Moderated Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

[kitakaze]

I save my opinions about Bigfoot research for people who actually get in the field or have the field experience to constructively criticize it.

Does this refer to people who have a great amount of experience with mountains, forests, and wildlife such as myself, or just people who go look for Bigfoot? I ask this because you don't know a single person who's ever come up with a single shred of reliable evidence and get constructive criticism from people who don't believe in Bigfoot all the time.

I do think Bigfoot are widespread geographically, but I do not think the animal exists in great numbers.

Well, they must not live in in any significant numbers at all if they are to elude science. So what is a number you are thinking for Bigfoot's population? Also, can you list for me which states you think Bigfoot doesn't exist in? How do these animals avoid bottlenecking their breeding population?

Remember now, being extremely rare and elusive and living in remote areas does not keep you from being a known animal in North America...

 

[WGBH]

Does this refer to people who have a great amount of experience with mountains, forests, and wildlife such as myself, or just people who go look for Bigfoot? I ask this because you don't know a single person who's ever come up with a single shred of reliable evidence and get constructive criticism from people who don't believe in Bigfoot all the time.

Kit, I love the PNW and it would be great for you to show me around. I personally never go out to look for Bigfoot, I just follow around my friends who do. I am just learning my way around the woods.

Didn't you see me in the Dolly Sods video sleeping in my camp chair? That is how the WGBH rolls...

Right, no one really knows jack about finding Bigfoot, but I am always looking to learn, try and hear new ideas.

I would love to learn Drew's technique for charging blindly at noises in the dark with a large knife.



Well, they must not live in in any significant numbers at all if they are to elude science. So what is a number you are thinking for Bigfoot's population?

IMO about 2 thousand.

Also, can you list for me which states you think Bigfoot doesn't exist in?

I think the two states with no sightings are Rhode Island and Hawaii. I cant really answer that question because I have only been squatching in VA, WV, PA, Ohio and Washington State.


How do these animals avoid bottlenecking their breeding population?

You mean inbreeding or just plain finding each other? Either way I am sure they are finding obstacles.

Remember now, being extremely rare and elusive and living in remote areas does not keep you from being a known animal in North America...

Of course not.

 

[WGBH]

OK, so both of us are drawing blanks for reasonable options of an external agent that caused you to have a seizure just before you witnessed the massive beast unknown to science 27 years ago just outside Elizabeth City in North Carolina.

Can you think of a physiological cause for a type of seizure? This doesn't need to include something that would cause you to hallucinate.

I think Drew, Vort and yourself have already listed several of those possible causes.

 

[HarryHenderson]

Good Morning Harry,

I will admit that I need to be more patient and probably over reacted. I am not humbled in the least by the JREF and please explain why you think I should be. Is it because you feel I have been treated well by the members here? Fine, but that is the way people should act in a public forum and IMO it does not really need to be acknowledged. It should be expected. For the record, I have no problem at all with my personal treatment here at the JREF and If I did, I can just ignore the people responsible.

My "friends" are not mysterious people on a internet forum who I have no personal connection or experience with.

Okay so the straight-up honest in-your-face approach didn't quite work. Fine. Let's try another way. You John Cartwright come here to a skeptic's forum, describe your own Bigfoot experience of some 25 years ago, express and lament the 'negative effect' the experience has had on you those same last 25 years, and THEN (essentially) REFUSE to SINCERELY and INTELLIGENTLY consider virtually everything the forum mentions if its core idea doesn't somehow involve something that's not only F&B, but only F&B Bigfoot.

But let's forget all that. The nice people here at the JREF somehow someway like you anyway, you seem like a nice enough guy and your adult life has seemed more than a bit troubled by this Bigfoot 'thang'. They are concerned. They start wanting to know the cause of your angst as much as you do. And thus to get to the bottom of it they allow you your 'contemptuous disdain' for their regular (usually) intelligent and inevitably helpful input so as to help you put all the pieces together. They are actually interested and concerned. So much so in fact they literally refuse to mention barely a word that might be construed in any way as some kind of 'offense' to you. Nobody wants to unduly 'upset' Mr. John Cartwright, and yet Mr. John Cartwright has done scant little to actually deserve such EXTRA SPECIAL TREATMENT ('special' in that I'm not aware of any other posters at the JREF receiving such). That is unless you consider John Cartwright's 'humoring the clowns' and 'shining everyone on' attitude to be appropriate. You John Cartwright are given EVERY and ALL benefit-of-the-doubt by these people about your so-called 'Bigfoot encounter' ALL WHILE you REJECT out of hand almost EVERYTHING logical and intelligent they say to you.

