A 15 year old girl killed a nine year old girl to see what it was like.

[Cainkane1]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/19/alyssa-bustamante-slaying_n_364544.html

I was on a grand jury in 1989 concerning a very similar case. A 15 year old boy named Randy Dobbs skipped school one day and called in a pizza delivery. The twenty year old married mother of an infant baby came to the door and was shot to death through the window.

Ok we thought that the best interests of society would be served if this boy went on trial as an adult. Georgia doesn't allow the death penalty for a person under 17. He was tried and convicted and sentenced to life with a chance of parole but I've heard that his behaviour in prison is such that the possibility of parole has been removed.

Ok along comes this girl. She planned the murder. She had even dug the childs grave before the murder. The nine year old victim had done nothing to the 15 year old. The older girl killed her to see what it felt like.

What do you guys think should be done with people like this? The murderer is just a kid herself. Could she be rehabilitated?

 

[Darat]

...snip...

What do you guys think should be done with people like this? The murderer is just a kid herself. Could she be rehabilitated?

Well we know it is apparently possible for people who do the most terrible crimes to be rehabilitated so in principle yes she could be, but can she? How could we have an informed opinion on that?

 

[Sabrina]

It's not a question of can she; it's a question of will she allow herself to be rehabilitated?

IMO rehabilitation is only successful if the person is willing to have it work; if they're just going through the motions to appease others, it won't take. But how a 15-year-old could be that callous, that unfeeling... sounds to me like she's well on her way to becoming a serial killer, however rare female ones may be. So, while I'd hold out hope that she'd be willing to participate in her own rehabilitation, I find I have serious doubts about the likelihood of it.

 

[Darth Rotor]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/19/alyssa-bustamante-slaying_n_364544.html

I was on a grand jury in 1989 concerning a very similar case. A 15 year old boy named Randy Dobbs skipped school one day and called in a pizza delivery. The twenty year old married mother of an infant baby came to the door and was shot to death through the window.

Ok we thought that the best interests of society would be served if this boy went on trial as an adult. Georgia doesn't allow the death penalty for a person under 17. He was tried and convicted and sentenced to life with a chance of parole but I've heard that his behaviour in prison is such that the possibility of parole has been removed.

Ok along comes this girl. She planned the murder. She had even dug the childs grave before the murder. The nine year old victim had done nothing to the 15 year old. The older girl killed her to see what it felt like.

What do you guys think should be done with people like this? The murderer is just a kid herself. Could she be rehabilitated?

Just a kid. Nice excuse. The arbitrary distinction you (and some of our laws) make by using age is a fool's loophole. The "it's just a kid" defense hearkens back to the trope of extending childhood as long as possible, and with it innocence, and is a relatively recent invention. (In terms of human society).

It is not necessarily the better idea. I see no reason for this murderess (if the assertion is true, that this was premeditated, and all that) to keep breathing air. The arbitrary of excuse of age is in contradiction to part of what most societies are created for: rejection of the victimization of the weak.

 

[Sledge]

I don't really care if someone thinks she can be rehabilitated, the consquences if that person is wrong and she's released are too great to risk.

 

[Ryokan]

It's not a question of can she; it's a question of will she allow herself to be rehabilitated?

It's also a question of whether society will allow her to rehabilitate, or just throw her into the anarchy of an American prison.

An interesting sidenote, if this was in Norway, she'd be prosecuted at the fullest extent of the law. Norwegian law says that at 15 or above, you're held accountable for any crime you may do just like anyone else. If you're below 15, though, you're not held responsible for any crime at all.

 

[dtugg]

I don't really care if someone thinks she can be rehabilitated, the consquences if that person is wrong and she's released are too great to risk.

I agree. Much better to let her rot in prison for the rest of her life.

 

[Garrette]

It's also a question of whether society will allow her to rehabilitate,

For this, go back to Sabrina's comments.

or just throw her into the anarchy of an American prison.

While there is certainly much that can and perhaps should be done to improve America's prisons, it does not follow that rehabilitation is the optimum course. Everything has its cost, including rehabilitation. Because it has a cost, I can agree to rehabilitation in principle and disagree with it in practice.

Is there any cost to rehabilitation that you think is too great, or is rehabilitation always the answer?

 

[Garrette]

I agree. Much better to let her rot in prison for the rest of her life.

Or as my father has said on more than one occasion:

I'm for humane execution by electrocution -- turn the switch on slowly so he gets used to it...

 

[Ryokan]

While there is certainly much that can and perhaps should be done to improve America's prisons, it does not follow that rehabilitation is the optimum course. Everything has its cost, including rehabilitation. Because it has a cost, I can agree to rehabilitation in principle and disagree with it in practice.

Is there any cost to rehabilitation that you think is too great, or is rehabilitation always the answer?

Well, Norway has gone the exactly opposite route when it comes to justice, we have very low sentences (Maximum prison sentence is 21 years.) and focus greatly on rehabilitation over anything else.

