Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[BobTheDonkey]

This part of the timeline seems really important. It might be interesting to delve into the specific evidence used to come up with this. For example 23:35 is based on the DNA on the bra strap? Or something else?

I still think the idea of them raping her together seems odd. Did Amanda or Sollecito have anything in their past that would lead up to this kind of thing?

As I just posted, Knox has pulled a "rape" prank on a friend/roommate in the past (can't recall off hand which it was, just recall that it was someone she knew). While I'm all about pranking friends, this kind of "prank" is a bit too extreme...

 

[Fulcanelli]

Don't forget that Knox has pulled a "rape" prank on a friend/roommate from college before, so the Prosecution timeline really wasn't that far out of character. It's been posted here before, I can see if I can find the reference if anyone wants it...

My personal bias is a lean towards this being a prank/sexual assault gone massively wrong. As it goes, I think I just don't want to admit to myself that people are really that twisted.

Was the autopsy able to give a relative time from death to when the body was moved? If so, was that incorporated into the Prosecution timeline?

Hi BobTheDonkey. Well, it must be remembered that the 'Seattle prank' has not been verified fully, least of all in a court room, but it would appear so, yes.

The body was verified as having been moved some time after death die ti the fact that the blood on the floor had dried leaving the imprint of the victim's shoulder and bra strap (hence why, aside from one strap being soaked in blood, why it's know the bra was removed some time after death), as well as lividity on the shoulder where her body originally rested before being moved. This reveals a considerable time gap between TOD and the body being moved, fully undressed and...'arranged'. The only purpose for doing this can only have been to emphasise a sexual attack, even to suggest a rape (in the English understanding of the term).

 

[piktor]

Was the autopsy able to give a relative time from death to when the body was moved? If so, was that incorporated into the Prosecution timeline?

The only timeframe is that it was ''after death'' because the duvet did not absorb any blood. Blood has to be in liquid state to impregnate cloth. It did not. There are curved blood markings on the floor that describe the body's travel over the floor. Prosecution cannot say when Knox/Sollecito went back to murder scene and clean up. They do discard Guede as present in these actions.

 

[Kestrel]

This part of the timeline seems really important. It might be interesting to delve into the specific evidence used to come up with this. For example 23:35 is based on the DNA on the bra strap? Or something else?

This part of the timeline is based mostly on speculation. For example, there is no evidence that links Sollecito to a specific knife or using any knife on the victim. Or evidence that either Sollecito or Amanda are responsible for Meredith's head wound.

 

[Fulcanelli]

This part of the timeline is based mostly on speculation. For example, there is no evidence that links Sollecito to a specific knife or using any knife on the victim. Or evidence that either Sollecito or Amanda are responsible for Meredith's head wound.

Hi Kestrel. Well, the wounds were inflicted with two different knives and an eye witness put knives in the hands of Amanda and Raffaele (two knives) just before the murder.

 

[piktor]

This part of the timeline is based mostly on speculation. For example, there is no evidence that links Sollecito to a specific knife or using any knife on the victim. Or evidence that either Sollecito or Amanda are responsible for Meredith's head wound.

Yes, it is a ''theory'' and nothing more.

The prosecution does say K/S started the actions and Guede joined after a visit to the bathroom.

Circumstantial cases have to have a theory to explain what might have happened. The prosecution did not use Guede as a witness because he is not believable.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DNA data files

Hello Everyone,

The petition from the DNA forensic experts asked for the release of the .fst files, which had not been done as of the writing of the letter. It appears that their asking for these files is not an unreasonable thing to do (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbTSu-g16Kd-SAKt4lDqAumu0tSZDA). This site says, “Copies of all data files used and created in the course of performing tests and analyzing data in this
case, including .fsa files, if applicable. These files should include all data necessary to
independently reanalyze the raw data.”

Chris

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Control experiment

And yet nothing else tested was cross contaminated with his DNA?

BobTheDonkey,

I think that one ought to do control experiments of the kind described below.

http://www.sciencespheres.com/2009/10/methods-of-polizia-pseudoscientificaa.html

Control experiments to check for this would have been simple. The clasp was retrieved from a pile of debris left by the fastidious investigators in Meredith's room, shown in the picture at the right. Testing a few other items from that pile to see if they, too, had picked up DNA dust from the floor would tell us whether there was anything special about the clasp. Of course, that wasn't done.

