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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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skeptigirl said:
It means that Knox's behavior was not what the Italian culture expects of an innocent roommate after a murder such as this.
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Here's a newsflash for you: Knox's behavior was not what American culture expects of an innocent roommate after a murder such as this either.
 
skeptigirl said:
As for Knox's DNA on the murder weapon: It was Kercher's DNA on the knife that was questionable, not Knox's. And Kercher's blood was everywhere at the crime scene so contamination of the supposed murder weapon was very possible.
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How does one manage to clean a knife used to murder someone so there is only a spot of the victims DNA on the tip? :confused:
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
:v:

Now that our musical interlude is over, care to inform/entertain us with your theory on what a cartwheel in a police station means in American culture?
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While we're at it, can you inform me as to what you believe was the motive for such a brutal killing?

A cartwheel is not physical evidence, so I'm not overly concerned with it. Yes, her behavior seems a little strange, but *everything* about this case seems strange, and I can't say I know how I would act if I were brought in for questioning related to the brutal murder of my roommate in a foreign country.
 
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98995

We didn't get much mileage in the original thread, but there was some amusing stuff there on the "rough sex" angle that remains puzzling to me.

It's been years, but in the mid 1980's, I was Shore Patrol officer one fine evening in Gaeta, Italy. One of the American sailors got into some drunk trouble, and we went off to try and extract him from the loving arms of the Italian Polizia. I discovered from the local Sixth Fleet JAG rep that the Italians had no equivalent to the Miranda rights we have in the US. Our sailor, in jail and feeling less than brilliant, had a number of bruises on him. His two shipmates, also arrested and not so drunk, very soberly described a few whacks to the head during their initial interview by annoyed Italian police. Their drunk buddy apparently got a bit rougher treatment, in part I found out from the Italians, due to his swinging back the first time someone popped him one.

That was a long evening.

Not sure if that's still how it goes in Italy.

Thirty hours interview/interrogation by Italian police: might have been rough, might not. Depends on the cops and their state of mind. That Miss Knox had no Miranda rights, and was possibly bullied into something, is reasonable guess to make.

DR
 
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Well the cartwheel was an understandable attempt to improve her chances of bail by being picked for the US Olympic gymnastics team.

I don't see any cultural misunderstanding here. More a kind of US imperial disdain for other nations, their citizens, their cultures, and their judicial systems.
How dare these other countries convict and sentence Americans.
(To be fair to the other Americans here, so far it's just Skeptigirl coming across that way)
 
Darth Rotor said:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98995

We didn't get much mileage in the original thread, but there was some amusing stuff there on the "rough sex" angle that remains puzzling to me.

It's been years, but in the mid 1980's, I was Shore Patrol officer one fine evening in Gaeta, Italy. One of the American sailors got into some drunk trouble, and we went off to try and extract him from the loving arms of the Italian Polizia. I discovered from the local Sixth Fleet JAG rep that the Italians had no equivalent to the Miranda rights we have in the US. Our sailor, in jail and feeling less than brilliant, had a number of bruises on him. His two shipmates, also arrested and not so drunk, very soberly described a few whacks to the head during their initial interview by annoyed Italian police. Their drunk buddy apparently got a bit rougher treatment, in part I found out from the Italians, due to his swinging back the first time someone popped him one.

That was a long evening.

Not sure if that's still how it goes in Italy.

Thirty hours interview/interrogation by Italian police: might have been rough, might not. Depends on the cops and their state of mind. That Miss Knox had no Miranda rights, and was possibly bullied into something, is reasonable guess to make.

DR
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The Innocence Project has a discussion of False Confessions
In about 25% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty.

These cases show that confessions are not always prompted by internal knowledge or actual guilt, but are sometimes motivated by external influences.
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Just like eyewitness testimony, scientific evidence has confirmed neither of these two commonly-presented-in-court types of evidence are reliable.
 
plumjam said:
Well the cartwheel was an understandable attempt to improve her chances of bail by being picked for the US Olympic gymnastics team.

I don't see any cultural misunderstanding here. More a kind of US imperial disdain for other nations, their citizens, their cultures, and their judicial systems.
How dare these other countries convict and sentence Americans.
(To be fair to the other Americans here, so far it's just Skeptigirl coming across that way)
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OK, now that is an interesting take and if there really was evidence of Knox's guilt you might be right. But in this case, you are not.

As for me and the Ugly American attitude you are ascribing to me, you couldn't be more any ignorant about me if you had tried.


The knee-jerk opinions in this thread based on various preconceived biases just keep coming. Fortunately there are enough people here who really are familiar with the case to neutralize the unsubstantiated opinions.
 
