Obama and the Gay Military...

[Sledge]

Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it and regret getting it.

I have seen a number of stories of gay men in the military who are victims of hate crimes. But what is important to note is the fact that they were victimized when they were on leave when they could be more themselves. The attacks did hot happen in the military where the rules demand that they keep quiet about their orientation.

One such case was even mentioned here in this discussion thread.

Ah, so you're saying gay people should hide their sexuality at all times.

Wait, what?

 

[Bill Thompson]

DADT was intended to give homosexuals in the military more equal rights than they had. The rights they have are less than those of heterosexuals in the military, and less than those of homosexuals in the general population.

I think you are a little off the mark here. The military also has rules regarding sexuality and sexual practices with straight people. Noone has rights in the military apart from what is granted by the officers above them.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Ah, so you're saying gay people should hide their sexuality at all times.

Wait, what?

Nope. You misquote me again. I am beginnnig to expect it. Gay marrage, for example is good for everyone. It would be kind of nice to know who or what you are dealing with in normal society.

But we are not talking about normal society.

Nothing good happens in the military world without sacrifice.

The Native Hawiians had a custom of taking any infant or child with a malformity to the top of a volcano and throw him in.

Now, don't get ahead of me. I am not saying that being gay is a malformity that we need to sacrifice. I can almost read your mind. This is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that to the outside modern world, we look at this practice of the Native Hawiians and call it barbaic and unnecessary. Ah, but the tribe that practice this rutual became the fiercest and strongest and most dominant. This is not only because of natural selection but because by doing this ritual, the tribe was not burden with the task of taking care of the helpless. It was not distracted with humanitarian efforts within its own ranks.

The United States military ought not be concerned with nor burdened with humanitarian and political correctness within its own ranks. It is a burden it can do nothing but slow it down. It is a sacrifice, I know, but nothing good happens in this world without sacrifice.

Nothing would please me more to know that Al Qaeda was conducting classes on accepting the gay members of their ranks. While they are spending their time focusing on this, we could be surrounding them like lions preparing for a kill.

Sledge, I have asked you in IM's to explain all your name calling, misquoting and you have always resulted to silliness. It is sad that this is all just a game to you.

 

[Alan]

I think you are a little off the mark here. The military also has rules regarding sexuality and sexual practices with straight people. Noone has rights in the military apart from what is granted by the officers above them.

And the rules are unequal.

 

[Bill Thompson]

And the rules are unequal.

I noticed you are from Australia.

My inlaws couldn't understand how I thought Brazil was like another planet where absolutely everything was different until they came to visit me in The States. They would tell me that it was like another dimension.

I also have a sister-in-law whose mother and grandmother are Welsh. I also had a college professor who was Welsh. Their views on the world seem to be from a very different angle. Everything was understated and their value system is entirely different.

People seem unable to comprehend that Human Rights really are not universal and to tell this to someone in another country, they seem to think that THEIR view and interpretation of human rights is the only one.

I have never been to Australia. It would be impolite for me to comment on your country and how they choose to do things.

 

[Bill Thompson]

You seem to have a general problem with comprehension.

Ditto:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5391280&postcount=685

 

[Alan]

I noticed you are from Australia.

My inlaws couldn't understand how I thought Brazil was like another planet where absolutely everything was different until they came to visit me in The States. They would tell me that it was like another dimension.

I also have a sister-in-law whose mother and grandmother are Welsh. I also had a college professor who was Welsh. Their views on the world seem to be from a very different angle. Everything was understated and their value system is entirely different.

People seem unable to comprehend that Human Rights really are not universal and to tell this to someone in another country, they seem to think that THEIR view and interpretation of human rights is the only one.

I have never been to Australia. It would be impolite for me to comment on your country and how they choose to do things.

That's your reply to "And the rules are unequal."

There is institutionalised discrimination in the U.S. military regarding the expression of sexual orientation. Where I live is irrelevant to this.

 

[Bill Thompson]

That's your reply to "And the rules are unequal."

There is institutionalised discrimination in the U.S. military regarding the expression of sexual orientation. Where I live is irrelevant to this.

Strangely, where I work NOW -- in the civilian world -- has a policy regarding the expression of sexual orientation and doing so can get you fired. And yet we are against the military for having this policy. If sexuality is a taboo subject where I work now, I do not see why it is bad to be not allowed in the military.