So anyway, the astute and savvy 'big cheese' of The John Cartwright Bigfoot And Equal Rights Project, Kitakaze, righteously attempts to take you under his wing so as to potentially mentor you in the ways of 'reality versus hope'. Yet FAILS at every turn to convince you not only is it possible you didn't see a real Bigfoot, but that it's HIGHLY LIKELY you didn't. He's unwaivering though, he trudges on, and with the patience of Job, regularly and methodically tackles the JC Project, inevitably HOPING to be a part of some kind of a Bigfoot breakthrough with JC. If for no other reason than to allow JC to get on with his life and finally get some damn sleep.

But NOPE it's not to be. Everything I mention above is still not enough for one Mr. John Cartwright. He considers, and has apparently convinced others of his group, ANY attempts at an 'intelligent discussion' of his case to be a PERSECUTION OF HIM if it in any way contradicts his contention that what he saw was a real live beast. As such, all the collective INTELLIGENCE in what has been said in the thousands and thousands of words put forth on behalf of John Cartwright literally becomes moot.

And then POOF, somebody popped a 'random funny' that John Cartwright disapproved of and BLAM...it's reported! Oh and that 'somebody who was funny' is that same PRO-John Cartwright advocate mentioned above. The single ONE GUY John Cartwright SHOULD have held some serious 'Bigfoot respect' for...but just couldn't. Not sure how much more obvious I need to be to show John Cartwright hasn't a clue who his 'friends' are.

I admit I was wrong about John Cartwright in my previous post. He needs a lot more than some humbling.

I'm now sooo done, done and DONE with this! Good luck!

 

[WGBH]

Wow, even Kit is not that mad.

 

[tsig]

So your theory is that I began a hoax in 1998 when I made my BFRO report and waited 8 years to spring my trap? I have only been talking about my encounter since 2006 and only publicly for about a year.

When you say you have seen something that is contradictory to facts certain conclusions must be drawn.

 

[kitakaze]

Wow, even Kit is not that mad.

I'm not even that mad? I forgot where I was a little mad. Am I mad? I don't feel very mad. Where was I mad?

Really, I'm not mad. I would like to help in any way I can, but I can only help as much as the other person is willing. I can't be a doctor or psychologist. I can only look at the scenario deductively.

It's quite simple...

1) Seizure.

2) Bigfoot sighting.

Related or unrelated? Did the Bigfoot make the seizure, did the seizure make the Bigfoot, or did the seizure just coincidentally happen right before the Bigfoot sighting? John will not allow for the second option, considers the first, and says the third is most likely.

As a rational thinking person, I can confidentally rule out the first option. Apes do not frazzle people with infrasound or chemical attacks. The second one is what is in accordance with known and documented phenomena. People can see things under the right circumstances. I think the seizure is directly related to the sighting. I think its really a far outside that John got some external agent that caused the seizure and hallucination. I think it was something physiological/neurological. Stress induced, anxiety induced, something. Maybe he saw something and confabulated it in his mind. Maybe something totally different happened and John's mind made a false Bigfoot memory. There really does seem to be an inordinate amount of trauma just from seeing a big ape blithely chewing on mulberry branches 50 yards away.

John isn't having any of that, so all I can do is to continue to say "OK, let's look deductively at the other options." It's important to remember that we can't just settle at accepting he saw Bigfoot. We will always have to take into account the seizure also. I think the likelihood of those events being unrelated is just too far out there, AFAIC.

 

[WGBH]

I'm not even that mad? I forgot where I was a little mad. Am I mad? I don't feel very mad. Where was I mad?

Really, I'm not mad. I would like to help in any way I can, but I can only help as much as the other person is willing. I can't be a doctor or psychologist. I can only look at the scenario deductively.

