Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[stilicho]

Do you guys remember that Knox's desk lamp was at Kercher's room, on the floor, between the bed and the victim. Could that lamp be used to spot fibers and fingerprints?

Nobody knows why AK's lamp was locked inside Meredith's room. From the trial, though, it's evident that the overhead light in AK's room did not work so it would be unusual for it to be there unless it had been moved by the individual(s) who later locked it inside. It cannot have been in there the night before the murder.

It's another in a large number of problems in the suspects' story and in their rushed attempts to clean up the cottage before anyone showed up.

I still remember, from my youth, having my Mom be able to recreate an entire day's worth of elastic band fights and wrestling on the living room couch from finding a single elastic concealed from our cleanup behind a radiator and an unusual mark on the underside of the couch cushion. She isn't even a member of the Perugia Flying Squad either! Although it's only anecdotal (even frivolous), it's a part of my point that a determined investigator can reconstruct a crimescene from anomalies that the perpetrator wouldn't even think of looking for.

 

[Fiona]

Not at all.
But Im not under the impression that they were methodically swabbing the whole apartment looking for traces of Sollecito.
That would have been pointless, when they were already aware he was a regular visitor.

Maybe. I am not currently persuaded and for this reason: they specifically stated they had only found his dna in one other location. This was a forensic team investigating a murder. If they had not checked for it at all then you would have a point; but they obviously did.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Not at all.
But Im not under the impression that they were methodically swabbing the whole apartment looking for traces of Sollecito.
That would have been pointless, when they were already aware he was a regular visitor.

Of course they were going to swab the whole apartment, there'd just been a brutal murder there. In any case, you don't swab 'looking' for an individual person, you swab to see what's there and then compare the result to the national database and of course...your suspects.

 

[scissorhands]

Of course they were going to swab the whole apartment, there'd just been a brutal murder there. In any case, you don't swab 'looking' for an individual person, you swab to see what's there and then compare the result to the national database and of course...your suspects.

You are wrong.
Unless they had an unlimited amount of time and an unlimited amount of laboratory staff of course.
They will swab areas they find interesting and likely spots, and not the whole apartment.

 

[piktor]

Not ''suspects'' but convicts

...It's another in a large number of problems in the suspects' story...

...it's a part of my point that a determined investigator can reconstruct a crimescene from anomalies that the perpetrator wouldn't even think of looking for.

I wrote earlier today that police have priceless knowledge and experience. For them this case looks totally different than it looks to us, civilians.

We should not assume this crime is as obscure to the police as it seems to us.

 

[Fulcanelli]

You are wrong.
Unless they had an unlimited amount of time and an unlimited amount of laboratory staff of course.
They will swab areas they find interesting and likely spots, and not the whole apartment.

I didn't think you'd take me literally...I didn't mean they swabbed every inch of the place. But as you say, they would have swabbed everywhere of importance and to use your term...'the likely spots'. But as it happens, they did have more time then their colleagues in say, the UK or US, considering they had the crime scene sealed off for over a year, so if they needed to they had plenty of time to perform whatever tests they wished.

 

[stilicho]

Ah, that kind of testimony.
I thought you meant someone reliable.
So Guede said Sollecito was wearing this while he attacked Meredith?

Another detail that Kokomani included in his testimony was the AK's green bag thought to have carried the kitchen knife. I can't find Guede mentioning that accessory, too.

I hope by now that you, MB, JihadJane, and NT are starting to understand the sheer complexity of the case and massive amount of evidence investigated and used in the case.

Even though I explained it would take months to read through PMF, there is a lot of information to be found simply by taking what you don't understand being said here and using the Search function over there to find out more about it.

@Fulcanelli: If you are actually over here from PMF then welcome because I found a lot of people there with encyclopaedic knowledge of the case. If you're just an innocent bystander then welcome to the JREF as well!

 

[Fulcanelli]

@Fulcanelli: If you are actually over here from PMF then welcome because I found a lot of people there with encyclopaedic knowledge of the case. If you're just an innocent bystander then welcome to the JREF as well!

Thank you

 

[stilicho]

We should not assume this crime is as obscure to the police as it seems to us.

