Caronia fires – induction currents, UFOs, or poltergeist?

[Audible Click]

Heard any really loud hams with IW9 callsigns?

All my hams have sat quietly in the oven and on the dining table. Even when cut with a knife thet were vewy,vewy, quiet.

 

[Lusikka]

There is no devil, there are no ghosts, or demons, so we are left with "pranksters". Well, visiting scientists have eliminated them too!! So scientists have to be believed, even though they didn't bother to figure out why or how a fire started with "nobody around but themselves". Well, just look at the wiring of the lamp. Polidoro, I think it was, says the experts say it looked like someone had burned the wiring with a cigarette lighter. The insulation was burned from the outside! No pictures, of course, no documentation. No names of "experts". This is all a notch below nonsense. People who just don't understand electricity or physics. Badly wired lamps cause fires all the time, but not when they are not plugged in. It is very obvious by just looking at the burned wires that they burned because of a short circuit, if that is what happened. Power to the whole town is turned off, and still electrical fires are occurring.

Yes, there would have been needed detailed reports about the occurrences. That became obvious also in Physicsforums. But if there is only the web available, there is still much to do. Naturally, reporters and editors in mass media don't understand physics very much. Every single bit of information is unreliable, but studying and comparing many sources gives rather good results.

In the Canneto case, the most and best sources are in Italian language. I am able to read some Italian, and that has been very helpful.

EMP, RF, etc. would if sufficiently powerful, ignite all kinds of things including people, not just cell phones and unplugged lamps. The Polidoro account makes perfect sense to me. There are just way too many conflicting stories here. Hoax, con, or some budding chemistry genius of a kid having some fun at the expense of his fellow citizens.

Yes, when you understand the physical background it is possible to make many conclusions. If something has happened so and so and the cause is known, so you are able to say what other things ought to have happened. If there are conflicting stories, so the reporting has been poor or then the cause of the occurrences remains unknown.

Oh, by the way, the problems all stopped when the town was evacuated, apparently.

Here we can see the general problem on this forum. If something is said in a skeptical source, then it is directly believed to be the truth, indefinitely long times, without checking elsewhere and updating later happenings. As a rule faulty information in skeptical sources is never corrected.

Polidoro has many good points in his article, but there are also many evidently wrong details and conclusions. The incidents continued all the time and there was a new surge of incidents in April. There happened many incidents by themselves also in the empty houses, without anybody present at the start of the fire. All fires did not start from electrical cables.

The Italians are not necessarily foolish enough to burn their own houses, appliances and furniture and cause so much harm for themselves. There were so many incidents during a long time, with police and authorities present, that there ought to have been really many extremely skilled pranksters. Practically impossible.

Well, I must correct now the wrong information I had in the OP. There were 39 persons and not families evacuated from about 20 houses.

 

[godless dave]

The Italians are not necessarily foolish enough to burn their own houses, appliances and furniture and cause so much harm for themselves.

Italians in general are not that foolish. But being human, there certainly exist within that population people who are foolish, malicious, mentally ill, or a cominbation of any or all of the three.

There were so many incidents during a long time, with police and authorities present,

Were there?

 

[blutoski]

The Italians are not necessarily foolish enough to burn their own houses, appliances and furniture and cause so much harm for themselves.

Nobody's saying they did. Many of the stories are true, and who knows who did them. Nobody's saying the damage was by the owners themselves. (In fact: one strong hypothesis is that arson could be an attempt to intimidate the cooperative)

Many anecdotes may not even be true. "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear." (Marvin Gaye)

There were so many incidents during a long time, with police and authorities present, that there ought to have been really many extremely skilled pranksters. Practically impossible.

I'm not sure I can say that's impossible. Vandalism and arson happen all the time, even buildings under guard. Even police stations. One dedicated person can do a lot of damage.

But there's probably less actual damage than reported. Crowd hysteria works like that.

 

[Lusikka]

Nobody's saying they did. Many of the stories are true, and who knows who did them. Nobody's saying the damage was by the owners themselves. (In fact: one strong hypothesis is that arson could be an attempt to intimidate the cooperative)

Many anecdotes may not even be true. "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear." (Marvin Gaye)

Certainly there has been much exaggeration and poor reporting in the case. But reading big quantities of reports and comparing between them and then thinking a little makes the difference. It seems that you don't know the details very well.

