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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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In any case, neither one is specific about where this incident took place, despite the fact that over and over in this thread we've been told that Sollecito's claim was that Kercher came to his flat and pricked her hand on the knife there. Did he claim this somewhere else, I wonder?

Is that splitting hairs or is it important to our understanding of Sollecito's admission? It had been my understanding that the pricking occurred at his place, too. He certainly provided his reason for her DNA to be found on his knife. In fact, he fully expects the DNA to be blood and not other tissue since his terminology is not "scraped" but "pricked". And note his complete lack of surprise that they might find other traces of Meredith's DNA "on the rags and so on". He seems to feel they might find evidence of her elsewhere that points to him. He doesn't say that the rags are in his own house either.

I will try to find the source for you as long as it's not a fishing expedition.
 
For example, in the video of the police collecting the bra strap, watch the second policeman. Notice that he handles the evidence with the same hand he was using to hold the flashlight. If same flashlight was used to collect other evidence, or even set down on a table in another room, it could be a source of contamination.

I thought the counterclaim of contamination had moved from the crimescene to the laboratory. In fact, Sollecito's own expert is discussing something along the lines of "flying DNA". That's in the links I provided for you to read.

I have the same question of you that I had of halides1. Why is Sollecito's hired expert less capable than we rank amateurs at indicating all these sources of contamination? If halides1 has access to this better expert then perhaps he ought to connect him with the Sollecito defence team since he is allegedly more qualified than the one they used. If anything, Hampikian should at least be compared side-by-side with Tagliabracci before we assume that the DNA evidence may be challenged successfully.

Since halides1 brought in this fresh expert and has access to him then he should provide this analysis.
 
Well, that rather depends on the translation, doesn't it? I don't speak Italian so I don't know what he said. Do you?

Do I have to go get one of the Italian speakers at PMF to explain it to me? Will it convince you that Sollecito expected Meredith's DNA evidence to be on his cutlery any more than it does now? More importantly, does it change the fact that Sollecito added this detail after his discovery that the forensics team made it public that some of her DNA had been found on the murder weapon in his home?

That's what I mean by splitting hairs. The PMF people have been very helpful to both Fiona and me so far but I don't want to bother them with a detail that isn't going to change your mind. Right now-correct me if I'm wrong--you don't believe that Sollecito admitted to anything in his diary but that he would have if (a) he'd meant they'd cooked in his own apartment and (b) he'd meant he'd pricked her rather than scraped her with the murder weapon.
 
Quite a different impression?! The two bear no resemblence at all. What's the explanation for such a profound difference?

The details are rather different in the video than in the picture. One of them is definitely not the crimescene.
 
Do I have to go get one of the Italian speakers at PMF to explain it to me?

No, you don't have to do anything you don't want to. I certainly won't hold it against you.

Will it convince you that Sollecito expected Meredith's DNA evidence to be on his cutlery any more than it does now?

Probably not. I don't know what Sollecito expected, or if he expected anything.

More importantly, does it change the fact that Sollecito added this detail after his discovery that the forensics team made it public that some of her DNA had been found on the murder weapon in his home?

I don't think this knowledge will change any facts, though I remain to be convinced that this knife was in fact "the murder weapon".

Right now-correct me if I'm wrong--you don't believe that Sollecito admitted to anything in his diary but that he would have if (a) he'd meant they'd cooked in his own apartment and (b) he'd meant he'd pricked her rather than scraped her with the murder weapon.

Sorry, I'm not following your precis of what you think I believe. I just can't make sense of it.
 
Quote:
Right now-correct me if I'm wrong--you don't believe that Sollecito admitted to anything in his diary but that he would have if (a) he'd meant they'd cooked in his own apartment and (b) he'd meant he'd pricked her rather than scraped her with the murder weapon.


Sorry, I'm not following your precis of what you think I believe. I just can't make sense of it. Sorry, I'm not following your precis of what you think I believe. I just can't make sense of it.

Why don't you just tell me then? I don't mind jumping through hoops as long as it's to help you gain an understanding of the case and especially why suspicion and eventually the evidence fell so heavily against AK and RS. What I do mind is providing the links and the evidence only to find that it's still not good enough.

Again, at PMF, there is literally months worth of reading to do if you really want to understand these things. I don't pretend to be an expert but I assure you that if you started the task of reading and absorbing the information that they provide then you'd probably be able to answer all your own reasonable doubts about the case.

Just regarding Sollecito's explanation of the DNA on the knife, it took me quite some time to get to it and it satisfied my questions. Mind you, I wondered originally where the investigators got the idea that RS had written about it. It doesn't establish guilt but it's simply another piece of evidence connecting him to the crime.

Originally Posted by stilicho
The details are rather different in the video than in the picture. One of them is definitely not the crimescene.


How did you come to this conclusion? If the photos are taken at different times, is there a reason why the details should not be different?