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Matthew Best said:
I haven't been paying enormous attention to this case as it progressed through the court so I've probably missed the mountain of evidence that indicates she may be guilty. The only things I can remember off-hand are (a) the testimony of the man who was already found guilty of the crime (though since his testimony was also that he was innocent there must be a doubt as to how reliable he is as a witness); (b) DNA on a knife that may possibly have been the murder weapon but this has not been demonstrated with certainty and as it was a knife from the shared home of the victim and alleged perpetrator there may be an innocent explanation for the presence of her DNA); and (c) fingerprints on something or other (ditto).

Could anyone give a quick rundown of what the rest of the evidence is, please?
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See the ABC News link ARubberChickenWithAPulley provided:
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/AmandaKnox/amanda-knox-murder-trial-evidence/story?id=9113616

Guede, whose DNA and bloody handprint was found in the murder room, originally didn't implicate Knox or Solecito, but at the opening of his appeal he implicated Knox. He said he was with Kercher but fell ill and went to the bathroom. He said that while there he heard Knox and Kercher arguing and then heard Kercher scream. He said he then came out, and saw an unidentified man who tried to attack him. Guede said he backed into the hallway and then "heard footsteps leaving the house and looked out of the window, where he saw a silhouette that he later identified as Knox's".

Even though the murder was violent, according to the prosecution, resulting from a sadistic sex game, there was not a trace of evidence that places Knox in the room - no DNA, no fingerprints, and no footprints. DNA from Solecito was found on the victims bra clasp which was cut from the victim's body by the assailant.

"The clasp was identified and photographed when forensic scientists analysed the crime scene, but it was not taken into evidence until six weeks later when investigators realized it was missing. The house had been turned upside down in a police search in the meantime.

Sollecito's lawyers argued that the crime scene had been contaminated, and that the tiny clasp had picked up Sollecito's DNA in the mess."

Both Knox's and Kercher's blood was found in three stains in the bathroom they shared, which isn't surprising for two young women.

The knife that the prosecution claim was the murder weapon was not from the women's house; it was from Solecito's apartment. Knox's DNA was found on the handle and the prosecution claims their test found Kercher's DNA on the blade, but the amount of material was so small that the DNA test couldn't be independently repeated and the sample tested negative for blood. Also defense experts contended the blade didn't match some of the wounds on the victim.

There were no fingerprints by Knox or Solecito in the victim's room although there was a bloody handprint from Guede.

The most damning "evidence" was Knox's and Solecito's behavior and inconsistent statements. At the beginning of the interrogation, Know said she was at Solecito's apartment the night of the murder. According to Curt Knox, Amanda was interrogated for 41 hours straight with no food, no sleep, no lawyer, and no professional interpreter. Toward the end of the interrogation she said she had a vision that she was at the apartment outside the door and heard screams and covered her ears, and this was included in her signed statement at the end of the interrogation. She said her interrogators suggested Lumumba's name to her.

She later returned exclusively to her original statement that she was at Solecito's.

I know that, when I've been extremely sleep-deprived, I've gone absolutely nuts and confessed in a nonlegal situation to something I didn't do.

I think the obsession of the prosecution, media, and internet posters with the confused alibi puts the burden of proof on the wrong persons. It should be up to the prosecution to prove someone was at the murder scene; it should not be up to the defendants to prove they weren't at the murder scene.

A higher Italian court threw out Knox's statement under interrogation because she didn't have a lawyer, but it's being thrown out was meaningless because the prosecution had already leaked it and Italy has an idiotic jury system.

The jury consisted of two judges and six Perugia citizens who weren't screened for biases and weren't sequestered. Not only had they already been influenced by all the leaks, rumors, and sensationalist media before the trial, for the many months of the trial they went about their regular lives outside the courtroom being exposed to all those pressures.

Whereas in the US, a unanimous verdict is required, only a majority is required on an Italian jury and, in case of a tie, the chief judge gets a second vote, so someone could be convicted with only four jurors including the chief judge supporting conviction.

I don't think that those in this thread who were so quick to declare Amanda Know guilty should ever serve on a jury because clearly they have no concept of "reasonable doubt".
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
:v:

Now that our musical interlude is over, care to inform/entertain us with your theory on what a cartwheel in a police station means in American culture?
Click to expand...

I find the cartwheel thing kind of odd from any direction. I can't really see why it would lead the cops to think she was guilty or innocent. I can see a young person kept waiting for a long time on an uncomfortable police station chair deciding to do some stretching exercises to keep limber/awake. I have to wonder if there's a translation problem here and that what she actually did was handstands rather than cartwheels?

In any case "Objection, immaterial" are the words that spring to my mind.
 
Philip said:
See the ABC News link ARubberChickenWithAPulley provided:
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/AmandaKnox/amanda-knox-murder-trial-evidence/story?id=9113616

... snip much interesting stuff ...

A higher Italian court threw out Knox's statement under interrogation because she didn't have a lawyer, but it's being thrown out was meaningless because the prosecution had already leaked it and Italy has an idiotic jury system.