Yes, your views really do have to do with where you live and yes, what you decide is right or wrong really does have to do with where you live. For example, there is institutionalised discrimination in Iran regarding sexual orientation. I imagine such people enforcing the laws in Iran would have no problem with the American military.

You're using arguments that could equally be used to argue against integration. It's nobody's fault but your own that these arguments make you look like a small-minded bigot.

I think all this name calling stems from the fact that I am saying something you do not want to believe and what you don't want to hear and what you have been conditioned to be against.

But since I have said that if it was not for my stint in the military I would also be against DADT, you might want to consider that I might know what I am talking about. And you might come to regret all these personal attacks.

According to a program I saw on The Discovery Channel, at least some prisons in the USA try to separate homosexuals from the general population. I have no idea why. I have no idea why because I have never been to prison nor have I ever worked in a prison. If I had been to prison, maybe I would understand why.

But there must be a good reason. Would it be fair to call the wardens of such prisons, "bigots" and "homophobes"?

 

[Alan]

Don't pretend that heterosexuals are prohibited from doing the things that homosexuals aren't allowed to in the U.S. military.

The rules are unequal regarding different sexual orientations in the U.S. military.

When this is the case in civilian situations, I am against that as well.

 

[Alan]

Yes, your views really do have to do with where you live and yes, what you decide is right or wrong really does have to do with where you live. For example, there is institutionalised discrimination in Iran regarding sexual orientation. I imagine such people enforcing the laws in Iran would have no problem with the American military.

You were replying to my statement of fact that the rules in the U.S. military regarding sexuality are unequal.

Where I live is unimportant to that.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Bill, I guess I'm ok with you saying you think gay people should hide their sexuality in the armed forces. It's crap, of course because a number of countries do and have allowed openly gay members to serve with no problem whatsoever.

What IS A problem is that you are taking "Should not say" and defending "CANNOT say" which is totally different.

I could choose not to drink alcohol, or eat red meat. It may well be good for me, but just because it might benefit me doesn't mean I should be FORCED into those choices. I like alcohol, I love red meat, so I choose to consume them. I know that they are bad for me (yes, sweeping generalisation but you get the picture) but I choose to eat them anyway.

Gay people should be allowed to be openly gay wherever they are and in whatever job. The British army allows openly gay soldiers and we've never had a problem.

Wiki

Switzerland

Switzerland's military policies also allow for gay men and lesbians to serve openly without discrimination or harassment due to actual or perceived sexual orientation.[11]

United Kingdom

The United Kingdom's policy is to allow gay men and lesbians to serve openly, and discrimination on a sexual orientation basis is forbidden.[11] It is also forbidden for someone to pressure LGBT people to come out. All personnel are subject to the same "no-touching" rules. Since 2008, military personnel have been permitted to attend Gay Pride marches in uniform.[22]

South Africa

South Africa allows homosexuals to serve openly.[7]

Spain

Gays are allowed to serve openly in the Spanish Army. As of 2009, after the case of Aitor G.R, the courts also ruled that transgendered individuals are also permitted to serve in the military.[21]

Sweden

Sweden allows homosexuals to serve openly

France, Germany, Israel, Finland, Denmark, Australia. There are a number of others that allow gays and lesbians to openly serve. The only one that has there being a problem listed on Wikipedia is Italy, and there is no evidence supplied for this.

Correction: It lists Bemuda as being very homophobic with links supplied.

 

[Sledge]

Nope. You misquote me again. I am beginnnig to expect it.

Nope. You'll notice I didn't quote you at all, so I can hardly have misquoted you. You misuse the English language again. I am beginnnig [sic] to expect it.

Gay marrage, for example is good for everyone. It would be kind of nice to know who or what you are dealing with in normal society.

So gay marriage should be allowed not because there's absolutely no reason gay people shouldn't marry, but so that you can tell who is gay at a glance? Maybe we could just make them all wear a yellow star.

But we are not talking about normal society.

Then stop derailing the thread and stick to the point.

Nothing good happens in the military world without sacrifice.

Please stop derailing the thread and stick to the point.

The Native Hawiians had a custom of taking any infant or child with a malformity to the top of a volcano and throw him in.

