Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Skeptic Ginger]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091205/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_student_slain

The reason I bring this up here is this trial was based on a criminal (as in he's a criminal) prosecutor and involved cultural face saving rather evidence of guilt. I heard an interview of a reporter who understood the issues and he said they would find her guilty despite the fact there is no evidence, because once the prosecutor stuck his neck out he had to continue to "save face". Apparently she might get out in ~2 years when the appeals court overturns the conviction.

I'll look for some more links with the rest of the story.


The cartwheel BTW, for those of you not familiar with the case, was what Knox did in the police station when she was being questioned. That made the police think she was too casual and made her guilty.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091205/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_student_slain

The reason I bring this up here is this trial was based on a criminal (as in he's a criminal) prosecutor and involved cultural face saving rather evidence of guilt. I heard an interview of a reporter who understood the issues and he said they would find her guilty despite the fact there is no evidence, because once the prosecutor stuck his neck out he had to continue to "save face". Apparently she might get out in ~2 years when the appeals court overturns the conviction.

I'll look for some more links with the rest of the story.


The cartwheel BTW, for those of you not familiar with the case, was what Knox did in the police station when she was being questioned. That made the police think she was too casual and made her guilty.

And the prosecutors, police, jury and judge all say she's guilty.

Fancy that. To think that you might*** be wrong.


***Are

 

[Dunstan]

And the prosecutors, police, jury and judge all say she's guilty.

Fancy that. To think that you might*** be wrong.


***Are

But didn't you read? Skeptigirl heard a reporter say that she's innocent! Good enough for me!

And the whole thing was based on a cartwheel. Well, that and motive, opportunity, DNA evidence, faking a burglary and falsely accusing an innocent man.

 

[newton3376]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091205/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_student_slain

The reason I bring this up here is this trial was based on a criminal (as in he's a criminal) prosecutor and involved cultural face saving rather evidence of guilt. I heard an interview of a reporter who understood the issues and he said they would find her guilty despite the fact there is no evidence, because once the prosecutor stuck his neck out he had to continue to "save face". Apparently she might get out in ~2 years when the appeals court overturns the conviction.

I'll look for some more links with the rest of the story.


The cartwheel BTW, for those of you not familiar with the case, was what Knox did in the police station when she was being questioned. That made the police think she was too casual and made her guilty.

She is guilty as can be....there won't be anything overturned. She will spend the next 20+ years in jail.

Sounds to me like you have some kind of chip on your shoulder or something.....not that it matters anyway, she is going to prison. End of story.

 

[lionking]

I've followed this case in local papers and over the web. "Innocent victim of unfair, corrupt foreign legal system" just doesn't wash.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

But didn't you read? Skeptigirl heard a reporter say that she's innocent! Good enough for me!

You're right. I missed that part. How could I be so naive?

 

[Drudgewire]

I've followed this case in local papers and over the web. "Innocent victim of unfair, corrupt foreign legal system" just doesn't wash.

No way, it fits perfectly.

Oh wait, they convicted the girl instead of the Congolese dude she tried to frame for the murder? Never mind.

 

[maxpower1227]

Ok, maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought the case against Knox sounded extremely shady. Particularly the fact that, as I understand it, prosecutors were sure they had their killers within days, only to pick up a vagrant months later who had fled to Germany, who was tied to the crime scene by DNA evidence, and who claimed that while he was making out with Kercher, he went to the bathroom due to eating some bad food, was listening to his iPod while in the bathroom, and came out to find Kercher dying. That seemed extremely shady to me, and I never heard a plausible motive for Knox to have murdered Kercher (the whole "thrill sex murder" or whatever term they used seemed horribly contrived). I was unaware of any physical evidence tying her to the scene.

Was the case against her more solid than I'm understanding it to be?

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

The reason I bring this up here is this trial was based on a criminal (as in he's a criminal) prosecutor and involved cultural face saving rather evidence of guilt. I heard an interview of a reporter who understood the issues and he said they would find her guilty despite the fact there is no evidence, because once the prosecutor stuck his neck out he had to continue to "save face". Apparently she might get out in ~2 years when the appeals court overturns the conviction.

I'm not quite sure that I'd go as far as to say she was found guilty because of a cartwheel, but (with my very limited knowledge of Italian law) I do think that the intense media attention, coupled with an non-sequestered jury, is a tailor-made appeal.

After reading Douglas Preston's book The Monster of Florence, I don't have the best impression of Italian police, so I probably have some bias. The prosecution case didn't make a lot of sense to me, from what I've read of their theory for motive and how the victim was actually killed. On the other hand, Amanda Knox's stories don't seem to make a lot of sense either (though on Nightline today, one of her lawyer's seemed to claim the police literally fed her the story of being home and covering her ears, etc. but who the heck knows).

 

[maxpower1227]

She reportedly gave a confession while in police custody for 30 hours with no lawyer present, so I'm not sure how trustworthy that would be.

 

[tyr_13]

Having not heard of this before, the biggest red flag that I can see is the 'DNA contamination' silliness that OJ used. If the sample is of poor quality it won't come back with a match. Of course it could actually be a plant, so who knows.

Other than that, I'm having trouble finding much verifiable besides the media divide of American media saying she's innocent and Italy the opposite.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Having not heard of this before, the biggest red flag that I can see is the 'DNA contamination' silliness that OJ used. If the sample is of poor quality it won't come back with a match.

Yep. If Joe's DNA is on the shoe, and Bill picks the shoe up, then that magically converts Joe's DNA to Sam's. Which is also what OJ's lawyers argued. Sadly, the idiot jury in that case bought it.

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

I just did a little Googling and realized the prosecutor that Douglas Preston tears into in his book The Monster of Florence is the person who was in charge of the Knox case. That makes me considerably more sympathetic to what skeptigirl is saying (for those unfamiliar, Preston is a fairly popular thriller/action writer, though the above title is non-fiction).