Our definition of "crimescene" must be different. If the images are distinctly different, as these are without question, then either one or the other (or even neither) must be what the police originally found at the cottage.
 
the door

Here is what Fiona (or at least what I'd expect she'd have to say given her previous posts on the subject) and I have to say:

Explain why, if there was a contamination issue, there was only one other source of Sollecito's DNA? We must therefore accept that the cigarette butt in the kitchen, the only other source of Sollecito's DNA, was handled immediately prior to handling of the clasp and that nothing else was handled in the interim.

We must ignore that there was not just a light trace of his DNA on the clasp.

Finally, must also overlook that no other DNA was found on the clasp.

So, now we are asked to believe that out of all the possible DNA samples that could have contaminated the clasp, only Sollecito's DNA was transferred onto the clasp, the contamination was in such a manner as to leave a heavy trace, and that this cross-contamination must have come from a cigarette butt found in a different room (and probably removed during the initial evidence collection).



That, sir, is quite a bit of unlikely circumstances and it behooves us very little to suspend reason simply to allow that the DNA evidence is contaminated.

BobTheDonkey,

IIRC Sollecito tried to enter the bedroom; therefore, his DNA was on the door handle and/or the door. And the door opened inwards.

Chris
 
Our definition of "crimescene" must be different. If the images are distinctly different, as these are without question, then either one or the other (or even neither) must be what the police originally found at the cottage.

Perhaps. If your definition of "crime scene" is the room in which the murder actually took place, then this is not it: it's the bathroom so you could say it's not right to call it "the crime scene". But it is a room in the cottage that provided forensic evidence (the foot print) and I am sure it was protected by "crime scene" barriers, so it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to call it part of the crime scene. I'm not sure what your definition is - it seems that you are saying the "crimescene" is the room as it was when the police originally found it, but not after they've processed it, which seems like an esoteric definition to me, but I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you can clarify if you want to.

Apparently the video is what the police originally found, and the photo is the photo they released to the media in what seems like an attempt to portray the scene as more grisly than it actually was. Their motive for doing that is not known, but one has been advanced by the Youtube video.
 
BobTheDonkey,

IIRC Sollecito tried to enter the bedroom; therefore, his DNA was on the door handle and/or the door. And the door opened inwards.

Chris

And yet...and yet...none of the other swabs from the bedroom had his DNA? His DNA floated off the door and landed solely on the clasp like precision guided munitions? Or are you implying that the officers cross-contaminated between the door and the clasp, but nowhere/nothing else?

Again, I find this line of reasoning to be too difficult to honestly maintain.
 
And yet...and yet...none of the other swabs from the bedroom had his DNA? His DNA floated off the door and landed solely on the clasp like precision guided munitions?

I don't quite understand your reasoning here. If his DNA is found anywhere in the room, it puts him at the scene of the crime, since his story is that he was not in the room at all. The DNA doesn't have to be found on the clasp and on the clasp alone for the prosecution to make their case, so there's no "precision guided munitions" analogy here. I think there's some sort of name for this fallacy but I can't remember what it is.
 
DNA testimony

Stilicho,

You wrote in separate comments, “This intrigues me. The suggestion here is that Sollecito employed the wrong expert. Can you briefly contrast the major points Professor Hampikian would have used during the trial with those of A. Tagliabracci--the actual expert they employed?” And, “Since halides1 brought in this fresh expert and has access to him then he should provide this analysis.” And, “What I do mind is providing the links and the evidence only to find that it's still not good enough.”

Fiona and BobTheDonkey asked me to contact Professor Hamkinian for video evidence that the bra strap had been moved. The video I linked did more than that; one sees dust on the glove, which disturbs me greatly. Yet their responses to this video have left me to wonder whether it was a good use of my time or Professor Hamkinian’s, who is being asked for a this sort of information very frequently just now for obvious reasons.

However, your question is a good one, and I regret that I cannot spare the time just now to give it my full attention. But this site (http://www.sciencespheres.com/2009/10/lcn-dna-profiling-part-ii-watch-where.html) is a start. It is implied that this expert, Sara Giro, while being correct, did not commununicate her thoughts in a way that the jury understood. I would draw your attention to paragraph five:

We're not through. Laboratories performing LCN rely heavily on what are called “negative controls.” The following quote is from The Law Society of Scotland's publication at: http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-2/1003857.aspx

“In forensic science the fact to be established is that the DNA profile originated from the material recovered from a crime scene or a suspect, not the investigator, the laboratory, packaging, or analytical instruments. A “negative control” is set up by simply processing a “blank” sample that has no DNA. All being well, this control will not show any DNA. The presence of DNA in the negative control illustrates that there has been a source of contamination in the analytical method. It does not, of itself, show where that occurred, merely that it has. The tradition over many years has been, for very sound reasons, that anything found in the “negative control” invalidates the analysis.

...even in a tightly controlled analytical procedure a significant number of supposedly negative controls give a positive result, i.e. they indicate the presence of DNA.”

