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Moderated What's wrong with porn?

Declaring that it doesn't make sense doesn't make it true.
Oh not that pathetic old chestnut again. Please tell me I'm imagining it! "It makes sense to me (because I wrote it :rolleyes:) therefore how can it possibly not make sense to eveybody else?" :rolleyes:
Your conceitedness, not to mention your mind-numbingly, boring repetitiveness precedes you.

I've stated your premises as I understand them. [emphasis added]
Well thank you for at least admitting for once that you might possibly be wrong! :rolleyes:

If you dispute any of them then tell which ones and why.
Let's see:
  • Children are statistically likely to be harmed by VCP (there is a perceived threat).
  • VCP is disgusting and no one should defend it.
  • Our concern for children should be greater than any concern of loss of freedom for perverts.
I never claimed anything based on statistics. The term I used was "reasonable to suppose".
Whilst I agree with your second point it has absolutely no relevance to my argument.
I agree with your third bullet if you replace "loss of freedom for perverts" with "loss of freedom of the right to acquire VCPspeech for child molesters".

You've also overlooked:
  • VCP (by my definition) has only one purpose - to sexually arouse people with a morbid interest in children, and
  • We know (we have compelling evidence!) that many people lose judgement when sexually aroused to the extent that they will risk just about any foreseeable consequences in return for satisfying their immediate sexual desire.
Now, there's something mildly entertaining about to start on TV far more deserving of my attention than you RandFan. I'm afraid you'll have to wait until at least tomorrow to continue your spat. I trust your Manga collection will keep you occupied.
 
Your conceitedness, not to mention your mind-numbingly, boring repetitiveness precedes you.
Personal attack.

I never claimed anything based on statistics.
Yes you did. You didn't use the word "statistics" but you gave us number of people and then posited a ratio. Do I really have to spend so much time to prove it? I will do so if you ask but I would expect an appology.

The term I used was "reasonable to suppose".
Based on what?

Whilst I agree with your second point it has absolutely no relevance to my argument.
It does as you have repeatedly used ad hominem calling me dispicable as one example.

VCP (by my definition) has only one purpose - to sexually arouse people with a morbid interest in children, and
Just another way of saying that VCP is [simply] disgusting and no one should defend it. I confess I didn't use the qualifier "simply". I will cop to moving the goal posts on that one but it was my intent.

We know (we have compelling evidence!) that many people lose judgement when sexually aroused to the extent that they will risk just about any foreseeable consequences in return for satisfying their immediate sexual desire.
What does this have to do with VCP? You've been shown and you've admitted that there is no link between VCP and harm so this premise is pointless.
 
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OK - have it your way then. High ranking politicians make "choices" about how to behave when sexually aroused, and sometimes those "choices" suck - big time.

Very good.

You're not seriously suggesting that child molesters make "choices" about how to behave when sexually aroused, and those "choices" never suck - big time, are you?!

Now you're trying to get me on semantics.

What I am saying is that people who are aroused by children have a choice whether to act on it or not. Some choose to enjoy the fantasy (age play with another adult, watch VCP so no real children get hurt, or just use old fashioned imagination), while others choose to really molest and harm a child or watch porn with real children involved.

And the people with a child fetish who do the real thing ARE making a choice to do so, again because those people a) don't care about the consequences, b) don't think about the consequences, c) are looking forward to the consequences or d) a combination of or all three.

That is a choice.

There are plenty of people who age-play ONLY and never ever touch a real child. Are you calling those people child molesters?
 
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Notwithstanding that that's not my case, it's better than your case: "I'm entirely happy that children are being molested so long as Manga readers are happy too. Me and Manga readers - that's all that matters." Despicable.

So are you saying all Manga readers are child molesters?

Do you really, really, really want to make that assumption?
 
You really should check your whiny, pathetic comebacks. You're starting to sound like a spotty teenager who's been told he must be home by 9. Try to respond like a responsible adult, as tough as that might be for you.

And I'm sorry, SW. You sound like a teenager who can't keep it in his pants and using the excuse "Well, I watched porn????? It's the porn's fault!!! Not mine!!!"
 
Oh not that pathetic old chestnut again. Please tell me I'm imagining it! "It makes sense to me (because I wrote it :rolleyes:) therefore how can it possibly not make sense to eveybody else?" :rolleyes:
Your conceitedness, not to mention your mind-numbingly, boring repetitiveness precedes you.

SW, don't you see you are accusing RandFan of what you are doing, and you did it in the same post!!!

Here, let me show you:

Let's see:

Children are statistically likely to be harmed by VCP (there is a perceived threat).

Where is your evidence? So far, this is just your opinion. "It makes sense to me (because I wrote it :rolleyes:) therefore how can it possibly not make sense to eveybody else?"

VCP is disgusting and no one should defend it.

Again, this is just your opinion and you are ignoring any other reason VCP can exist - I've mentioned several, which you've conveniently dismissed. Again, you are saying "It makes sense to me (because I wrote it :rolleyes:) therefore how can it possibly not make sense to eveybody else?"

