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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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@Fulcanelli -- Since you are more familiarized with the DNA evidence, on a scale of one to ten, how does the DNA evidence rate for Sollecito and Knox?

You are asking for a simple answer? :) I don't think it can be given a rating, but it is serious because in terms of the clasp, it puts Raffaele in the room messing with Meredith after her death. That can only lead to the conclusion he was involved in the murder directly. This is also bad for Amanda as she claims Raffaele as her alibi.

With the knife, it's possibly slightly weaker. Not so much due to the DNA, but due to the stain of another knife on the bed. Yes, it's thought there were two knives but we don't have the 2nd knife. Although, the kitchen knife is part compensated for by being bolstered by certain other clues (it's being scrubbed, Raffaele's lie to cover it, Kokomani's witness testimony where he saw two knives, Amanda's DNA on the handle in a position that showed she held it in a grip for a stabbing motion and not cutting action, it's matching the fatal wound). However, what the real strength of both the clasp and knife is, is not really their individual merits, but their being viewed in the context of all the other case evidence. In short, when looking at everything combined, any judge is going to ask 'well, what is the probability of those two pieces of evidence coming about as a result of purely innocent reasons when viewed in the context of all the other evidence against them?'. I would say very low and that affords them a lot of strength.
 
However, what the real strength of both the clasp and knife is, is not really their individual merits, but their being viewed in the context of all the other case evidence. In short, when looking at everything combined, any judge is going to ask 'well, what is the probability of those two pieces of evidence coming about as a result of purely innocent reasons when viewed in the context of all the other evidence against them?'. I would say very low and that affords them a lot of strength.



Thanks for your reply, Fulcanelli.

I agree. When you add up all the circumstantial evidence and lack of credibility of the convicted trio, we can understand why they are now in jail.

I have just read that the Kercher DNA found in the knife tip is ''trace DNA''. Makes sense, since it was washed with bleach.
 
Trial reports

Trust me. Go back to the trial reports from that date.

I'd love to! Where can I find them?

That's a serious question. The only sources I know are PMF and TJMK, and I'm not finding "trial reports" at either site. Maybe they're there and I'm looking in the wrong places.

Also, I thought that Peter Quennell at TJMK was writing trial reports. Are you talking about actual transcripts rather than observers' summaries? Are they available somewhere in English?

Thanks. Any & all info will be appreciated.
 
RE: Lies.

I misremembered what was said about the lawyer's statement. What I read was this:



http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=121&p=7583&hilit=pressure+police+never+hit#p7583

While much of what is said on that board is good, conscientious and referenced, some is not. In order to be certain it is accurate I would need to find the source of the girgha quote: I have not yet, though I will keep looking. So can anyone else :)

But in relations to the conduct of the police questioning I do not think it is deniable that she lied and admitted she liked

Matthew Best: you are not convinced: and that is fair enough.

For me Knox told people that she was questioned for 14 hours (some reports say 9) without food, drink or rest. In court she said she was offered food and drink and she agreed that the questioning stopped at 1.45.

If you do not see that as an admission that she lied then we must leave it there. I cannot see it any other way


We have moved on from this but I did say I would keep looking for the confirmation that Knox's lawyer said she was not hit and I happened upon it again today. Some way down the page there is a video

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/10/assailant-was-one-and-only-one.html

The video is of the press conference her lawyer, Girgha, gave outide the court, as the PMF site claimed. It is in Italian (of course) but the site gives a translation below of the main points and it is as PMF reported. Note that PerugiaShock is a site partisan to the defence case: but I see no reason to dispute their translation. If we have any Italian speakers here that would of course be better yet
 
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The female flying squad had it in for her, no proof offered, just believe it

Fiona,

I remember Knox testifying in court that she was hit in the back of her head. Her lawyers did not take up the cue for some reason.

This is a report of Ghirga's teary final arguments on Dec.2. He does not mention any violence by police officers questioning Knox:

''Earlier he claimed women police officers involved in the Meredith Kercher murder investigation 'had it in' for Knox, who is the prime suspect in the case.

Defence lawyer Ghirga described the 'clash between women from the Perugia flying squad' and his client.

He said: 'They had it in for her just because she had condoms and a vibrator in her beauty case.'

He added that as a result Knox "had suffered as a result of this antagonism."

Mr Ghirga also described how officers had questioned Meredith's then boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi about their sex life and said it was 'outrageous and something we would never have dreamed of doing.'