Here is an interview with Douglas Preston about both his experience with this same prosecutor and his take on the Knox case. Granted -- Preston has one point of view on the guy, and he certainly isn't an expert on real-life crime. Here is a fairly pertinent part of what he says about the prosecutor, though:

Giuliano Mignini is a prosecutor who just falls in love with conspiracy theories. Nothing is simple. Nothing is what it seems.

Let me give you an example of this. My co-writer Spezi and I believe the Monster of Florence is a lone psychopath. He killed seven couples, fourteen people. He mutilated the women and cut off their sex organs. Really horrifying.

A psychological profile prepared by the American FBI of the Monster stated that he is a lone killer. All the Italian forensic psychologists stated he was a lone killer. And all the evidence gathered at the crime scenes pointed to a single perpetrator.

But this is too simple for Mignini. He believes the Monster killings were the work not of a lone killer but a satanic sect dating back to the Middle Ages. His theory, based on nonexistent evidence, supposition and conspiracy logic, was that this sect was operating in high places in government and they needed female body parts to perform Black Masses.

Of course, this doesn't mean Knox is innocent. It could very well be that the prosecutor is a nut, but that she is nevertheless guilty. I don't know. But skeptigirl's...well, skepticism has some foundation here, IMO.

 

[Dunstan]

Of course, this doesn't mean Knox is innocent. It could very well be that the prosecutor is a nut, but that she is nevertheless guilty. I don't know. But skeptigirl's...well, skepticism has some foundation here, IMO.

I wouldn't call it that, and that's kind of the point. Or my point, at least. I haven't followed the case all that closely. But skeptigirl's OP is hardly an exercise in skepticism. She links to an article that cites numerous items of evidence of Knox's guilt, yet concludes that Knox was found guilty "all because of a cartwheel," citing a unnamed reporter's opinion that the prosecutor is biased.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I've followed this closely and it has all the markings of being a wrongful conviction. There just isn't much in the way of evidence to point to her. There isn't really even a decent motive. Add to that the completely whack prosecutor and the painfully broken italian legal system and you have the makings of a mistake.

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

I wouldn't call it that, and that's kind of the point. Or my point, at least. I haven't followed the case all that closely. But skeptigirl's OP is hardly an exercise in skepticism. She links to an article that cites numerous items of evidence of Knox's guilt, yet concludes that Knox was found guilty "all because of a cartwheel," citing a unnamed reporter's opinion that the prosecutor is biased.

Yes, I agree. That's why I provided the Preston link prior to my comments. The OP link itself doesn't do much of anything to show what skeptigirl claimed (and I certainly don't think Knox was convicted "because of a cartwheel") -- not sure why she chose that article to lead this thread -- but there is at least some "smoke" out there regarding the person who prosecuted this case (he was indicted for abuse of power, amongst other things). Like I said -- that's certainly not proof that Knox is innocent, but the idea that there might have been some shenanigans seems at least plausible.

 

[Policenaut]

Both sides are shady. I don't trust either one but especially Knox who lied, misled, falsely implicated, and generally acted in a suspicious manner after the murder.

 

[Fnord]

But ... I read it in the Interwebs, so it must be true!

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

For a few more details about the Mignini-Preston thing, here is a copy of a letter Preston wrote to journalist organizations after his writing partner was arrested. It contains a pretty good rundown of his version of events -- this was from 2006, so a couple years prior to the Knox case. (The letter is published in the book, but I could only find its full text on the Internet on this blog).

The Committee to Protect Journalists also wrote a letter to the Italian government regarding Mignini.

Interestingly, the prosecutor's original theory of this crime was that Kercher was killed in a Satanic rite (which appears consistent with Prestons's characterization of how he defaults to wild theories).

Amanda Knox, an American exchange student, stabbed her British fellow student and flatmate Meredith Kercher in the neck at the culmination of a satanic rite, a prosecutor told a Perugia court yesterday.

Winding up his case against Rudy Guede, another suspect in the killing of 21-year-old Kercher last November, the prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, added that Mr Guede then strangled her while the third accused, Ms Knox's boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, held her down.

Incidentally, Amanda Knox's parents are now under investigation for defamation, stemming from an interview they gave in 2008. The prosecutor earlier attempted to charge an American newspaper with defamation (or file a lawsuit, not sure which) for reporting on a story about a fundraiser for Knox.

 

[Wolfman]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091205/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_student_slain

The reason I bring this up here is this trial was based on a criminal (as in he's a criminal) prosecutor and involved cultural face saving rather evidence of guilt. I heard an interview of a reporter who understood the issues and he said they would find her guilty despite the fact there is no evidence, because once the prosecutor stuck his neck out he had to continue to "save face". Apparently she might get out in ~2 years when the appeals court overturns the conviction.

I'll look for some more links with the rest of the story.


The cartwheel BTW, for those of you not familiar with the case, was what Knox did in the police station when she was being questioned. That made the police think she was too casual and made her guilty.

Once again, I find myself wondering exactly what the "skepti" in "skeptigirl" stands for.

Granted, there are questions about the prosecution's motivations here. However, they have DNA. And far more damningly, they have a woman who not only blatantly lied about what happened, but tried to frame another man in the process!

So this poor, sweet, innocent girl thinks, "Oh, gee, I'm innocent, so I'll just make up a bunch of bull-crap and say that actually another guy was responsible...and when it turns out that he actually has an iron-clad alibi, I'll just take it back and say I was 'confused'."

I will agree with you about one aspect of this -- so long as one ignores absolutely everything that indicates she may be guilty, then yes, it is quite easy to see this as a blatant miscarriage of justice against an innocent woman.