Stefanoni apparently did not perform any negative controls with same system parameters as that used for the kitchen knife DNA. That's another deficiency.

And note here, the statement, “It does not, of itself, show where that (contamination) occurred, merely that it has.” When Sara Gino was pressed, under cross-examination, to say where and how Stefanoni contaminated the samples, she could not give a specific answer, but only cited, “the literature.” This was seen as a weak response. But how could she possibly know at what point in the handling or processing contamination by 50 picograms of material may have happened? This is something you test for the presence of, not something you can possibly see happen. Even if someone followed the sample with a microscope in real time, it would be virtually impossible to witness the inadvertent transfer of such a minute amount of material. Gino's response, that she could "cite the literature,” which lists typical sources of contamination to guard against, was correct.

But these negative controls do not check for all sources of contamination, they only check for contamination originating in the laboratory. If the kitchen knife were contaminated before being chosen at random from Raffaele's drawer, this type of control won't catch it. If it was contaminated while being picked up, while being transported, or anywhere else along it's path, this method will not show that. To do that, you would have to perform additional negative controls, say, on the other knives in the drawer, or from some other source, handled in the same manner as the kitchen knife. None of this was done. That's yet another, major deficiency.

[end quote]

I would also draw your attention to the comments about contamination and the need for negative controls. I sense a misunderstanding in some comments about how contamination may occur and may come back to this point in a few days if time permits.

Chris
 
The cartwheel symbolizes the cultural misunderstandings. The police seemed to have decided Knox's behavior in the police station suggested she was guilty. I half to wonder if a cross cultural mis-read of behavior wasn't one of the things which set the rest of everything into motion.

So what exactly does a cartwheel symbolise in US culture?
 
Seems to me that wherever you are and wherever you’re from, a cartwheel in the middle of a police interview means you don’t give a @#$%.
 
I don't quite understand your reasoning here. If his DNA is found anywhere in the room, it puts him at the scene of the crime, since his story is that he was not in the room at all. The DNA doesn't have to be found on the clasp and on the clasp alone for the prosecution to make their case, so there's no "precision guided munitions" analogy here. I think there's some sort of name for this fallacy but I can't remember what it is.

You're missing the point. Whether it's because I'm not being clear enough or you're being intentionally obtuse, I don't know.

Sollecito's DNA was found nowhere else in the room. So, the "cross-contamination" would have had to be like a guided missile. It floated from the door and landed only on the clasp, nowhere else. And not just a small sample of the DNA, but a massive one. So, a clump of Sollecito's skin cells (spittle, whatever) flew off the door, maybe it circled the room a time or two looking for a suitable target, and landed squarely on the clasp without leaving a trace anywhere else in the room.

That doesn't seem a bit stretched to you?

Now you're shifting your claim from "it's cross-contaminated" to "they'd only need one sample anyway."

I don't think you know what you're attempting to argue, or you're simply grasping at strawmen to protect your personal interpretation.
 
And yet...and yet...none of the other swabs from the bedroom had his DNA? His DNA floated off the door and landed solely on the clasp like precision guided munitions? Or are you implying that the officers cross-contaminated between the door and the clasp, but nowhere/nothing else?

Again, I find this line of reasoning to be too difficult to honestly maintain.
BobTheDonkey,

I apologize for being brief due to some deadlines that must be met. So I offer this idea cautiously. The person who picked up the bra clasp in the video had dirty gloves. If these gloves had previously touched the door handle, it would provide a route for contamination. Other such scenarios are possible. If anyone is asking to see two objects being rubbed together on a video in order to believe contamination, that is setting the bar extremely high. Dr. Waterbury’s comments about controls, some of which I cited in my previous post, are worth pondering.

Regrettably, I will not be able to comment at length again until these obligations are met.

Chris
 
BobTheDonkey,

I apologize for being brief due to some deadlines that must be met. So I offer this idea cautiously. The person who picked up the bra clasp in the video had dirty gloves. If these gloves had previously touched the door handle, it would provide a route for contamination. Other such scenarios are possible. If anyone is asking to see two objects being rubbed together on a video in order to believe contamination, that is setting the bar extremely high. Dr. Waterbury’s comments about controls, some of which I cited in my previous post, are worth pondering.

Regrettably, I will not be able to comment at length again until these obligations are met.

Chris

And yet, and yet, there was no cross-contamination from Sollecito's DNA on any other tested items?.


ETA: Are you attempting to imply that the door handle was touched only when the officers went to retrieve the clasp? That at no other time during the investigation was the door/door handle touched?

Again, I ask if you are intentionally being obtuse?
 
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I thought the counterclaim of contamination had moved from the crimescene to the laboratory. In fact, Sollecito's own expert is discussing something along the lines of "flying DNA". That's in the links I provided for you to read.

Bad technique in collecting evidence doesn't preclude bad technique in the lab. Do you dispute that how the evidence was collected made contamination possible?
 
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