He also added how 36 officers had been present during Knox's final questioning at the police station and he added: 'All those people signed the charge sheet and there was just one poor Amanda.''- DailyMail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...s-tears-claims-women-police-officers-her.html
 
The washing machine that did not bark in the morning

Pete needs to fix that. I think he got a misreport on that.

Lifted from contemporaneous discussion at PMF:

bolint Post subject: Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:29 pm



Two important things that were expected from the postal police officers but neither of them is reported:

- Hearing Raffaele's call to the Carabinieri
- Noticing the washing machine finishing its cycle

Of course bolint posted this before Quennell reported it, so he/she may have simply jumped the gun.

A vexing subject.
 
Mr Ghirga also described how officers had questioned Meredith's then boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi about their sex life and said it was 'outrageous and something we would never have dreamed of doing.'
Such as ... she occasionally got the idea first? :p

(This isn't a crack at Meredith, may she RIP, it's a crack at the chauvinism rampant among Italian males ... )
 
Lector said:
I'd love to! Where can I find them?

Go onto PMF and navigate in the past main discussion threads back to the date they gave their testimony. You'll find all the links to the media articles from that day's testimony (as well as the discussion and analyses of it).
 
Lector said:
Also, I thought that Peter Quennell at TJMK was writing trial reports. Are you talking about actual transcripts rather than observers' summaries? Are they available somewhere in English?

Actual 'transcripts' from the trial don't exist in the public domain. You have to rely on media reports. The rule of thumb, is rely on those journalists that report directly from the court room. So, your jounalist list is as follows:

Italian media (there are translations on PMF)

Andrea Vogt (Freelance...Seattle PI and The Independent)

Barbie Nadeau (Newsweek and The Daily Beast)

Nick Pisa (Freelance...The Daily Mail, Sky News, The Daily Telegraph, The Sun)

Ann Wise (ABC)
 
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Go onto PMF and navigate in the past main discussion threads back to the date they gave their testimony. You'll find all the links to the media articles from that day's testimony (as well as the discussion and analyses of it).

I'd started that process already, as you'll see above. Of course it's frustrating since some of the links are now dead.
 
Actual 'transcripts' from the trial don't exist in the public domain. You have to rely on media reports. The rule of thumb, is rely on those journalists that report directly from the court room. So, your jounalist list is as follows:

Italian media (there are translations on PMF)

Andrea Vogt (Freelance...Seattle PI and The Independent)

Barbie Nadeau (Newsweek and The Daily Beast)

Nick Pisa (Freelance...The Daily Mail, Sky News, The Daily Telegraph, The Sun)

Ann Wise (ABC)

These are good names to know. I'd somehow gotten the impresson that Quennell was reporting from the courtroom & Vogt & Nadeau weren't. I guess I had that backward. Thanks.
 
a review of some of the expert trial testimony

Stilicho,

In comment #651, you wrote
This intrigues me. The suggestion here is that Sollecito employed the wrong expert. Can you briefly contrast the major points Professor Hampikian would have used during the trial with those of A. Tagliabracci--the actual expert they employed?

(Source: http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtop...p=17212#p17212 )

A side-by-side comparison and contrast would help us understand why the defence failed in refuting the prosecution evidence.

Did they hire the wrong expert?
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ETA: You are correct about other DNA on the bra clasp. I could probably find the cite at PMF but you're right.
[end quote]

I would like to respond to your request that I summarize the similarities and differences between the discussion of the DNA at the trial versus the petition coauthored by Professor Hampikian and Dr. Johnson. I found a link at the site you referenced to a report coauthored by Professor Adriano Tagliabracci (http://www.istitutoaffarisociali.it...0a4daa67d625c63/indagini_genetico_forensi.pdf). Unfortunately, I do not speak Italian; therefore, I will not be able to execute your request as completely as I would like. Yet there are one or two references to RFU (relative fluorescence units) values of 150 and 50, and at least one reference to LCN.

I will try to summarize what I found on this long thread. Professor Tagliabracci found fault with the length of time (47 days) that the bra clasp was not in police custody. He criticized the number of times the clasp was handed from one technician to the next and put on the floor. He also specifically cited the insufficient changing of gloves and the touching of other objects as reasons to believe that cross contamination was possible. According to one poster, he “said ‘DNA has no wings, but can fly’ and may have been transported onto the bra with dust.” Elsewhere, his testimony alluded to the dust on the floor and the mat, which were under and over the clasp, respectively. He also brought up a “mis-interpretation of peaks” means the DNA on the piece of evidence is incompatible with Sollecito’s DNA.

