Hardfire: Szamboti / Chandler / Mackey

[WildCat]

The non-detail attempts by others here to say the fireboats were small or that the pressure would not be great enough to run hoses from a distance are a joke.

There's certainly a joke here Tony. Unfortunately, you're the butt of it.

Have you submitted your ground-breaking paper for peer review yet, or is the pretend peer review all you aspire to?

 

[WildCat]

It would look, and just as importantly, sound, like this:



Note you do not see any deformation until the building is actually collapsing. Also note the very loud explosions, heard even though there are helicopters hovering nearby.

Have you learned anything from this video of an actual, real controlled demolition bardamu?

bardamu?

bardamu?

bardamu?


Hello? Is this thing working?

 

[Mangoose]

The first supply line was to a manifold opposite 90 West Street. The second and third lines were supplying E-219 at the intersection of Albany and West Streets, adjacent to 90 West Street. At one point 90 West Street was thought to be in danger of collapse due to numerous interior fires. The area was evacuated on orders received via handi talkie, leaving both the manifold and E-219 pumps unmanned. After about a half hour, firefighters, unfamiliar with inactivity at a disaster, started filtering back to continue doing what they could. (90 West Street still stands.)

Though the McKean was pumping at capacity, water pressure at West Street was barely adequate due to the long distance. D.C. Mosier, Sector Chief at Albany and West Streets, had E-228 and E-216 respond to Albany and South End Avenue. With the assistance of firefighters on scene, many from New Jersey communities, these pumpers were inserted into the supply lines, each receiving two 3 inch lines and relayed water to West Street. Subsequently E-14 was at the same location and was supplied with a 3 inch for relay. The two 3 inch lines supplying E-219 could not be interrupted due to the fact that it could not be determined who or what they were supplying and how critical those lines were.

http://www.nyfd.com/marine/Marine_1_page2.html

From a video taken the afternoon of 9/11:

 

[rwguinn]

Isn't pressure inversely proportional to distance?

TAM

Pressure loss in a pipe (Hose) is a function of distance, diameter, flow rate, and wall friction.
Additionally, 32 feet of elevation is about 1 atmosphere (14.7 psi) (30 feet for salt water), so to pump water up 10 floors requires a MINIMUM of 40PSI (with no flow), not counting line loss.
(BTW, the pressure loss per 75 Meters of 2 1/2 inch fire hose with no elevation gain is about 14 psi... at 500L/min--and it gets worse at higher flow rates, better for larger diameter hose)

 

[bill smith]

As I recall a couple of 110 story buildings collapsed rendering the city's water supply in that area practically useless.

I have videos of buildings on fire at ground zero being hosed down. Let's face it anyway- when the initial small fires were spotted a few teams of firemen could have easily put them out simply by using a trucked in supply of fire extinguishers.

Your excuses sound more ridiculous all the time.

 

[BigAl]

The first supply line was to a manifold opposite 90 West Street. The second and third lines were supplying E-219 at the intersection of Albany and West Streets, adjacent to 90 West Street. At one point 90 West Street was thought to be in danger of collapse due to numerous interior fires. The area was evacuated on orders received via handi talkie, leaving both the manifold and E-219 pumps unmanned. After about a half hour, firefighters, unfamiliar with inactivity at a disaster, started filtering back to continue doing what they could. (90 West Street still stands.)

Thanks for all the info.

For the benefit of non-New Yorkers here, "90 West" is a high-value building built in 1907 of steel and masonry. It was very close to the South Tower and sustained major damage when the tower collapsed. It would have shared the fate of WTC7 had it not been built to pre-1938 fireproofing standards that WTC7 lacked.

It appears that FDNY deemed it "fightable" where WTC7 wasn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90_West_Street,_New_York_City

 

[BigAl]

I have videos of buildings on fire at ground zero being hosed down. Let's face it anyway- when the initial small fires were spotted a few teams of firemen could have easily put them out simply by using a trucked in supply of fire extinguishers.

Your excuses sound more ridiculous all the time.

Troll much?

 

[T.A.M.]

Pressure loss in a pipe (Hose) is a function of distance, diameter, flow rate, and wall friction.
Additionally, 32 feet of elevation is about 1 atmosphere (14.7 psi) (30 feet for salt water), so to pump water up 10 floors requires a MINIMUM of 40PSI (with no flow), not counting line loss.
(BTW, the pressure loss per 75 Meters of 2 1/2 inch fire hose with no elevation gain is about 14 psi... at 500L/min--and it gets worse at higher flow rates, better for larger diameter hose)

Exactly. Hence my comment about Tony's suggestion that there were distant fire hydrants that could have been used. Well how distant? I mean if they were over in New Jersey...as an extreme example.

TAM

 

[WildCat]

Troll much?

Trolls can be starved...

 

[bill smith]

So in your paranoid universe, the FDNY is "in on it."

Got it.

Don't be deliberately stupid. You are well aware that nobody is talking about he whole fire department having been in on it. Some senior FDNY people and some of their more juinior accomlicles certainly were. The rest did an exemplary job.

 

[Edx]

Don't be deliberately stupid. Youare well aware that nobody is talking about he whole fire department having been in on it. Some senior FDNY people and some of their more juinior accomlicles certainly were. The rest did an exeemplary job.