So we have “Raffaele's DNA was found on Meredith's bra clasp,” rather than, “Raffaele's DNA, along with DNA from lots of other people, was found at various random locations throughout Amanda's apartment, which he visited several times before the murder.” The first phrase sounds incriminating. The second, accurate phrase, shows how meaningless this test result is without a control experiment.
[end quote]

In response to a question from Fiona, We know from the appropriate video that there was also dust on the glove of the person who collected the clasp, which seems to run counter to the spirit of the DNA guidelines to which I have linked previously.

Without knowing the identities of the three others whose DNA is on the clasp, I would ask how they could be excluded as possible suspects.

Chris

 

[BobTheDonkey]

BobTheDonkey,

I think that one ought to do control experiments of the kind described below.

http://www.sciencespheres.com/2009/10/methods-of-polizia-pseudoscientificaa.html

Control experiments to check for this would have been simple. The clasp was retrieved from a pile of debris left by the fastidious investigators in Meredith's room, shown in the picture at the right. Testing a few other items from that pile to see if they, too, had picked up DNA dust from the floor would tell us whether there was anything special about the clasp. Of course, that wasn't done.

So we have “Raffaele's DNA was found on Meredith's bra clasp,” rather than, “Raffaele's DNA, along with DNA from lots of other people, was found at various random locations throughout Amanda's apartment, which he visited several times before the murder.” The first phrase sounds incriminating. The second, accurate phrase, shows how meaningless this test result is without a control experiment.
[end quote]

In response to a question from Fiona, We know from the appropriate video that there was also dust on the glove of the person who collected the clasp, which seems to run counter to the spirit of the DNA guidelines to which I have linked previously.

Without knowing the identities of the three others whose DNA is on the clasp, I would ask how they could be excluded as possible suspects.

Chris

Ahh, but if his DNA was so freely floating around as you've claimed, why was it not on anything else that was tested? There were 400+ swabs tested, that's 400+ swabs that work as controls.

Let's see, 400+ swabs didn't show any signs of his DNA, 1 that did. I'd say that 1 that did is pretty conclusive.

Again, how could only the bra clasp be cross-contaminated? Are you saying the door wasn't the source of the DNA? Or are you claiming that of all the places the DNA on the door could have contaminated, it managed to contaminate solely the clasp and none of the other 400+ tested places including the hallway!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Lord of the Flies

Amazing what happens when sheltered little darlings leave the orbit of their parents. Did Natalee Holloway binge drink before she left Alabama for Aruba?

Cicero,

Some in the MSM and who kept blogs portrayed the Duke lacrosse players as being like the boys in the the novel "Lord of the Flies." However, this picture has little foundation, as discussed in "Until Proven Innocent," which was coauthored by one of the premier bloggers on the case. PM me for some good references to the journalism in this case; I don't want to wander too far off-topic here.

Chris

 

[Fiona]

The petition from the DNA forensic experts asked for the release of the .fst files, which had not been done as of the writing of the letter. It appears that their asking for these files is not an unreasonable thing to do (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbTSu-g16Kd-SAKt4lDqAumu0tSZDA). This site says, “Copies of all data files used and created in the course of performing tests and analyzing data in this
case, including .fsa files, if applicable. These files should include all data necessary to
independently reanalyze the raw data.”

Chris

Which forensic experts? Which letter?

All files relating to the forensic test were requested by the defence team before the court broke for the summer recess in June or July and the prosecution agreed to that.

So what are you referring to?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Bob,

When were these swabs done? To the best of my knowledge nothing else was collected on the same day as the clasp, and the site to which I linked made a case as to why one would want to test an object that was close by. Please give us your thoughts on the three unidentified individuals.

Chris

 

[Fiona]

BobTheDonkey,

I think that one ought to do control experiments of the kind described below.

http://www.sciencespheres.com/2009/10/methods-of-polizia-pseudoscientificaa.html

Control experiments to check for this would have been simple. The clasp was retrieved from a pile of debris left by the fastidious investigators in Meredith's room, shown in the picture at the right. Testing a few other items from that pile to see if they, too, had picked up DNA dust from the floor would tell us whether there was anything special about the clasp. Of course, that wasn't done.