Piktor, having read as much as I have about it on PMF, there is little likelihood the police were nearly as confused as we are looking at it as amateurs from the outside in. Once reading about the Postal Police finding AK and RS at the scene of a murder inside a locked suite, and the evidence that AK's first call was to her roommate, followed by a middle-of-the-night call to her mother in Seattle, and knowing they kept both AK and RS under surveillance for three full days, I doubt the Perugia police could have been anywhere near as confused as we are here. And they were relentless in their pursuit of the fleeing Rudy Guede as soon as they could, too.

Given the deliberate attempts by AK and RS to confound and distract them, the authorities performed a stellar job in pinning down the investigation. They suspected AK and RS from the start and then came the gruelling job of proving it through forensics, statements, and generally a tireless and thankless effort spanning weeks.

I'll never forget the victims (Meredith Kercher *and* Patrick Lumumba) who suffered at the hands of three criminals who cared nothing of others and remain intransigent to this day.

 

[Kestrel]

You are wrong.
Unless they had an unlimited amount of time and an unlimited amount of laboratory staff of course.
They will swab areas they find interesting and likely spots, and not the whole apartment.

It's been mentioned in this thread that the police did a couple hundred DNA tests. That's not nearly enough for a complete apartment.

 

[Fiona]

More than 400 is my recollection. I cannot remember the real total but I know it was above 400

 

[piktor]

19 judges have favored the prosecution

...having read as much as I have about it on PMF, there is little likelihood the police were nearly as confused as we are looking at it as amateurs from the outside in.

I'll never forget the victims (Meredith Kercher *and* Patrick Lumumba) who suffered at the hands of three criminals who cared nothing of others and remain intransigent to this day.

We should also keep in mind competent judges, prosecutors and technicians are sorting this out and they have succeeded, despite this being a ''weak'' case. This is one of the most relevant markers. The defense and the convicted have gone before several judicial instances and have been defeated each time.

We should also rember this is not a match of wits. The 9 scientists and their opinion is nothing compared to Meredith's lost life and Mr. Lumumba's ruined business.

These are awful deeds that need avenging. In modern society the judicial process has pointed to those responsible and has righteously incarcerated them.

Now, the same system allows these three convicts to appeal and re-try their cases, if they so wish. They cannot ask for any more fairness because there is none.

 

[Fiona]

I do not agree this is a weak case, Piktor.

It seems to me that there are many, many elements which make up the evidence. The influence of the media and the tv portrayal of crime has led to some very strange expectations and beliefs which are worrying

What is true is that the case has been reviewed in detail by many different professionals and those who have seen all of the evidence (including the lay members of the jury) have accepted it.

As I have read about it it seems to me that I am also persuaded and I did not start out with a view of any kind.

When you focus down on any individual part of the evidence it is not strong on its own: but as was mentioned by quadraginta many page ago it is the accumulation which is so persuasive. I cannot think this is all that unusual in serious cases: indeed I know it is not unusual even in much less serious ones.

We need to keep in mind that the real world is muddy: and that we do not get the strong narrative line and the background shots and information seen in fiction. Would that we could

 

[Kestrel]

We should also keep in mind competent judges, prosecutors and technicians are sorting this out and they have succeeded, despite this being a ''weak'' case. This is one of the most relevant markers. The defense and the convicted have gone before several judicial instances and have been defeated each time.

We should also rember this is not a match of wits. The 9 scientists and their opinion is nothing compared to Meredith's lost life and Mr. Lumumba's ruined business.

These are awful deeds that need avenging. In modern society the judicial process has pointed to those responsible and has righteously incarcerated them.

Now, the same system allows these three convicts to appeal and re-try their cases, if they so wish. They cannot ask for any more fairness because there is none.

JREF is supposed to be a skeptics forum. What you have presented starts with an appeal to authority and ends with an appeal to emotion. Both of these are logical fallacies.

Regardless of the guilt or innocence of the accused, it's impossible for anyone who understands the science of DNA to look at the video of the bra clasp being collected and not conclude that the clasp was handled in a way that provided plenty of opportunities for contamination. The 9 scientists who pointed that out were absolutely correct.