Norway has one of the world's lowest crime and murder rates.

 

[Dragoonster]

What do you guys think should be done with people like this?

Go on trial. Get the death penalty if that's an option for the guidelines and the judge thinks she deserves it, and she's not insane.

The murderer is just a kid herself.

A sane 15-year old should understand right and wrong and pick "right" if they don't want their wrong actions to be punished if caught. I understood this, so did you, so do the vast majority of teens and younger kids. So too did she I'm guessing, she just didn't care if she got caught or hoped she didn't get caught.

Could she be rehabilitated?

Sure, anyone can be. It should be a completely separate issue from punishment (including sentencing) though. Every criminal should be rehabbed, and every prison safe, but these are considerations after punishment has been meted.

 

[dtugg]

Go on trial. Get the death penalty if that's an option for the guidelines and the judge thinks she deserves it, and she's not insane.

The Supreme Court has ruled that it is unconstitutional to impose the death penalty for crimes committed while under the age of 18.

 

[Garrette]

Well, Norway has gone the exactly opposite route when it comes to justice, we have very low sentences (Maximum prison sentence is 21 years.) and focus greatly on rehabilitation over anything else.

Norway has one of the world's lowest crime and murder rates.

I envy you that.

1. Which came first, low crime or high rehabilitation efforts?

2. What's your recidivism rate?

 

[paiute]

Well, Johnny Cash killed a man in Reno (Nevada) just to watch him die, then somehow ended up in Folsom State Prison (California). I never did figure that one out.

 

[Ryokan]

I envy you that.

1. Which came first, low crime or high rehabilitation efforts?

2. What's your recidivism rate?

For 1, there certainly was more crime before. I don't have the numbers in my head though, nor for 2. I'll have to do some research.

But also consider this; Since Norway has so short prison sentences, we know that every scum we put in prison will one day walk the streets again, and more often sooner than later. It's therefore in society's very best interest that when these people are shoved back into society they are productive and stable citizens. Most of the prison sentence is therefore dedicated to preparing them for that day, with people serving longer terms being gradually reintegrated into society, with open sentencing and even vacations away from prison.

Of course, there are some people who are deemed a high risk to society if they're let loose, and there are ways to keep them locked up (Called sikring in Norwegian, literally translated to security.). But it's rare.

 

[Cainkane1]

It's also a question of whether society will allow her to rehabilitate, or just throw her into the anarchy of an American prison.

An interesting sidenote, if this was in Norway, she'd be prosecuted at the fullest extent of the law. Norwegian law says that at 15 or above, you're held accountable for any crime you may do just like anyone else. If you're below 15, though, you're not held responsible for any crime at all.

With all due respect to the fine people in Norway that maximum punishment is too lenient. In a case like this girls premeditated murder I feel that she should never be released from prison. Your countrys policy of not holding a young person liable for their crimes no matter how odious is also too lenient.

You Norwegians are civilized and I appreciate that but one day some serial killer will be released from your prison and will kill more people when he or she gets out.

Lets say a 21 year old killed five innocent people for the fun of it. Ok whats to keep him from starting where he left off when he or she gets out?

Some crimes are so odious that the perpetrator should never be released.

 

[Dragoonster]

The Supreme Court has ruled that it is unconstitutional to impose the death penalty for crimes committed while under the age of 18.

I was answering what I think should happen, which is the age of the criminal doesn't come into play as far as maximum possible penalty, only the normal (adult) guidelines for that type of crime depending on jurisdiction. Sorry, should've made that more explicit.

 

[Careyp74]

I would think that if this girl hasn't figured out what right or wrong is by the time she is 15, she isn't going to figure it out. I am not talking about how it is wrong to hit people, or to steal, this is murder! Is there a possibility that this girl ISN'T a psychopath? What is the rehabilitation rate for those? Lock up the parents is what I say.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Since her youth could not prevent the capital crime she comitted (asserted to be purposeful and deliberate) I see no reason to use it as an excusing factor.

 

[Garrette]

For 1, there certainly was more crime before. I don't have the numbers in my head though,

As I don't have the time for an in-depth, fully evidenced-based debate, I'll take you at your word for now.

nor for 2. I'll have to do some research.

I'd be interested in this.

But also consider this; Since Norway has so short prison sentences, we know that every scum we put in prison will one day walk the streets again, and more often sooner than later. It's therefore in society's very best interest that when these people are shoved back into society they are productive and stable citizens.

That's quite an enlightened approach (seriously), but dependent on the actualities and not on the hopes.

Most of the prison sentence is therefore dedicated to preparing them for that day, with people serving longer terms being gradually reintegrated into society, with open sentencing and even vacations away from prison.

Again, I've no problem against it in principle.

Of course, there are some people who are deemed a high risk to society if they're let loose, and there are ways to keep them locked up (Called sikring in Norwegian, literally translated to security.). But it's rare.

How are they determined?


(My short time during which I can post is already exceeded, so forgive me if I don't respond more or much more.