So we have “Raffaele's DNA was found on Meredith's bra clasp,” rather than, “Raffaele's DNA, along with DNA from lots of other people, was found at various random locations throughout Amanda's apartment, which he visited several times before the murder.” The first phrase sounds incriminating. The second, accurate phrase, shows how meaningless this test result is without a control experiment.
[end quote]

In response to a question from Fiona, We know from the appropriate video that there was also dust on the glove of the person who collected the clasp, which seems to run counter to the spirit of the DNA guidelines to which I have linked previously.

Without knowing the identities of the three others whose DNA is on the clasp, I would ask how they could be excluded as possible suspects.

Chris

Got the link to the detailed report yet?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Which forensic experts? Which letter?

All files relating to the forensic test were requested by the defence team before the court broke for the summer recess in June or July and the prosecution agreed to that.

So what are you referring to?

Fiona,

The nine scientists who signed the letter (petition) of 19 November 2009, including Dr. Hampikian. A pdf file can be found at http://www.friendsofamanda.org/articles.html.

Chris

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Bob,

When were these swabs done? To the best of my knowledge nothing else was collected on the same day as the clasp, and the site to which I linked made a case as to why one would want to test an object that was close by. Please give us your thoughts on the three unidentified individuals.

Chris

So, the DNA was able to transfer after the initial evidence was collected, but wasn't found anywhere in the initial testing?

One does not follow from the other. At the initial testing none of Sollecito's DNA was found in the room/hallway/bathroom/etc. And yet, somehow, over the next 47 days, Sollecito's DNA was able to enter the apartment and contaminate the clasp?

See how this doesn't make sense?

 

[piktor]

''You say that I say''

Let's see, 400+ swabs didn't show any signs of his DNA, 1 that did. I'd say that 1 that did is pretty conclusive.

Beautiful answer, BobTheDonkey!

That's the kind of back and forth that will be presented on appeal.

 

[Fiona]

Fiona,

The nine scientists who signed the letter (petition) of 19 November 2009, including Dr. Hampikian. A pdf file can be found at http://www.friendsofamanda.org/articles.html.

Chris

So they are asking for what the defence already has. Why?

 

[scissorhands]

So, the DNA was able to transfer after the initial evidence was collected, but wasn't found anywhere in the initial testing?

One does not follow from the other. At the initial testing none of Sollecito's DNA was found in the room/hallway/bathroom/etc. And yet, somehow, over the next 47 days, Sollecito's DNA was able to enter the apartment and contaminate the clasp?

See how this doesn't make sense?

I was under the impression that Sollecito had visited his girlfriends apartment previously, and certainly on the day of the discovery of the victim.
Yet none of his DNA was found in the apartment apart from that on the bra clasp of Kercher and a cigarette butt?
He must have been a ghost to leave such little evidence.
Holding a murder victim down during a life and death struggle, while leaving so little evidence is amazing.

 

[Fiona]

Are you experienced in this scissorhands? I have already mentioned that I was very surprised to find that there were only 9 finger prints in Knox's own room and none that were useable: only one of her finger prints which was identifiable in the whole house. Is that what you would have expected? And if it was why is dna different? Can you explain?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The glove is one possible route

Beautiful answer, BobTheDonkey!

That's the kind of back and forth that will be presented on appeal.

Piktor,

We have previously agreed that the dusty glove is one possible route of contamination. That is one reason same-day controls are so important.

From the petition of 19 November

Neither Raffaele Sollecito’s nor Amanda Knox’s DNA was found on: the remainder of the bra that was found with the victim, other items of victim’s clothing, objects collected from the room where the victim was found, or in samples from the victim’s body. These evidentiary samples were all collected the day the body was discovered.
Raffaele Sollecito had been at the house shared by Amanda and Meredith several times. Furthermore, Amanda, Meredith and their guests shared a bathroom. Transfer of Raffaele’s DNA to the clasp could have occurred through several innocent means as a result of his DNA being in the apartment or via Amanda’s clothing or belongings.
[Snip]
Handling and movement of this sample has compromised its probative value. The laboratory results for this sample cannot reliably be interpreted to show that the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito was actually on the bra clasp at the time of Meredith Kercher’s murder, and it does not establish how or when this DNA was deposited or transferred.
[end quote]

Thus, nine independent forensic experts made it clear in their text that no other DNA from RS was found, and yet they come to the opposite conclusion as you and BobTheGoat based on the same data. That is good enough for me.

Chris