The Perugia News Digest on 18 July 2009 reported the testimony
the examination of the bra-clasp followed incorrect protocols (4): in the collection of the evidence, in its analysis, and in interpretation (4): the evidence can be given no weight: ‘it cannot be considered as bona fide evidence” (4) “given the inappropriate and anomalous collection methodology” (3, 4) [end quote]

Many of these points are similar to those brought up in the petition. The petition claims that one cannot deduce how the DNA came to be on the clasp from how much is there. I do not know whether Professor Tagliabracci made this point or not. The only major objection Professor Tagliabracci raised that Professor Hampkinian did not is to question that the sample belonged to RS. Professor Hampkinian and Dr. Smith, on the other hand, do not seem to dispute that the DNA belonged to RS.

Although I could not find unambiguous reference to the knife in this thread, certain clues in the pdf document (references to RFU and LCN) suggest that he discussed it there. Professor Hampkinian’s petition treats the bra clasp and the knife with comments of roughly equal length. Professor Hampkinian, Dr. Smith, and their coauthors discuss the paradox of how the knife could be cleaned of DNA but not blood and express skepticism about whether this is possible. They also discuss the low signal-to-noise ratio of the peaks in the knife sample, the possibility of contamination, and the lack of publicly available .fsa files. Overall, I would describe the petition as covering more ground than Professor Tagliabracci, but I am not sure that the thread I read summarized all of his testimony, and I would like to know the contents of his report.

I do not have any reason to think that they hired the wrong expert. Please bear in mind that this comment is intended primarily as a summary; therefore, I suggest that people replying to this comment focus on whether it accurately summarizes the positions of Professors Tagliabracci and Hampkinian. I am particularly eager for people to address any omissions I have made or for someone to summarize Professor Tagliabracci’s report. A follow-up comment will be my attempt to evaluate the DNA data. Thank you for your patience when I attended to other matters.

Chris
 
I'd started that process already, as you'll see above. Of course it's frustrating since some of the links are now dead.

That's why some of the articles have been copied directly into the threads. It's frustrating, but some (only a small amount) of articles published are taken down at a later point by the publisher and no longer exist. Another word of warning...don't use 'Tinyurl'...it's convenient as it shortens long links, but the link expires if nobody clicks on it for 6 weeks. That means if someone tries to track back in old threads, Tinyurls probably won't work anymore. I'm thinking of banning them actually (on a site I moderate).
 
Interpretation of the DNA evidence

To all,

Here is my evaluation of DNA evidence in this case, along with an initial summary of where the main areas of disagreement are. I hope that in presenting this comment, I will have answered some questions that were put to me that I have neglected. I refer to myself as a DNA-critic and to those who generally accept the DNA evidence as DNA-advocates. I suggest leaving out citations and sources until we make sure that we know what the key areas of disagreement are.

The need for protocols in handling evidence. I would argue that if items are improperly collected, they should not be admitted as evidence. The reason is that if one allows them as evidence, there is no incentive to follow the protocols. This argument is more fundamental than arguments about routes of contamination. If one adopts the standard that improperly collected evidence should be allowed unless the opposition can show a specific means of transfer, this puts the onus where it does not belong, and sets the bar for excluding the evidence unreasonably high, IMO.

Areas of disagreement. DNA-advocates have argued that the police swore that proper protocols were followed. DNA-critics point to videos showing extensive handling of the clasp without disposable tools--what appear to be poor handling techniques--and to a photograph of the knife in a plastic bag.

The bra clasp. The clasp was found with dust and was handled with a glove that was either dusty or picked up dust from the clasp. A second route of transfer is that the glove might have picked up DNA from RS and others from the door or door handle. A third possibility is that contamination occurred while the clasp was in the possession of forensic technicians (see above).

I accept the statement of the nine DNA forensic scientists who signed the petition that the amount of DNA on the clasp gives no indication of whether it was direct physical contact or transfer. The presence of DNA from unidentified individuals raises additional questions. In concurrence with the petition, I do not find the presence of DNA to be convincing evidence that RS participated in this crime.

The areas of disagreement about the bra clasp. One DNA-advocate reported that the identities of the three other individuals contributing their DNA were Amanda and probably the two roommates. The DNA-critics believe that these identities are unknown. The second area of disagreement is whether or not the amount of DNA from RS indicates direct transfer. DNA-advocates find it difficult to believe that the bra clasp would be contaminated and yet no other items would show similar contamination. The DNA-critics respond that the best control experiment would have been to collect items in similar location to the clasp on the same day as it was collected, and this was apparently not done. One DNA-advocate denies the possibility of secondary transfer at all.

