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America vs. The Narrative

JihadJane

not a camel
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
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“Yes, after two decades in which U.S. foreign policy has been largely dedicated to rescuing Muslims or trying to help free them from tyranny — in Bosnia, Darfur, Kuwait, Somalia, Lebanon, Kurdistan, post-earthquake Pakistan, post-tsunami Indonesia, Iraq and Afghanistan — a narrative that says America is dedicated to keeping Muslims down is thriving.”

- Thomas L. Friedman

'America vs. The Narrative'


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29friedman.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

This made me laugh out loud. What happy delusions!
 
Have no doubt: we punched a fist into the Arab/Muslim world after 9/11, partly to send a message of deterrence, but primarily to destroy two tyrannical regimes — the Taliban and the Baathists — and to work with Afghans and Iraqis to build a different kind of politics. In the process, we did some stupid and bad things.

You didn't really read the article, did you JihadJane?
 
I've read it several times, gtc.

Friedman's fairy tale narrative is as bad as the one he criticizes.
 
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So you post an article that completely disagrees with your own point of view? Go figure.
 
Just a small reminder:
Tom Friedman, The Charlie Rose Show, May 30, 2003:

ROSE: Now that the war is over, and there's some difficulty with the peace, was it worth doing?

FRIEDMAN: I think it was unquestionably worth doing, Charlie. I think that, looking back, I now certainly feel I understand more what the war was about ... What we needed to do was go over to that part of the world, I'm afraid, and burst that bubble. We needed to go over there basically, and take out a very big stick, right in the heart of that world, and burst that bubble...

And what they needed to see was American boys and girls going from house to house, from Basra to Baghdad, and basically saying: which part of this sentence do you understand? You don't think we care about our open society? ... Well, Suck. On. This. That, Charlie, was what this war was about.

We could have hit Saudi Arabia. It was part of that bubble. Could have hit Pakistan. We hit Iraq because we could. That's the real truth.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOF6ZeUvgXs
 
A reminder of what?

Of course they attacked Iraq when they could, they didn't want to attack it when it had rearmed itself. The idea behind a military intervention is to win it.
 
We could have hit Saudi Arabia.

I knew Friedman was embarrassingly ill-informed about a lot of things, but I didn't realize he was completely clueless.

People who think we're at war with Islam are clueless as well (although if Friedman was in charge maybe we would be). It doesn't take much to figure out that Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey are our allies. We've just ****ed over a lot of other countries that happen to be Muslim, along many that are not (i.e. South America, the Caribbean, South-East Asia...)
 
A reminder of what?

Of course they attacked Iraq when they could, they didn't want to attack it when it had rearmed itself. The idea behind a military intervention is to win it.

It's a reminder of Friedman's own pretty part in promoting the "Narrative" he's now preaching against.
 
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Friedman is a joke. I have no idea how its possible that he still garners so much attention. Those excrements he calls books shoulda been the nails in the coffin. Oh please. Tell me more about how the world is flat Mr Friedman, I need some larger pain to distract me from my root canal...
 
Friedman is a joke. I have no idea how its possible that he still garners so much attention. Those excrements he calls books shoulda been the nails in the coffin. Oh please. Tell me more about how the world is flat Mr Friedman, I need some larger pain to distract me from my root canal...

I see alot of personal attack, but no actual content in this post.
 
I see alot of personal attack, but no actual content in this post.

I think that, looking back, I now certainly feel I understand more what the post was about. What we needed to do was basically, and take out a very big stick, right in the heart of Thomas Friedman's stupidity and burst that bubble...

And what they needed to see was JREF boys and girls going from thread to thread, from General Skepticism and The Paranormal to Social Issues & Current Events, and basically saying: which part of this sentence don't you understand? You don't think we care about intelligent discussion? Well, Suck. On. This. That, Paradalis, was what this post was about.

We could have hit George Will. He was part of that bubble. Could have hit Lou Dobbs. We hit Thomas Friedman because we could. That's the real truth.
 
Thats like the easiest challenge in the world Pardalis, so I can only assume your use of the word "can't" was a mistake, and perhaps that sentence should have started with "why won't you", since critiquing friedman is something my 6-year old niece could do.