It's quite simple...

1) Seizure.

2) Bigfoot sighting.

Related or unrelated? Did the Bigfoot make the seizure, did the seizure make the Bigfoot, or did the seizure just coincidentally happen right before the Bigfoot sighting? John will not allow for the second option, considers the first, and says the third is most likely.

As a rational thinking person, I can confidentally rule out the first option. Apes do not frazzle people with infrasound or chemical attacks. The second one is what is in accordance with known and documented phenomena. People can see things under the right circumstances. I think the seizure is directly related to the sighting. I think its really a far outside that John got some external agent that caused the seizure and hallucination. I think it was something physiological/neurological. Stress induced, anxiety induced, something. Maybe he saw something and confabulated it in his mind. Maybe something totally different happened and John's mind made a false Bigfoot memory. There really does seem to be an inordinate amount of trauma just from seeing a big ape blithely chewing on mulberry branches 50 yards away.

John isn't having any of that, so all I can do is to continue to say "OK, let's look deductively at the other options." It's important to remember that we can't just settle at accepting he saw Bigfoot. We will always have to take into account the seizure also. I think the likelihood of those events being unrelated is just too far out there, AFAIC.

I know you are not mad. Lets go over this:

As a rational thinking person, I can confidentally rule out the first option. Apes do not frazzle people with infrasound or chemical attacks.

I would tend to agree with this. I lean towards the 2 events being unrelated.

The second one is what is in accordance with known and documented phenomena. People can see things under the right circumstances. I think the seizure is directly related to the sighting. I think its really a far outside that John got some external agent that caused the seizure and hallucination. I think it was something physiological/neurological.

Of these 2 theories the most plausible would be neurological and that IMO
is a big stretch. There was no history and nothing physically wrong with me.

Stress induced, anxiety induced, something.

Nope and Nope

Maybe he saw something and confabulated it in his mind. Maybe something totally different happened and John's mind made a false Bigfoot memory.

Always possible, but as I have asked before, why a Bigfoot? I hardly knew what a Bigfoot was.

There really does seem to be an inordinate amount of trauma just from seeing a big ape blithely chewing on mulberry branches 50 yards away.

I get that a lot. What the heck scared you so bad John? Perhaps a Huge Monster come to life standing in front of me? Regardless of if it was real (and it was) , it's enough to give any kid nightmares.

 

[Vortigern99]

Of [kitikaze's] 2 theories the most plausible would be neurological and that IMO is a big stretch. There was no history and nothing physically wrong with me.

I think this is the closest WGBH has come to allowing the possibility that his experience might have been with something other than a real, living animal.

I would like to repeat here that thousands of normal, sane, healthy people have experienced one-time hallucinations that never recurred (apologies for the redundancy; see Drewbot's numbers crunching, upthread on this page).

A singular hallucination brought on by fatigue, isolation and/or stress -- all of which WGBH describes in his original account of the incident -- does not require a "history" of hallucinations, nor any other ailment, physiological or neurological, in order to present itself a single time.

Stress induced, anxiety induced, something.

Nope and Nope

WGBH, your own account of the event contradicts your repeated (and terse) assertions that stress, anxiety and fatigue were not factors in the sighting. The stress you describe as being associated with being isolated in a small, contained space up in a tree, holding a loaded rifle, when you had never been in the woods or armed with a loaded weapon prior to that night, is sufficient to counter your claim that you experienced no anxiety. The lateness/earliness of the hour counters your assertion that you experienced no fatigue.

Maybe he saw something and confabulated it in his mind. Maybe something totally different happened and John's mind made a false Bigfoot memory.

Always possible, but as I have asked before, why a Bigfoot? I hardly knew what a Bigfoot was.

Yes, you asked that before, but when I offered a reply, back on page 36, you offered no response:

I don't understand why you think there has to be a reason that you, or anyone, might hallucinate one specific image over another. Why does kitkaze sometimes hallucinate a demonic entity trying to strangle him in his bed? Why do people hallucinate short gray beings abducting them and/or performing odd medical experiments on them? Why have other JREF members seen any number of weird figures crossing the road as they drive late at night on lonely roads? Why did medieval nuns sometimes hallucinate that the devil was visiting them in their bed at night to suck the life out of them and/or rape them?