The knife. The first problem with the knife is that it was placed in a plastic bag, although it should have been placed in a cloth bag. The second problem with the knife is that it had no blood. The signers of the petition have argued that it is unlikely one could remove one with out removing the other. I find it plausible on the basis of simple chemical arguments that detergent would remove both and that bleach would destroy both.

The third problem with the knife is that the signal-to-noise ratio might have led the investigators to conclude that DNA could not reliably be said to be there. There seems to be no universal agreement at which signal-to-noise threshhold to reject a peak. A criterion recommended by one manufacturer of the relevant equipment recommends treating peaks below 150 RFUs (relative fluorescence units) with caution, and the most relaxed of which I am aware is to accept peaks above 40 RFUs. The signal-to-noise ratios for all 29 peaks fall below about 100 RFU in the electropherogram of the knife. Of the 29 peaks, 16 fall below 40 RFU. The more stringent the standard, the lower the chance of mistaking signal for random noise.

Areas of disagreement about the knife. DNA-advocates allege it was cleaned with bleach, but DNA-critics have documented that bleach destroys DNA. It seems to be agreed that bleach also destroys blood. Therefore, if bleach were used it would have to react with blood much more slowly than with DNA.

One DNA-advocate claims that there was no noise in the data. Another DNA-advocate may believe that the signal-to-noise ratios in this case are sufficient. The DNA-critics respond by noting that spectroscopy generally has finite S/N ratios, meaning that the noise is not zero. The S/N ratios of the fluorescence peaks are tabulated along the x-axis in Figure 1 of the petition. They can also be read by referring to the y-axis. The amount of noise can be estimated by looking at the squiggly stuff between each peak in Figure 1. It would be helpful to learn what criterion for peak rejection was typically employed in Dr. Stefanoni’s lab.

Lack of DNA from RS or AK on the victim. The timeline provided by Fulcanelli implies that whatever physical contact between RS or AK and the victim there was took place over a twenty minute period. If physical contact took place, their DNA should have been found on Meredith’s body.

Areas of disagreement about the lack of DNA. DNA-critics think the lack of much DNA is a significant hole in the prosecution’s case. DNA-advocates believe that the lack of DNA in the room found can be explained by cleanup and point to a paucity of documentation at this site concerning how much DNA one would expect to find on Meredith’s body.

Overall conclusions. DNA-advocates concur with the finding of the petition: “No credible scientific evidence has been presented to associate this kitchen knife with the murder of Meredith Kercher… DNA testing results described above could have been obtained even if no crime had occurred. As such, they do not constitute credible evidence that links Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to the murder of Meredith Kercher.”

Chris
 
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Haludes1 said:
I will try to summarize what I found on this long thread. Professor Tagliabracci found fault with the length of time (47 days) that the bra clasp was not in police custody.

If somewhere has been designated as a crime scene (as the cottage was) then it is sealed. By default, it and all it contains is thereby in police custody.

Why empasise the '47' days? Woild it matter more or less if it was 46 or 48 days? If the environment is sealed from entry, what does it matter how many days it was? The place was empty and DNA doesn't just get up and walk about on its own.

he Perugia News Digest on 18 July 2009 reported the testimony
the examination of the bra-clasp followed incorrect protocols (4): in the collection of the evidence, in its analysis, and in interpretation (4): the evidence can be given no weight: ‘it cannot be considered as bona fide evidence” (4) “given the inappropriate and anomalous collection methodology” (3, 4) [end quote]

But quoted 'who' as saying that? Not the judge, that's for sure. It wasn't the experts for the prosecution or the victims either, so who's left?

Many of these points are similar to those brought up in the petition. The petition claims that one cannot deduce how the DNA came to be on the clasp from how much is there. I do not know whether Professor Tagliabracci made this point or not.

In other words, they are arguing that if DNA is found anywhere it's meaningless, essentially? A sort of saying...using DNA as evidence is bunk, full stop?

Professor Hampkinian’s petition treats the bra clasp and the knife with comments of roughly equal length.

Professor Hampkinian gets paid to write what he writes! Now, if there was at least an ounce of independence in any of these people you keep quoting they may be worth some credence. They may have to others reading this thread, but not to me. Guns for hire are no authority.
 
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Halides:

Where did the DNA contamination come from that it wasn't on anything else tested? If it was in enough abundance to contaminate the bra clasp, then why was nothing else even remotely contaminated?
 
Halides:

Where did the DNA contamination come from that it wasn't on anything else tested? If it was in enough abundance to contaminate the bra clasp, then why was nothing else even remotely contaminated?

What other items were collected at this same time as the bra clasp?
 
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