Our concern for children should be greater than any concern of loss of freedom for perverts.

What if YOUR type of porn is considered dangerous to children and you are lumped right in with those perverts? Don't think it wouldn't happen. Porn, in general, even "marshmallow porn" is considered dangerous to children by some people here and some people want even "marshmallow porn" banned because of that exact reason you state. In those people's eyes, you are a pervert as much as someone who has real child porn. Those people, as well as you, are saying "It makes sense to me (because I wrote it :rolleyes:) therefore how can it possibly not make sense to eveybody else?"

I never claimed anything based on statistics. The term I used was "reasonable to suppose".

No, you're right. You are not using statistics, you are basing your "evidence" on the limited group of people you know. See, waaaay back at the beginning of this thread you said that from the number of women you know, no "normal" woman would do porn. You are basing that on the statical data you have based on the women you know, otherwise you wouldn't call it "reasonable to suppose".

You continue to do the same thing with this opinion too.

You've also overlooked:

VCP (by my definition) has only one purpose - to sexually arouse people with a morbid interest in children,

You said "by my definition". Again, "It makes sense to me (because I wrote it :rolleyes:) therefore how can it possibly not make sense to eveybody else?"

and
We know (we have compelling evidence!) that many people lose judgement when sexually aroused to the extent that they will risk just about any foreseeable consequences in return for satisfying their immediate sexual desire.

Where is your "compelling evidence"? You just admitted to me that "High ranking politicians make "choices" about how to behave when sexually aroused, and sometimes those "choices" suck - big time." Earlier you asked me if I believed that said politicians are more special than any other person. I believe we are in agreement that they are not. So if we are in agreement, why are you contradicting yourself now? Sorry, this is not "compelling evidence". This is yet another case of "It makes sense to me (because I wrote it :rolleyes:) therefore how can it possibly not make sense to eveybody else?"

Now, there's something mildly entertaining about to start on TV far more deserving of my attention than you RandFan. I'm afraid you'll have to wait until at least tomorrow to continue your spat. I trust your Manga collection will keep you occupied.

And now you resort to high-horsed innuendo and insult. Sorry, SW, that kind of stuff isn't proving your point any.
 
Personal attack.
No it's not. It's an observational comment on your posts. They demonstrate conceit, and the childish "just because you say so doesn't make it true" retort has become mind-numbingly boring and repetitive. The sooner you swallow your pride and think about things objectively the better for eveybody here.

Yes you did. You didn't use the word "statistics" but you gave us number of people and then posited a ratio.
I think you're referring to my balance of probability analysis. Probability has absolutely nothing to do with statistics. The only arguable "statistic"(:rolleyes:) I used was the approximate male population of the planet. Big wow.

Based on what?
Oh, so you want to go right back to the beginning and start over do you? Please don't tell me we've been having a debate over something you know nothing about. Actually, that would explain a lot!

It does as you have repeatedly used ad hominem calling me dispicable as one example.
First, your second point has absolutely no relevance to ad homs.
Second, show me where I have specifically relied upon it to seek to strengthen my argument.

Just another way of saying that VCP is [simply] disgusting and no one should defend it.
I disagree. I consider that a statement that VCP is disgusting and no one should defend it is a logical conclusion (possibly one of many) following a claim that VCP (by my definition) has only one purpose - to sexually arouse people with a morbid interest in children.


What does this have to do with VCP?
Very simple, as before, but I'll repeat it for your benefit: VCP is targeted at people with a pathologically morbid sexual interest in children with the purpose of sexual arousal and serves to legitimize sexual abuse of children. Sexual arousal causes many people to seriously lose judgement to the extent that they will completely lose sight of or otherwise disregard the implications and possible consequences of their actions, whether by conscious decision or otherwise. Ergo it is reasonable to suppose, if not conclude, that VCP, in many cases, is the indirect cause of harm to some children. The highlighting is mainly for JFrankA's benefit, who seems to have a serious problem differentiating between partial and absolute quality and quantity.

You've been shown and you've admitted that there is no link between VCP and harm so this premise is pointless.
Wrong, and this is but one of the many wrong trees that you persist on barking up.
It's been claimed, and I've accepted, that no conclusive studies have been undertaken showing a causative link between VCP and child harm, just like no conclusive studies have been undertaken showing a causative link between sherbert dip and child harm. See the more-than-subtle difference?!
 
Now you're trying to get me on semantics.
I really can't understand what you mean by "get me", not to mention "semantics". Everything you write hereafter I am prepared to entirely agree with for the purpose of this debate:

What I am saying is that people who are aroused by children have a choice whether to act on it or not. Some choose to enjoy the fantasy (age play with another adult, watch VCP so no real children get hurt, or just use old fashioned imagination), while others choose to really molest and harm a child or watch porn with real children involved.
And the people with a child fetish who do the real thing ARE making a choice to do so, again because those people a) don't care about the consequences, b) don't think about the consequences, c) are looking forward to the consequences or d) a combination of or all three.
That is a choice.
There are plenty of people who age-play ONLY and never ever touch a real child. Are you calling those people child molesters?