The jury consisted of two judges and six Perugia citizens who weren't screened for biases and weren't sequestered. Not only had they already been influenced by all the leaks, rumors, and sensationalist media before the trial, for the many months of the trial they went about their regular lives outside the courtroom being exposed to all those pressures.

Whereas in the US, a unanimous verdict is required, only a majority is required on an Italian jury and, in case of a tie, the chief judge gets a second vote, so someone could be convicted with only four jurors including the chief judge supporting conviction.

I don't think that those in this thread who were so quick to declare Amanda Know guilty should ever serve on a jury because clearly they have no concept of "reasonable doubt".
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An interesting argument for the concept of studying abroad to be confined to examining the smootheness of a stripper's skin in a nice, safe, US strip joint. :p

Sorry, I could not help myself. From what you say, seems like Italy has changed little since I was on Shore Patrol, back in the day.

@ SG: thanks for the link, interesting read.

@ Fiona: also, thanks for that link.

DR
 
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maxpower1227 said:
While we're at it, can you inform me as to what you believe was the motive for such a brutal killing?
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I have no idea. Nor do I care.

maxpower1227 said:
A cartwheel is not physical evidence, so I'm not overly concerned with it. Yes, her behavior seems a little strange, but *everything* about this case seems strange, and I can't say I know how I would act if I were brought in for questioning related to the brutal murder of my roommate in a foreign country.
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I don't know the exact details of how I would act, but I'm 100% sure cartwheels wouldn't be a part of it.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
I have no idea. Nor do I care.



I don't know the exact details of how I would act, but I'm 100% sure cartwheels wouldn't be a part of it.
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Ok, so we're still left with no motive and no physical evidence. You seem content to condemn her based on a cartwheel though. I had really come to expect more of posters at this site.
 
There were several posts while I was composing my previous post..

Regarding Amanda's cartwheel, if I may be judgmental for a second, I think it's evidence of her being a little ditzy, not evidence of her being a murderer.

If unusual behavior is necessarily evidence of having committed a murder, the JREF forum is teeming with serial killers.
 
maxpower1227 said:
Ok, so we're still left with no motive and no physical evidence. You seem content to condemn her based on a cartwheel though. I had really come to expect more of posters at this site.
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You might want to read what Scrut wrote
Scrut said:
don't know the exact details of how I would act, but I'm 100% sure cartwheels wouldn't be a part of it.
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before you get all a-lather about your expectations. ;)

Scrut has been giving SG the business over her dishonest thread title since he joined in. Even if her thread title was false advertising, the case is intriguing, and educational for some of us Yanks as we get to learn a bit about the Italian justice system.
If unusual behavior is necessarily evidence of having committed a murder, the JREF forum is teeming with serial killers.
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Can I blame a one-armed man? I can't run like I used to ...

DR
 
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I'd say that the cartwheel proves she was innocent. Would a guilty person do a cartwheel in the police station, knowing it would be seen as suspicious by those from a different culture?:rolleyes:
 
I'm astounded that people think that a cartwheel is anything but a young girl who is nervous acting a little weird. The facts of this case are pretty clear. There is simpy zero evidence that she was involved in the murder. They have another guy in jail that was clearly tied with physical evidence.

I'm shocked about how people are reacting to this without looking at the evidence which is simply non-existent.
 
skeptigirl said:
Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel.


I have also followed the case from time to time, and I have a completely different picture of a travesty of justice. But it isn't so much a 'corrupt' legal system as it is more of a bigoted population and a cultural clash similar to how many blacks were lynched in the South in this country half a century ago.
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skeptigirl said:
The cartwheel symbolizes the cultural misunderstandings. The police seemed to have decided Knox's behavior in the police station suggested she was guilty. I half to wonder if a cross cultural mis-read of behavior wasn't one of the things which set the rest of everything into motion.
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skeptigirl said:
It means that Knox's behavior was not what the Italian culture expects of an innocent roommate after a murder such as this.
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skeptigirl said:
As for me and the Ugly American attitude you are ascribing to me, you couldn't be more any ignorant about me if you had tried.


The knee-jerk opinions in this thread based on various preconceived biases just keep coming. Fortunately there are enough people here who really are familiar with the case to neutralize the unsubstantiated opinions.
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Look at the stuff you've been saying. Particularly the parts I bolded.

What knowledge do you have of Italian culture?

If you have any, what is it in Italian culture which means cartwheeling in a police station when you're under suspicion of murder would be interpreted any differently in Italy than in the USA?

Are there any cultures on the planet where cartwheeling in such a circumstance would not be viewed as unusual by police?

I'd be interested to know what substance you have behind your description of the Italians as 'a bigoted population'.

And your attempt to compare this in some way to blacks being lynched in the southern states is just bizarre.
Maybe we should join hands and sing a few verses of "We Shall Overcome".

The final quote is the most telling. I think it's you showing the preconceived biases here.
 
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