Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[BobTheDonkey]

Is it? That is what I would have assumed but it is what I am now trying to clarify. Do you have any information about how this works, BobTheDonkey?

I have no real evidence other than what we've seen/heard about how clean the apartment was (besides, perhaps, Kercher's room). In this case, the lack of evidence is intriguing.

The knife in Sollecito's apt, for instance, shows signs of being cleaned in an extreme/unusual manner (from one of your first posts). While not a clincher, given that the knife had barely any of Meredith's blood and Knox's DNA with no really valid alibi for how Meredith came into contact with it, it certainly appears that someone cleaned the knife vigorously with bleach attempting to remove traces of Meredith's blood.

The distinct lack of fingerprints in Knox's room. The distinct lack of Sollecito's DNA in an entire house that he had visited multiple times.

The lack of DNA on Meredith's body, the only DNA evidence found was of Guede's DNA inside, where it couldn't be scrubbed off.

We know that the bloody footprints in the hallway as well as the blood splatters in the bathroom were cleaned and only revealed with luminol (excepting the bathmat that Knox and Sollecito perhaps hadn't quite managed to clean before the Postal Police arrived).

There's also the finding of Meredith's clothes in the washer/drier, actively running at the time the Police arrived.

Each one on it's own isn't all that compelling, but when put together...we find evidence of a (failed) cleanup.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Halides1 is relying on one disgraceful site for his information, so far as I can tell. No one who was sincerely interested in this case would do that.

He's relying on Mark Waterbury who is FOA and is a central part of the FOA propaganda campaign And by the way, he is not a geneticist, micro biologist or a forensic scientist. It isn't even his field.

 

[stilicho]

Scissorhands,

I agree. It is only slightly less amazing than what Nifong asserted in the DL case: http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson212.html

Chris

This isn't the first time you've tried to create a confusion in contributors' minds by bringing the Duke lacrosse team case into this. Can you provide a list of the similarities and distinctions between the two cases?

Your own link explains that DNA evidence was central to that case:

"In the Duke case, the DNA was central to everything, not peripheral, as many would think."

In the Perugia case, the DNA is simply a small clump amid an enormous mound of evidence. (There's your first distinction; you may supply others at your leisure.)

 

[stilicho]

He's relying on Mark Waterbury who is FOA and is a central part of the FOA propaganda campaign And by the way, he is not a geneticist, micro biologist or a forensic scientist. It isn't even his field.

How does this not surprise me?

 

[scissorhands]

I have no real evidence other than what we've seen/heard about how clean the apartment was (besides, perhaps, Kercher's room). In this case, the lack of evidence is intriguing.

The knife in Sollecito's apt, for instance, shows signs of being cleaned in an extreme/unusual manner (from one of your first posts). While not a clincher, given that the knife had barely any of Meredith's blood and Knox's DNA with no really valid alibi for how Meredith came into contact with it, it certainly appears that someone cleaned the knife vigorously with bleach attempting to remove traces of Meredith's blood.

The distinct lack of fingerprints in Knox's room. The distinct lack of Sollecito's DNA in an entire house that he had visited multiple times.

The lack of DNA on Meredith's body, the only DNA evidence found was of Guede's DNA inside, where it couldn't be scrubbed off.

We know that the bloody footprints in the hallway as well as the blood splatters in the bathroom were cleaned and only revealed with luminol (excepting the bathmat that Knox and Sollecito perhaps hadn't quite managed to clean before the Postal Police arrived).

There's also the finding of Meredith's clothes in the washer/drier, actively running at the time the Police arrived.

Each one on it's own isn't all that compelling, but when put together...we find evidence of a (failed) cleanup.

How did they manage to remove their own DNA so scrupulously from the murder room, while only leaving Guedes DNA, with a mop and bucket?
Were they feeling lucky?

 

[Fiona]

Fingerprints are in abundance in someones home, their usefulness in criminal investigations depends on the surface they are imprinted on.
Certain surfaces produce better results, others just a smudge.

I think the 9/11 hijackers were partly identified by DNA on their toothbrushes in hotel rooms?
If Sollecito had spent any time at that apartment,and it is known he did, there would be a background noise of Sollecito DNA from various sources.
The fact that this is apparently missing, apart from on two items, can only mean that the investigators didnt check for it.
This makes the argument that it was only found on the bra clasp and a fag butt as a claim for his participation in the murder, a bit worrying.

But this is not so Scissorhands. Only 9 fingerprints were found in Knox's room and none were useable because they were smeared. Only one useable fingerprint of hers was found in the whole house: on a water glass in the kitchen.

It is not that they did not search: they found Guerde's fingerprints in the victim's room: they obviously checked in Knox's room for they can attest to the number of prints there: they did not find any prints on the cutlery in the kitchen so they clearly did not just check the water glass.

Yet when asked at the court if this was unusual they said no

Similarly with the DNA. The checked every object in Knox's room: Sollecito's DNA was not there. Even though he was in the room after the postal police arrived and this is attested by the police and several witnesses. If DNA was so abundant and easy to leave it would be there. Or so I would have thought. It was not.