I'm not sure I can say that's impossible. Vandalism and arson happen all the time, even buildings under guard. Even police stations. One dedicated person can do a lot of damage.

But there's probably less actual damage than reported. Crowd hysteria works like that.

Aha, they were banished from their homes in vain? Some damage can be seen here:
http://www.psicoemergenza.it/articoli/caronia dic 04 36.pdf
http://www.psicoemergenza.it/articoli/caronia dic 04 37.pdf
http://www.psicoemergenza.it/articoli/caronia dic 04 38.pdf
http://misterobufo.corriere.it/2009/10/xfiles_ufo_avvistamenti_alieni.html
http://www.hwh22.it/xit/S03_ricerche/caronia00.html

 

[Ixion]

The last report (which is rubbish) in the OP mentions 12 - 15 Gigawatts. That's lighting-bolt-strength zappies, and I'd think it would be pretty easy to analyse, considering that you'd be able to see it for miles.

Not only that, but would a common (is there a common one?) household electrical wire be able to even physically handle such a surge? Can a copper/tin 1/16 inch wire support such a voltage, much less transmit it along the length of it? I am not an electrician nor electrical engineer, so maybe someone more knowledgable than I can weigh in on this.

 

[Lusikka]

Nobody's saying they did. Many of the stories are true, and who knows who did them. Nobody's saying the damage was by the owners themselves. (In fact: one strong hypothesis is that arson could be an attempt to intimidate the cooperative)

I'm not sure I can say that's impossible.

Forgot to say that it is a small village and nearly all there are relatives to each other. Do you think they were sitting in their houses waiting unknown people to come in and set their television, electricity sockets and fridge in fire?

Neither did I say impossible. But practically impossible.

 

[blutoski]

Forgot to say that it is a small village and nearly all there are relatives to each other. Do you think they were sitting in their houses waiting unknown people to come in and set their television, electricity sockets and fridge in fire?

Not at all. The suggestion was that outsiders were trying to intimidate them. An earlier post provided an external reference showing that it's a real problem for coops of this type.

Neither did I say impossible. But practically impossible.

Understood. Either way, the difference is that you think such an explanation can be dismissed; whereas, I think it's very plausible.

 

[Akhenaten]

Certainly there has been much exaggeration and poor reporting in the case. But reading big quantities of reports and comparing between them and then thinking a little makes the difference. It seems that you don't know the details very well.

<short circuit>

I'd disagree with this and suggest it's a similar tactic to one used by bigfeets and alien UFO proponents.

A great mass of small pieces of unreliable evidence adds up to a great big pile of unreliable evidence, nothing more.

Not only that, but would a common (is there a common one?) household electrical wire be able to even physically handle such a surge? Can a copper/tin 1/16 inch wire support such a voltage, much less transmit it along the length of it? I am not an electrician nor electrical engineer, so maybe someone more knowledgable than I can weigh in on this.

I'm a sparky. Most of my experience is in aviation, but my observations about the quoted amount of power should be apparent to anyone in the trade, I'd think.

First up, I wasn't using hyperbole when I described 12 - 15 gigawatts as being 'lightning strength'. That's exactly the kind of power we're talking about here.

To keep it simple, a Watt, which is a unit of electrical power, is derived as:

1 Watt = 1 Volt x 1 Ampère (P = EI)​

so, (given that a natural lightning bolt is generally about a million volts)

1 gigawatt = 1 megavolt x 1 kiloamp​

Back to the household wiring. It's generally rated at up to about 15 - 20 amps for power circuits and 10 amps for lighting.

A 20 amp copper conductor will carry about 50 amps before the insulation starts to burn or melt. Joins in the cable and terminal connections will start getting very hot. This will likely cause something to happen.

Before you get to 100 amps the copper itself will melt. Current, strangely, will then drop to zero.

Now imagine what 15 000 amps would do.

It would vapourise the cable, the insulation, cable clamps, terminals, switches, fuseboxes, half of the house, and every conductor between the scene of the crime and the source of the power.

I don't think you'd have to be an electrician or a scientist to locate the mystery source of 12 - 15 gigawatts. You'd see it from the ISS.



ETA: Of course, at a million volts, the current doesn't need a copper conductor at all. Trees, rocks, people - anything will do.

