Why Do We Spend $34 Billion in Alternative Medicine?

[WitchyWoman]

drkitten, so is it safe to assume you are a doctor?

Well as a doctor then you should be well aware of the 'drugs' that got their start from herbs. Where would we be without Deadly nightshade or belladonna, white willow, rosey periwinkle, foxglove, quinine, or all the alkaloids produced from the poppy.

As far as your reference to alchemy, comical. I never said that all things evolved and continued on. that is the beauty of life, we are ever changing and learning. We once thought that lobotomies and electric shock therapy was cutting edge by we certainly don't now.

(A classic example of that is willow bark, which is inferior in all respects to aspirin, ibuprofen, or acetomenophen.)

White Willow Bark was the basis for the synthesis of aspirin.

 

[Mojo]

White Willow Bark was the basis for the synthesis of aspirin.

Indeed it was, although aspirin does not allow the patient the full experience of natural healthy side-effects.

 

[WitchyWoman]

Really? So aspirin has no side effects? LOL

 

[drkitten]

drkitten, so is it safe to assume you are a doctor?

You can make any assumptions you like.

Well as a doctor then you should be well aware of the 'drugs' that got their start from herbs. Where would we be without Deadly nightshade or belladonna, white willow, rosey periwinkle, foxglove, quinine, or all the alkaloids produced from the poppy.

And I am indeed well aware of them. Foxglove is a good example; people used to die routinely from foxglove tea, before the active principle (digitoxin) was identified, synthesized, and standardized in potency.

As far as your reference to alchemy, comical. I never said that all things evolved and continued on. that is the beauty of life, we are ever changing and learning. We once thought that lobotomies and electric shock therapy was cutting edge by we certainly don't now.

But we do think that foxglove and willow bark are safe and effective medicines? Well, some people do. And those who do, are wrong.

White Willow Bark was the basis for the synthesis of aspirin.

Yes, I'm well aware of that, too, which is why I used it as an example. It's also neither safe nor effective, which is why the medical profession has used aspirin for the past century (and acetomenophen for the past two decades) in preference. White willow bark is a classic example of a failed herbal remedy that has been overtaken by actual science.

 

[Mojo]

Really? So aspirin has no side effects? LOL

Did I say it has no side-effects?

 

[WitchyWoman]

And I am indeed well aware of them. Foxglove is a good example; people used to die routinely from foxglove tea, before the active principle (digitoxin) was identified, synthesized, and standardized in potency.

routinely? Can you source that please? I'm sure it did not kill as many as the approved VIOXX. This is precisely why people should go to an herbalist before taking herbs. Just like taking synthetic drugs without consulting a doctor.

But we do think that foxglove and willow bark are safe and effective medicines? Well, some people do. And those who do, are wrong.

Quite wrong actually. They are very effective if you know what you're doing.

which is why the medical profession has used aspirin for the past century (and acetomenophen for the past two decades) in preference. White willow bark is a classic example of a failed herbal remedy that has been overtaken by actual science.

Again so far from the truth. It is still widely used by those who are educated in its properties.

 

[WitchyWoman]

Mojo, no you didn't, hence my question. I don't believe in alluding to things, I believe in having the balls to come right out and say what I mean and believe.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Mojo, no you didn't, hence my question. I don't believe in alluding to things, I believe in having the balls to come right out and say what I mean and believe.

<ahem>

Really? So aspirin has no side effects? LOL

 

[skeptsci]

Most of the comments support alternative medicine. "Big pharma..." and "it works because it worked for me..." and "the wisdom of Chinese medicine".

I was hoping somebody smarter and more confident than me would add some skeptical comments.

Here's an argument:
There is no logical reason to assume that people that lived in the ancient times were wiser than those living today,
It's a clear fact that people living today are extremely more knowledgeable about the nature of living organisms than those in the ancient times
Today the experience on how to treat the human body is the most extensive ever.
Conclusion: there is no logical reason to believe ancient "medicine" could be as efficient as temporary medicine let alone even a bit more effective.
Still it's people nature to believe and the "placebo effect" follows. Sometimes (in 25-30%), this effect do give people temporary relief.

 

[Mojo]

Mojo, no you didn't, hence my question. I don't believe in alluding to things, I believe in having the balls to come right out and say what I mean and believe.

So why the "Really?" and the "LOL"? They made your question look kind of rhetorical.

One of the reasons that people consider aspirin to be superior to salicylic acid (the active component of willow bark) is that it causes less in the way of side-effects.

 

[drkitten]

routinely? Can you source that please? I'm sure it did not kill as many as the approved VIOXX.

Of course not. There weren't as many people to kill.

They are very effective if you know what you're doing.

And, ladies and gentlemen, that is why people die from them. Since "if you know what you are doing" can only be determined after-the-fact (hey, this patient didn't die!), and there's no way in advance to determine a person's qualifications.

Of course, there's a good reason for this. The concentration of digitoxin -- or any active chemical, for that matter -- will vary widely from sample to sample. Any druggie can tell you that; some "weed" is simply better than others. You can't simply look at a dime bag and tell how good it is, and you similarly can't look at a foxglove plant and tell me whether this will brew particularly strong tea or not.

And digitoxin is a very, very scary drug. More accurately, there is a very narrow window between the therapeutic dose and the effective one. A window that can routinely be crossed by natural variations in strength.

Again so far from the truth. It is still widely used by those who are educated in its properties.

It's still widely used, but it's neither as safe nor as effective as aspirin.

 

[T.A.M.]

I think you mean a narrow window between the therapeutic and toxic doses.

TAM

 

[Mojo]

So why the "Really?" and the "LOL"? They made your question look kind of rhetorical.

I see that quixotecoyote made my point rather more succinctly.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

And digitoxin is a very, very scary drug. More accurately, there is a very narrow window between the therapeutic dose and the effective one. A window that can routinely be crossed by natural variations in strength.

<snip>

I'm starting to think Dr Kitten is a very, very scary person.

What's your day job again?

 

[WitchyWoman]

And, ladies and gentlemen, that is why people die from them. Since "if you know what you are doing" can only be determined after-the-fact (hey, this patient didn't die!), and there's no way in advance to determine a person's qualifications.

That is a blantant lie. If we follow your line of thinking then Doctors have no idea what they are doing until after the fact as well. Qualifications can be checked. If they are licensed, just like any MD.

 

[WitchyWoman]

routinely? Can you source that please? I'm sure it did not kill as many as the approved VIOXX.
Of course not. There weren't as many people to kill.

Foxglove is still used today. There is the same amount of people as when VIOXX was killing people routinely, so I'll wait for your source.

 

[WitchyWoman]

Oddly, I was accused of sarcasm alluding me. I would think it was accepted in the forum. I have made my position quite clear, and have insinuated nothing. I genuinely want you to prove that aspirin has no side effects. You can't, but I'll await enlightenment..

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Oddly, I was accused of sarcasm alluding me. I would think it was accepted in the forum. I have made my position quite clear, and have insinuated nothing. I genuinely want you to prove that aspirin has no side effects. You can't, but I'll await enlightenment..

Where was it claimed that aspirin has *no* side effects?

Some of the side effects of aspirin are useful in their own right.

 

[Mojo]

I genuinely want you to prove that aspirin has no side effects. You can't, but I'll await enlightenment..

Why do you expect someone to prove this? It isn't as if anyone has claimed that this is the case.

 

[WitchyWoman]

Indeed it was, although aspirin does not allow the patient the full experience of natural healthy side-effects

This comment insinuates that it does not have side effects. As I suspected, you've turned tail.