Friedman asserts the following:

Yes, after two decades in which U.S. foreign policy has been largely dedicated to rescuing Muslims or trying to help free them from tyranny — in Bosnia, Darfur, Kuwait, Somalia, Lebanon, Kurdistan, post-earthquake Pakistan, post-tsunami Indonesia, Iraq and Afghanistan — a narrative that says America is dedicated to keeping Muslims down is thriving.​
Then, a few paragraphs following, says this:
Have no doubt: we punched a fist into the Arab/Muslim world after 9/11, partly to send a message of deterrence, but primarily to destroy two tyrannical regimes — the Taliban and the Baathists — and to work with Afghans and Iraqis to build a different kind of politics. In the process, we did some stupid and bad things. But for every Abu Ghraib, our soldiers and diplomats perpetrated a million acts of kindness aimed at giving Arabs and Muslims a better chance to succeed with modernity and to elect their own leaders.​
So tell me, what "different kind of politics" is being created? The Afghan population is alienated from a thuggish government of selfish, nepotistic parasites, there's torture perpetrated by both Afghan and Iraqi authorities. Iraq censors its press for news stories critical of the regime and sues journalists that cross the line. Women in Afghanistan are no better off than they were under the Taliban. Sounds real "different" to me.

Plus there's the matter that the first quote doesn't jive with the second. Friedman is holding two incongruous ideas in his head at the same time: America the benighted has based its foreign policy on "helping muslims", also we "punched a fist into the Arab world".

There is little recognition that the "punching" of the "fist" is what feeds the narrative he's talking about. As Johann Hari documented recently in The Independent:

To my surprise, the ex-jihadis said their rage about Western foreign policy -- which was real, and burning -- emerged only after their identity crises, and as a result of it. They identified with the story of oppressed Muslims abroad because it seemed to mirror the oppressive disorientation they felt in their own minds. . . .

But once they had made that leap to identify with the Umma – the global Muslim community -- they got angrier the more abusive our foreign policy came. Every one of them said the Bush administration's response to 9/11 -- from Guantanamo to Iraq -- made jihadism seem more like an accurate description of the world. Hadiya Masieh, a tiny female former HT organiser, tells me: "You'd see Bush on the television building torture camps and bombing Muslims and you think -- anything is justified to stop this. What are we meant to do, just stand still and let him cut our throats?"

But the converse was -- they stressed -- also true. When they saw ordinary Westerners trying to uphold human rights, their jihadism began to stutter. Almost all of them said that they doubted their Islamism when they saw a million non-Muslims march in London to oppose the Iraq War: "How could we demonise people who obviously opposed aggression against Muslims?" asks Hadiya.
...
He started to recruit other students, as he had done so many times before. But it was harder. "Everyone hated the [unelected] government [of Hosni Mubarak], and the US for backing it," he says. But there was an inhibiting sympathy for the victims of 9/11 -- until the Bush administration began to respond with Guantanamo Bay and bombs. "That made it much easier. After that, I could persuade people a lot faster."
...
Maajid's Islamist convictions were about to be challenged from two unexpected directions -- the men who murdered Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, and Amnesty International.

HT [the Islamic group which he had headed] abandoned Maajid as a "fallen soldier" and barely spoke of him or his case. But when his family were finally allowed to see him, they told him he had a new defender. Although they abhorred his political views, Amnesty International said he had a right to free speech and to peacefully express his views, and publicised his case.

"I was just amazed," Maajid says. "We'd always seen Amnesty as the soft power tools of colonialism. So, when Amnesty, despite knowing that we hated them, adopted us, I felt -- maybe these democratic values aren't always hypocritical. Maybe some people take them seriously ... it was the beginning of my serious doubts."
Friedman is essentially saying: "why aren't the muslims more grateful for US foreign policy?" and while there is no doubt that a CT-based irrationality feeds the jihadist mindset, there is no question that American policy has exacerbated that. Friedman's listing off of help after natural disasters in muslim countries is not enough to offset that. And he breezily asserts that muslims should see America's two foreign occupations as bringing positive change, of "changing their politics" for the better.

Isn't it obvious how dumb that is??
 
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Islamists will always blame America for everything, nothing new. They will always rationalize their actions and transfer the blame on America.

Oh, and you still use other people's words. I got better things to do than to read biographies of some Islamist turds.
 
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Of course I use other people's words - to buttress and support my points.

That Hari article should be required reading for anyone interested in the jihadist mindset.

To claim openly that you are uninterested in reading the words of jihadists who have moderated and come away from the "struggle" in later years is to shout proudly your willful ignorance. The sub-title reads:

A generation of British Islamists have been trained in Afghanistan to fight a global jihad. But now some of those would-be extremists have had a change of heart. Johann Hari finds out what made them give up the fight
A worthwhile read for those who want to understand what we're up against. Not so much for jingoists and sloganeers who wave away these kinds of inspections in a Manichaean appeal to implacable evil.



Also: Friedman is a putz.
 
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