Dont be deliberately obtuse. You are well aware that the entire department would have to be in on it for them to coverup a WTC7 demolition and lie to everyone about it.

 

[Edx]

I have videos of buildings on fire at ground zero being hosed down. Let's face it anyway- when the initial small fires were spotted a few teams of firemen could have easily put them out simply by using a trucked in supply of fire extinguishers.

Your excuses sound more ridiculous all the time.

And you base this on what? Do you have firefighting experience? Why do none of the firemen act surprised that building 7's fire couldnt be put out, that it was going to collase and how it collapsed?

Yes, you do indeed implicate the entire FDNY.

 

[T.A.M.]

Don't be deliberately stupid. You are well aware that nobody is talking about he whole fire department having been in on it. Some senior FDNY people and some of their more juinior accomlicles certainly were. The rest did an exeemplary job.

yes, and like the rest of the TM, you will sit behind the computer and claim that some non-descript, no name given, "senior FDNY people" and their "juinior accomlicles" were in on it.

Easy to say when you don't know (through ignorance) or don't care to know (through purposeful obfuscation) who these alleged perpetrators were.

Be a man bill, name names. At least Tony had the balls to name Nigro.

TAM

 

[tfk]

Tony,

Why do you desperately grasp at such ludicrous straws?

Distant hydrants would not have been affected

What diameter are the mains, Tony?
What diameter are the hoses, Tony?
What diameter are the restrictor orifices to get the flow velocity needed to get to, say, the 10th floor.
How many fire hoses were running simultaneously, Tony?

Do a simple fluids analysis, Tony.

Or listen to the firefighters saying "There was no water."

Stupid statement, Tony.

and the city of New York had several fireboats.

They used a couple.

Quick, Tony. What kind of fires are fire boats usually charged with fighting?

LAND based fires?
Or fires on the water, where they can float up within distance of their water cannons?

Quick, Tony. You're in charge. That fire crew wants to hook their line up to the FDNY's hoses.
You know, they found the fittings to do so. I'm damned impressed.
Then they started pumping.

How long was the line from the river to WTC7, Tony? 200' ? I don't think so. 400'? 1000'?
HOW MANY of these long strings of hoses do you think that they should have run? 2? 10? 100?
How many fire boats did they have to supply those strings, Tony? 2? 10? 100?
Where do they get that much hose, Tony?

WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO to indulge this back-breaking, exhausting effort if you know that you need 50 hoses to have a PRAYER of knocking down the fires on the lower stories, but you know that the most you're gonna get is 3?

And now, you look at the results of the hose that they DID run.
How high up the buildings did it reach, Tony? 4th floor? 8th floor? 10th floor?

How high was the building, Tony? 47 stories.

WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO to indulge this back-breaking, exhausting effort if the top 37 stories of the building are still burning and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it?

Firefighters routinely run lines from distances when necessary.

What distance, Tony?
100'? Yep
200'? Yep
500'? Getting tough.
1000'? Doubt it.

How far do you have to go to get any meaningful water pressure? 1 mile? 5 miles? 10 miles?
How much water comes out of your [6"?, 8"?) diameter hose when you're trying to shoot it (10 stories? 20 stories? 47 stories?) in the air.

Sorry but the water mains in the area were broken by the tower collapses excuse doesn't hack it.

Sorry, Tony. This is the latest of your lame, shoot from the hip, unanalyzed "feelings".


Tom

 

[bill smith]

Dont be deliberately obtuse. You are well aware that the entire department would have to be in on it for them to coverup a WTC7 demolition and lie to everyone about it.

Most of the others may not have been aware of what was going on and for those who suspected I think there would have been extemely brutal coercion at play.

I have proof that at least a few of the FDNY knew that the buildings were primed for demolition. Those few vindicate everytng I am saying.

 

[Edx]

Most of the others may not have been aware of what was going on and for those who suspected I think there would have been extemely brutal coercion at play.

So they are lying, jesus what is wrong with you?

That means they are in on the coverup.

I have proof that at least a few of the FDNY knew that the buildings were primed for deemolition. Those few vindicate everytng I am saying.

Well go then, we've been waiting years for that.

 

[T.A.M.]

Most of the others may not have been aware of what was going on and for those who suspected I think there would have been extemely brutal coercion at play.

I have proof that at least a few of the FDNY knew that the buildings were primed for deemolition. Those few vindicate everytng I am saying.

please show us this proof. This should be good.

TAM

 

[bill smith]

yes, and like the rest of the TM, you will sit behind the computer and claim that some non-descript, no name given, "senior FDNY people" and their "juinior accomlicles" were in on it.

Easy to say when you don't know (through ignorance) or don't care to know (through purposeful obfuscation) who these alleged perpetrators were.

Be a man bill, name names. At least Tony had the balls to name Nigro.

TAM

Nigro will do for starters. I too would like him to be closely questioned under oath at the earlist opportunity.

 

[bill smith]

please show us this proof. This should be good.

TAM

I'm looking for the link. I will find it in due course. Exciting isn't it ? lol

 

[cyclonic]

Most of the others may not have been aware of what was going on and for those who suspected I think there would have been extemely brutal coercion at play.

I have proof that at least a few of the FDNY knew that the buildings were primed for deemolition. Those few vindicate everytng I am saying.

Well you going to show us this "proof" or whistle dixie?