 

[Hamradioguy]

Heard any really loud hams with IW9 callsigns?

Ah ha, that's it. Those fires were likely caused by some kid with a ham radio set.

 

[Akhenaten]

mmm. Can this thread be about bacon now?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I have the following question: is there enough expertise here to tell what kind of magnetic field strength and frequency would be needed to get the effects observed in Canneto?

A huge one, which would zap every piece of electronics and electrical appliance in the area. During WW2 extensive research went into methods of converting the then relatively novel EM waves into some kind of death ray device. None were found.

Any other explanations than tricks?

Voltage spikes on the mains could explain the initial incidents. Followed by copycat tricks.

Hans

 

[Akhenaten]

A huge one, which would zap every piece of electronics and electrical appliance in the area. During WW2 extensive research went into methods of converting the then relatively novel EM waves into some kind of death ray device. None were found.

Voltage spikes on the mains could explain the initial incidents. Followed by copycat tricks.

Hans

Being as I'm a cynic as much as a skeptic, this sounds like a plausible explanation to me, especially if there were any insurance claims associated with these 'incidents'.

 

[technoextreme]

Not only that, but would a common (is there a common one?) household electrical wire be able to even physically handle such a surge? Can a copper/tin 1/16 inch wire support such a voltage, much less transmit it along the length of it? I am not an electrician nor electrical engineer, so maybe someone more knowledgable than I can weigh in on this.

No.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Being as I'm a cynic as much as a skeptic, this sounds like a plausible explanation to me, especially if there were any insurance claims associated with these 'incidents'.

That and the 15 minutes of fame syndrome. In the beginning people are thrilled at the media attention. Then, as everone has been thoroughly misquoted at least once, they get sick and tired of it, and the 'events' peter out.

Hans

 

[Lusikka]

I'd disagree with this and suggest it's a similar tactic to one used by bigfeets and alien UFO proponents.

A great mass of small pieces of unreliable evidence adds up to a great big pile of unreliable evidence, nothing more.

I understand that what you wrote so that you don't appreciate gathering as much and as good information as possible, comparing the information of different sources and making best possible balanced conclusions based on the material. I hope I am wrong. Would you please make your point clearer?

The problem with cryptozoologists and some UFO proponents is, that their conclusions are not balanced.

Unreliable evidence? Would you please answer and tell in which of the following points information is reliable in the Canneto case:

1. There have been fires

2. There have been firemen present

3. Electrical appliances being damaged from overheating inside the machines

4. Electrical cables being burnt

5. About a hundred experts present trying to find causes for the (possible?) damage

6. Fires starting in locked houses without anybody present inside

7. A policeman has seen a cable coil lying on the floor to catch fire by itself, not connected in electrical network

8. Water pipes seen to become glowing and start a fire

9. 39 persons have been evacuated in February-August

10. Cellular phones ringing until the battery has got empty, with nobody calling

11. Cellular phones catching fire

12. Water pipes beginning to leak, inundating some rooms

13. Sofas catching fire

14. Chairs catching fire

I'm a sparky. Most of my experience is in aviation, but my observations about the quoted amount of power should be apparent to anyone in the trade, I'd think.

First up, I wasn't using hyperbole when I described 12 - 15 gigawatts as being 'lightning strength'. That's exactly the kind of power we're talking about here.

To keep it simple, a Watt, which is a unit of electrical power, is derived as:

1 Watt = 1 Volt x 1 Ampère (P = EI)​

so, (given that a natural lightning bolt is generally about a million volts)

1 gigawatt = 1 megavolt x 1 kiloamp​

Back to the household wiring. It's generally rated at up to about 15 - 20 amps for power circuits and 10 amps for lighting.

A 20 amp copper conductor will carry about 50 amps before the insulation starts to burn or melt. Joins in the cable and terminal connections will start getting very hot. This will likely cause something to happen.

Before you get to 100 amps the copper itself will melt. Current, strangely, will then drop to zero.

Now imagine what 15 000 amps would do.

It would vapourise the cable, the insulation, cable clamps, terminals, switches, fuseboxes, half of the house, and every conductor between the scene of the crime and the source of the power.

I don't think you'd have to be an electrician or a scientist to locate the mystery source of 12 - 15 gigawatts. You'd see it from the ISS.