Now, don't get ahead of me. I am not saying that being gay is a malformity that we need to sacrifice. I can almost read your mind. This is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that to the outside modern world, we look at this practice of the Native Hawiians and call it barbaic and unnecessary. Ah, but the tribe that practice this rutual became the fiercest and strongest and most dominant. This is not only because of natural selection but because by doing this ritual, the tribe was not burden with the task of taking care of the helpless. It was not distracted with humanitarian efforts within its own ranks.

Please stop derailing the thread and stick to the point.

The United States military ought not be concerned with nor burdened with humanitarian and political correctness within its own ranks.

You have yet to demonstrate how allowing gay people to serve openly in the armed forces would be a burden, so this is irrelevant.

It is a burden it can do nothing but slow it down.

Please don't pull assertions out of your arse in a desperate attempt to justify your bigotry. Prove your point or shut up.

It is a sacrifice, I know, but nothing good happens in this world without sacrifice.

Wrong.

Nothing would please me more to know that Al Qaeda was conducting classes on accepting the gay members of their ranks. While they are spending their time focusing on this, we could be surrounding them like lions preparing for a kill.

Please stop derailing the thread and stick to the point.

Sledge, I have asked you in IM's to explain all your name calling, misquoting and you have always resulted to silliness.

Your bigotry deserves nothing less, especially when it is presented in unsolicited PMs. Now please stop derailing the thread and stick to the point.

It is sad that this is all just a game to you.

If I said what I wanted to, I'd probably be banned from this forum. How DARE you. A game? Shove that where the sun don't shine, sonny boy. It's a shame that you think the world should be governed according to your homophobia.

 

[Alt+F4]

Strangely, where I work NOW -- in the civilian world -- has a policy regarding the expression of sexual orientation and doing so can get you fired.

Might I ask, in what sort of civilian job would a man get fired if say he told a co-worker that he went out to dinner with his husband the night before?

The T in DADT is "tell", not "act". No one has ever suggested it would be appropriate to act on one's sexual orientation at the work place, whether it be military or civilian.

 

[funk de fino]

Noone has rights in the military apart from what is granted by the officers above them.

Absolute junk. You really are digging yourself in deeper.

 

[funk de fino]

Gay people should be allowed to be openly gay wherever they are and in whatever job. The British army allows openly gay soldiers and we've never had a problem.

To be fair however, this was not the case when I served and it was pretty much forced on to the Military/MOD.

There have been no problems since, and the quality of our forces has not been diminished. We may not have the quantity but we definitely have the quality based on my interactions with other forces wordwide. The biggest racist bigots I met while serving, were some guys serving on a USS aircraft carrier. Turned my stomach. There were some who were undoubtedly similar in their views that I served with, but they did not shout it around like those sailors did.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Noone has rights in the military apart from what is granted by the officers above them.

Absolute junk. You really are digging yourself in deeper.

I know from experience, Mister Man.
Military personel do not even have freedom of speech.
In fact, without permission, we are not even allowed to poo or sleep.

I think you are nothing but a rageaholic resorting to lies to support your ideology.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Might I ask, in what sort of civilian job would a man get fired if say he told a co-worker that he went out to dinner with his husband the night before?

It is not what I said, sillypants. Having dinner is not having sex.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Nope. You'll notice I didn't quote you at all, so I can hardly have misquoted you.

OK, Mister National Enquirer. You manage to say things like "Bill is saying that..." and then say something that I never said and then come back and defend yourself by saying that you never technically quoted you.

Go back to law school and find more loopholes to push your way through.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Bill, I guess I'm ok with you saying you think gay people should hide their sexuality in the armed forces. It's crap, of course because a number of countries do and have allowed openly gay members to serve with no problem whatsoever.

Why not read the discussion thread so that I do not have to repeat myself.

First of all, that is not exactly what I am saying.

Second of all, (for about the seventh time), you cannot sensibly say that just because something is in one country it can be in other countries.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Don't pretend that heterosexuals are prohibited from doing the things that homosexuals aren't allowed to in the U.S. military.

The rules are unequal regarding different sexual orientations in the U.S. military.

When this is the case in civilian situations, I am against that as well.

Again, judgement is passed onto the United States from the lad from Australia.

Fix your own country, dude.

You also do not show me the time and respect to read and consider my analogy about Brazil. You reap what you sow.