These are fascinating questions worthy of inquiry, but that there is a mystery involved does not point towards the objective reality of the object or personage that is being hallucinated.

Hallucination is a waking dream. You're not responsible for the imagery being projected from your subconscious during a dream; as I'm sure you well know, on any given night you might dream any number of bizarre events/characters/images that may or may not have any relationship to the people or events you've encountered in your waking life.

So it is with hallucination. There is no reason for the images being projected, so far as we know; what's important [in this case] is simply that they occur.

 

[Cuddles]

I lean towards the 2 events being unrelated.

...snip...

Of these 2 theories the most plausible would be neurological and that IMO
is a big stretch. There was no history and nothing physically wrong with me.

There appears to be a rather serious contradiction here. On the one hand, you say that the two events were probably unrelated. Given that the "bigfoot" was not the cause of the seizure, clearly it must have had some other, presumably normal, cause. But in the second case you dismiss that by claiming that there was nothing wrong with you and no prior history.

So how does that add up? Either you agree it was a regular seizure, in which case clearly there was something wrong with you and the lack of history is irrelevant, or it was not a regular seizure and the two events were somehow connected. You can't have it both ways. If you want the events to be separate, you have to accept that a seizure of that kind can explain all the events without needing to postulate the existence of bigfoot. If you don't accept that, then you pretty much have to assume that bigfoot caused the seizure. The only other choice is to claim that you had some kind of extra-special seizure that wasn't caused by bigfoot, but has nothing in common with regular seizures and would count as a paranormal, or at least pseudoscientific, claim in its own right.

 

[clayflingythingy]

So your theory is that I began a hoax in 1998 when I made my BFRO report and waited 8 years to spring my trap? I have only been talking about my encounter since 2006 and only publicly for about a year.

Since BF doesn't exist, you didn't have an "encounter".

 

[Drewbot]

There appears to be a rather serious contradiction here. On the one hand, you say that the two events were probably unrelated. Given that the "bigfoot" was not the cause of the seizure, clearly it must have had some other, presumably normal, cause. But in the second case you dismiss that by claiming that there was nothing wrong with you and no prior history.

So how does that add up? Either you agree it was a regular seizure, in which case clearly there was something wrong with you and the lack of history is irrelevant, or it was not a regular seizure and the two events were somehow connected. You can't have it both ways. If you want the events to be separate, you have to accept that a seizure of that kind can explain all the events without needing to postulate the existence of bigfoot. If you don't accept that, then you pretty much have to assume that bigfoot caused the seizure. The only other choice is to claim that you had some kind of extra-special seizure that wasn't caused by bigfoot, but has nothing in common with regular seizures and would count as a paranormal, or at least pseudoscientific, claim in its own right.

Thank you Lt. Caffy. His seizure was not caused by Bigfoot, yet he was too healthy to have a seizure.

My point, and I believe Vort's point is that Narcolepsy does not affect only unhealthy people, it affects otherwise healthy people as well. WGBH's pristine health at the time has no bearing on whether he could have had a cataplectic attack due to Narcolepsy. And since he has not said whether he was given an MSLT test (nap test) his doctor can not rule that out. If one of my patients tells me he is having bad dreams, is sleeping alot, and is tired during the day, I would ask him if he has ever collapsed in a heap before, If he said yes I would 100% prescribe an MSLT.

John, have you told your doctor, that you collapsed in a heap that day, and that it happened while having a very emotional experience?

If you have, and he hasn't sent you to a sleep specialist, then I would get a second opinion.

 

[Drewbot]

Cuddles? What happened to William Parcher's post about BigTex, The post about how BigTex (A self-proclaimed Bigfoot hunter) embellishes, if not lies about stories?

WilliamParcher's point was that Bigfooters don't really see Bigfoot, just as they don't really see Rat Snakes eating cats on their porch.

The OP :

....anyone seen a real life sasquatch?

William Parcher was saying 'No' they don't see sasquatch, they fib about it.

PS - I think it was around POST 1676

 

[WGBH]

I think this is the closest WGBH has come to allowing the possibility that his experience might have been with something other than a real, living animal.