So, to summarize the salient point by paraphrasing your words: Some people who are aroused by children choose to really molest and harm a child because they don't care and/or don't think about and/or look forward to(!) the consequences. [I've highlighted "some" to try to pre-empt you from reverting to the fallacious and flawed "but not everybody does!" position.

Now, all that's left to discuss, it seems, is the matter of the extent to which VCP causes or contributes to the sexual arousal of, and the apparent legitimization of child abuse to, child molesters. You would hardly disagree, I take it(!), that it would be advantageous to everybody concerned, including child molesters, to inhibit the legitimization message and sexual arousal of child molesters. I believe many serial rapists, if not child molesters, for example, willingly take medication to inhibit their sexual arousal.

So, JFrankA, would you like to go first?
 
So are you saying all Manga readers are child molesters?
Do you really, really, really want to make that assumption?
What assumption? Have you really, really, really stopped to consider whether what I wrote could logically lead you to believe that I've made an assumption to that effect?! Are are you just asking random, incidental, provocative questions to keep the debate alive?
 
<snip>

Very simple, as before, but I'll repeat it for your benefit: VCP is targeted at people with a pathologically morbid sexual interest in children with the purpose of sexual arousal and serves to legitimize sexual abuse of children.

<snip>

This is an assumption on your part. Something that you imagine or claim, in your fevered brain, to be VCP could be part of a larger body of art and not intended to arouse anyone.
 
This is an assumption on your part. Something that you imagine or claim, in your fevered brain, to be VCP could be part of a larger body of art and not intended to arouse anyone.


I don't think it is an assumption. His position seems to be that any unintentional collateral damage caused by ill-considered punitive legislation is of no concern in the face of any potential benefits, regardless of how unlikely those benefits are to materialize, or how certain such damage is to occur.

He's been pretty clear, even adamant on that point.

Unlike most of his other diatribes.

This may be explained by his rather curious understanding of probability and by extension the implications of his "cost/benefit analysis" which apparently isn't affected by pesky things like facts or statistics either.
 
RandFan...wouldn't it be equally reasonable to say that the only reason some might care about banning VCP is because they're concerned about free speech, meaning there is also an emotional component (the fear of losing it), and isn't that also generically called "fear"?


I see your reasoning, but I don't actually agree. I am concerned about banning VCP for reasons of free speech, but I don't fear losing that expression, because personally I have no desire to make VCP, thus banning it would never impact my free speech.

I am opposed to banning it on ideological grounds, because I believe free speech is a vital right, I believe it is easy to allow it to be carved back to almost free speech, and therefore I believe it is something that needs to be constantly protected.

In other words, I am not opposed to banning VCP due to fear, but on grounds of basic principle. Very different.
 
VCP is targeted at people with a pathologically morbid sexual interest in children with the purpose of sexual arousal and serves to legitimize sexual abuse of children.



I've just noticed you've used the word "morbid" to describe sexual interest in children multiple times.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.
 
We know (we have compelling evidence!) that many people lose judgement when sexually aroused to the extent that they will risk just about any foreseeable consequences in return for satisfying their immediate sexual desire.


Um, what? We know this? Since when?
 
  • Children are statistically likely to be harmed by VCP (there is a perceived threat).
  • VCP is disgusting and no one should defend it.
  • Our concern for children should be greater than any concern of loss of freedom for perverts.
It's not much of a case but ok.

Hear, hear. :clap:
 
I disagree. I consider that a statement that VCP is disgusting and no one should defend it is a logical conclusion (possibly one of many) following a claim that VCP (by my definition) has only one purpose - to sexually arouse people with a morbid interest in children.
A claim that you have thoroughly failed to back up with anything other than your own suppositions and logical fallacies.

Very simple, as before, but I'll repeat it for your benefit: VCP is targeted at people with a pathologically morbid sexual interest in children with the purpose of sexual arousal and serves to legitimize sexual abuse of children.
More claims with no evidence.

Sexual arousal causes many people to seriously lose judgement to the extent that they will completely lose sight of or otherwise disregard the implications and possible consequences of their actions, whether by conscious decision or otherwise.
And yet MORE claims with no evidence.

Ergo it is reasonable to suppose, if not conclude, that VCP, in many cases, is the indirect cause of harm to some children. The highlighting is mainly for JFrankA's benefit, who seems to have a serious problem differentiating between partial and absolute quality and quantity.
You have not provided any evidence that VCP is the indirect cause of harm in any cases, let alone many of them.

Wrong, and this is but one of the many wrong trees that you persist on barking up.
It's been claimed, and I've accepted, that no conclusive studies have been undertaken showing a causative link between VCP and child harm, just like no conclusive studies have been undertaken showing a causative link between sherbert dip and child harm. See the more-than-subtle difference?!
If you've accepted that there is no conclusive evidence, why do you keep acting as if there is some?
 

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