 

[piktor]

We need to keep in mind that the real world is muddy: and that we do not get the strong narrative line and the background shots and information seen in fiction. Would that we could

I write ''weak'' in quotations because lawyers on TV say the evidence is so, Fiona.

For me, the evidence is overwhelming. As you say, one element does not lead to conviction but there are so many elements pointing to the convicted that the doubts are blown away by the facts present.

I don't know if you have noticed, but Knox/Sollecito are masters of obfuscation. A big part of their strategy is to downplay facts as the are presented or simply stop talking to create more mystery where there is darkness and clarity is needed. The housemates and Kercher friends were quickly let go by the police because they were believable and had solid alibis.

Police can spot a funny story and act on it.

If you read the Micheli sentence on Guede, you can see what elements the judge used to convict. It is a narrative based on factual elements that put together lead to a conclusion of guilt.

 

[stilicho]

Now, the same system allows these three convicts to appeal and re-try their cases, if they so wish. They cannot ask for any more fairness because there is none.

I noticed a lot of difference between the Italian justice system and its people, language, and culture just from reading about this case, piktor. Even to the minutiae such as the Italian words for "closed" and "locked" are often used interchangeably (referencing the status of Meredith's bedroom door) and up to the fact that the Italian equivalent of the Supreme Court hears more than 100 times as many appeals as their UK or Canadian equivalent.

As someone at PMF once said, if you wanted to commit a serious crime and get away with it, then Italy would actually be almost the best place in the world to do it. They have fewer incarcerated people per capita than Canada* and, I believe, the second lowest in Europe next to Denmark. They don't have capital punishment.

I have really come to admire a lot about Italy just from this case. It's the kind of place I might easily consider visiting or living in.

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* Incarcerated persons per 100,000 population:

Italy: 98
Canada: 131
USA: 738

 

[stilicho]

JREF is supposed to be a skeptics forum. What you have presented starts with an appeal to authority and ends with an appeal to emotion. Both of these are logical fallacies.

Regardless of the guilt or innocence of the accused, it's impossible for anyone who understands the science of DNA to look at the video of the bra clasp being collected and not conclude that the clasp was handled in a way that provided plenty of opportunities for contamination. The 9 scientists who pointed that out were absolutely correct.

OK, once again Kestrel, you are only arguing that Sollecito's DNA expert is incompetent. Don't wag your finger at new members unless you're able to explain why Sollecito's expert was unable to prove this in court.

You yourself are appealing to authority by claiming nine stooges who present their junk science on the internet without any access to the data outweigh the DNA expert that Sollecito's team produced. How do you explain this?

 

[Fiona]

I am obviously not following your point Kestrel.

If I pick up an object from the floor in a room which has been closed for 47 days I will pick up dust as I do it. In fact if I do anything at all with my hands in such a room it is likely I will pick up dust.

In order for that dust to contaminate an object with DNA that DNA first has to be there. I still do not understand where it is supposed to come from.

Sollecito's DNA was not in the room
There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the gloves were not new
There is no reason to suppose that the team got changed across town in the lab with the samples; or that they visited him in jail before they went to the scene; or that they searched his house first; or that they were in contact with any other source of his DNA.
The amount of DNA on the clasp was "abundant" ( which in this field actually means a sample size of 1400: a sample testable by normal means is 100 and up)
I just do not see what it is that makes you think contamination is possible, much less likely

 

[lionking]

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* Incarcerated persons per 100,000 population:

Italy: 98
Canada: 131
USA: 738

Some African nations have much lower rates. I'm off to Nigeria.

Seriously, I think the adversarial legal system is superior to the inquisitorial system of Italy and other nations, but this is probably a topic for another thread.

 

[Fiona]

JREF is supposed to be a skeptics forum. What you have presented starts with an appeal to authority

That is nonsense, Kestrel. Read your link. You have misunderstood the nature of an appeal to authority fallacy.

and ends with an appeal to emotion

That is arguable I suppose in respect of the second last line: but it is not certainly an appeal to emotion if taken in context.

Those are just cheap shots and not worthy of you