There is ALWAYS a possibility Vort. There is also a possibilty I saw what I saw.

I would like to repeat here that thousands of normal, sane, healthy people have experienced one-time hallucinations that never recurred (apologies for the redundancy; see Drewbot's numbers crunching, upthread on this page).

Right

A singular hallucination brought on by fatigue, isolation and/or stress -- all of which WGBH describes in his original account of the incident -- does not require a "history" of hallucinations, nor any other ailment, physiological or neurological, in order to present itself a single time.

I was not stressed until the sighting.



WGBH, your own account of the event contradicts your repeated (and terse) assertions that stress, anxiety and fatigue were not factors in the sighting. The stress you describe as being associated with being isolated in a small, contained space up in a tree, holding a loaded rifle, when you had never been in the woods or armed with a loaded weapon prior to that night, is sufficient to counter your claim that you experienced no anxiety. The lateness/earliness of the hour counters your assertion that you experienced no fatigue.

See above answer. I also was not holding the rifle, it was lying on the floor of the stand.


Yes, you asked that before, but when I offered a reply, back on page 36, you offered no response:

Sorry Vort, I am going to need a better answer then " the mind can come up with weird things."

 

[WGBH]

Thank you Lt. Caffy. His seizure was not caused by Bigfoot, yet he was too healthy to have a seizure.

My point, and I believe Vort's point is that Narcolepsy does not affect only unhealthy people, it affects otherwise healthy people as well. WGBH's pristine health at the time has no bearing on whether he could have had a cataplectic attack due to Narcolepsy. And since he has not said whether he was given an MSLT test (nap test) his doctor can not rule that out. If one of my patients tells me he is having bad dreams, is sleeping alot, and is tired during the day, I would ask him if he has ever collapsed in a heap before, If he said yes I would 100% prescribe an MSLT.

John, have you told your doctor, that you collapsed in a heap that day, and that it happened while having a very emotional experience?

If you have, and he hasn't sent you to a sleep specialist, then I would get a second opinion.

Drew, which part of I went to sleep disorder Docs BEFORE the psychologist did you not understand? Yes I told the psychologist the entire story.

 

[WGBH]

There appears to be a rather serious contradiction here. On the one hand, you say that the two events were probably unrelated. Given that the "bigfoot" was not the cause of the seizure, clearly it must have had some other, presumably normal, cause. But in the second case you dismiss that by claiming that there was nothing wrong with you and no prior history.

So how does that add up? Either you agree it was a regular seizure, in which case clearly there was something wrong with you and the lack of history is irrelevant, or it was not a regular seizure and the two events were somehow connected. You can't have it both ways. If you want the events to be separate, you have to accept that a seizure of that kind can explain all the events without needing to postulate the existence of bigfoot. If you don't accept that, then you pretty much have to assume that bigfoot caused the seizure. The only other choice is to claim that you had some kind of extra-special seizure that wasn't caused by bigfoot, but has nothing in common with regular seizures and would count as a paranormal, or at least pseudoscientific, claim in its own right.

There are other reasons that could have caused the seizure episode most have been listed here. Maybe it was not a seizure at all?

 

[rockinkt]

...may not have any relationship to the people or events you've encountered in your waking life.

Sooo - you're saying that my dreams about me and Nicole Kidman have no basis in fact?
Damn! You really know how to hurt a guy.

 

[Drewbot]

Drew, which part of I went to sleep disorder Docs BEFORE the psychologist did you not understand? Yes I told the psychologist the entire story.

Yes, but you never said if he gave you an MSLT (nap test), this would be the test that rules out Narcolepsy. Geesh.

 

[Bitter Monk]

Yes I told the psychologist the entire story.

Including your sighting? If you're willing to share I'd love to hear the psychologist's take on it.

 

[kitakaze]

There are other reasons that could have caused the seizure episode most have been listed here. Maybe it was not a seizure at all?

John, I have a few questions.

1) It was between September and October in North Carolina. Were there many insects such as mosquitoes in the woods by the Pasquotank River?

2) From the time you came to the Pasquotank, can you remember everything you ate up until your sighting? At least from the time you were up.

3) Do you have any photos from when you were 17?