Do you not find it curious that this contamination, which we are asked to accept on this one object, is nowhere in evidence. There is none of Sollecito's DNA on any other object tested except the one cigarette but?

I originally thought this was evidence of a massive clean up: but maybe DNA just does not get scattered about in the way I had assumed.

 

[stilicho]

How did they manage to remove their own DNA so scrupulously from the murder room, while only leaving Guedes DNA, with a mop and bucket?

Were they feeling lucky?

Did they use the mop and bucket in Meredith's room? Where did you get this from?

 

[scissorhands]

but maybe DNA just does not get scattered about in the way I had assumed.

Or maybe there is a limit to what the police will bother taking swabs of, particularly when they arent interested in producing a control sample.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

How did they manage to remove their own DNA so scrupulously from the murder room, while only leaving Guedes DNA, with a mop and bucket?
Were they feeling lucky?

My understanding is that Guede's DNA was found inside Meredith, not on anything in the room. I could be mistaken though.

 

[Fulcanelli]

How did they manage to remove their own DNA so scrupulously from the murder room, while only leaving Guedes DNA, with a mop and bucket?
Were they feeling lucky?

You're assuming it was there to remove in the first place. It's more difficult to leave DNA then you might think and requires either bodily fluids (sweat, saliva etc) or direct vigorous contact involving 'friction'. In the scenario, Amanda isn't even touching Meredith anyway (instead, she is torturing her with the knife, therefore the contact is with the knife and not Meredith) and while Raffaele in that scenario is helping hold Meredith, it's not a 'rule' that he 'must' have left DNA. There also may have been gloves. This is not far fetched, since he was witnessed to have been wearing a swimming cap during the attack. The only reason for wearing that is so he didn't leave forensic evidence (as well as possibly as a disguise). It makes little sense to go to the effort of wearing a swimming cap and not wear gloves. Of course, as it stands though he did indeed leave DNA on the victim (the bra clasp).

 

[piktor]

This is evidence of EXTREME CLEANUP

My biggest reservation is said evidence of "Extreme Cleanup".

How can you clean out your DNA, fibers and fingerprints but leave a third person's evidence in? Was it a simple case of luck that Knox/Sollecito did not leave ''any trace'' near the slain victim, other than the bra clasp, at the victim's room?

Do you guys remember that Knox's desk lamp was at Kercher's room, on the floor, between the bed and the victim. Could that lamp be used to spot fibers and fingerprints?

 

[Fulcanelli]

My understanding is that Guede's DNA was found inside Meredith, not on anything in the room. I could be mistaken though.

Guede's DNA was found on the bra (the main body of the bra, not the clasp), Meredith's left sleeve and of course inside the victim. Those were the only places in the room.

 

[scissorhands]

This is not far fetched, since he was witnessed to have been wearing a swimming cap during the attack.

Ok, you have got some link for this witness testimony?
Its new to me.

 

[Fiona]

Or maybe there is a limit to what the police will bother taking swabs of, particularly when they arent interested in producing a control sample.

Do you have any reason to disbelieve their testimony?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Do you guys remember that Knox's desk lamp was at Kercher's room, on the floor, between the bed and the victim. Could that lamp be used to spot fibers and fingerprints?

It was on the floor between the door and the end of Meredith's bed. Meredith's lamp was on the floor at the head of her bed, in between her bed and bedside cupboard. The prosecution believe these were used in order to help effect a partial clean-up in Meredith's room after the murder.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Ok, you have got some link for this witness testimony?
Its new to me.

Just look for Rudy Guede's testimony. He described Raffaele as wearing a red and white swimming cap (back in 2008). As a result the police returned to Raffaele's apartment and removed a swimming cap (red and white) that matched the description. Kokomani in his testimony related that Raffaele was wearing a 'strange' kind of cap. Make of it what you will.

 

[scissorhands]

Do you have any reason to disbelieve their testimony?

Not at all.
But Im not under the impression that they were methodically swabbing the whole apartment looking for traces of Sollecito.
That would have been pointless, when they were already aware he was a regular visitor.

 

[scissorhands]

Just look for Rudy Guede's testimony. He described Raffaele as wearing a red and white swimming cap (back in 2008). As a result the police returned to Raffaele's apartment and removed a swimming cap (red and white) that matched the description. Kokomani in his testimony related that Raffaele was wearing a 'strange' kind of cap. Make of it what you will.

Ah, that kind of testimony.
I thought you meant someone reliable.
So Guede said Sollecito was wearing this while he attacked Meredith?

 

[piktor]

Conviction by a million little blows

The prosecution believe these were used in order to help effect a partial clean-up in Meredith's room after the murder

So, there you have it. Police recognized a cleanup operation and told so in court.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Ok, you have got some link for this witness testimony?

Here, I've entered a search for you on it on this site =1]HERE

and HERE