ETA: Of course, at a million volts, the current doesn't need a copper conductor at all. Trees, rocks, people - anything will do.

Thank you, it was just that kind of expertise I sought here. What about weaker magnetic effects, would the phenomena have any logic with them?

 

[Lusikka]

Not at all. The suggestion was that outsiders were trying to intimidate them. An earlier post provided an external reference showing that it's a real problem for coops of this type.

Do you have any local evidence of the intimidation?

Understood. Either way, the difference is that you think such an explanation can be dismissed; whereas, I think it's very plausible.

I accept any explanation to the phenomena, if it is well founded. In my opinion the prankster hypothesis is implausible, but I have not dismissed it. What evidence do you have for your opinion? I may later tell the causes for my opinion.

 

[Akhenaten]

I understand that what you wrote so that you don't appreciate gathering as much and as good information as possible, comparing the information of different sources and making best possible balanced conclusions based on the material. I hope I am wrong. Would you please make your point clearer?

I'll try.

I simply mean that the quantity of evidence does not, of itself, increase its reliability. It's the quality than counts.

My comment wasn't directed at you or your current evidence, but is a general observation.

The problem with cryptozoologists and some UFO proponents is, that their conclusions are not balanced.

Yes, and I apologise because I can see that you are sincere in seeking a balanced view.

That's why I hope I'm helping.

Unreliable evidence? Would you please answer and tell in which of the following points information is reliable in the Canneto case:

1. There have been fires

2. There have been firemen present

3. Electrical appliances being damaged from overheating inside the machines

4. Electrical cables being burnt

5. About a hundred experts present trying to find causes for the (possible?) damage

6. Fires starting in locked houses without anybody present inside

7. A policeman has seen a cable coil lying on the floor to catch fire by itself, not connected in electrical network

8. Water pipes seen to become glowing and start a fire

9. 39 persons have been evacuated in February-August

10. Cellular phones ringing until the battery has got empty, with nobody calling

11. Cellular phones catching fire

12. Water pipes beginning to leak, inundating some rooms

13. Sofas catching fire

14. Chairs catching fire

I'm less well-equipped than you with the details of these incidents, and can offer no explanation for them, if they occurred, but I can safely rule out a lot of things that have been mentioned as causes.

Thank you, it was just that kind of expertise I sought here. What about weaker magnetic effects, would the phenomena have any logic with them?

This whole business about magnetic fields is a bit of a red herring. The Earth itself is an enormous magnet, but that alone isn't enough to generate electrical power.

You have to have a conductor moving through the field to make the green steam start to flow. In the case of a field the size of the Earth's, it would have to be moving along at quite a pace, because it's the rate of change from North pole to South pole that determines the Electro Motive Force (EMF)

 

[blutoski]

Do you have any local evidence of the intimidation?

Um... fires?

I accept any explanation to the phenomena, if it is well founded. In my opinion the prankster hypothesis is implausible, but I have not dismissed it. What evidence do you have for your opinion? I may later tell the causes for my opinion.

? Vandalism is so common, I can't imagine you're asking me to prove that it exists.

I should point out that at this time, my conclusion is that there is not enough information to make a determination, and that asking for complex physics models is impossible without onsite examination of the alleged damaged equipment. The claims are simply poorly unsupported, not necessarily false.

 

[Ixion]

Back to the household wiring. It's generally rated at up to about 15 - 20 amps for power circuits and 10 amps for lighting.

A 20 amp copper conductor will carry about 50 amps before the insulation starts to burn or melt. Joins in the cable and terminal connections will start getting very hot. This will likely cause something to happen.

Before you get to 100 amps the copper itself will melt. Current, strangely, will then drop to zero.

Now imagine what 15 000 amps would do.

It would vapourise the cable, the insulation, cable clamps, terminals, switches, fuseboxes, half of the house, and every conductor between the scene of the crime and the source of the power.

I don't think you'd have to be an electrician or a scientist to locate the mystery source of 12 - 15 gigawatts. You'd see it from the ISS.



ETA: Of course, at a million volts, the current doesn't need a copper conductor at all. Trees, rocks, people - anything will do.

Thank you very much for the explanation. Exactly what I thought, but it is nice to hear from an expert on the subject. I am always learning something new on these boards!