• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Moderated What's wrong with porn?

Well, he asked "What's wrong with porn?"

And we have his answer: Anything that he sees as bad using "sound and logical reasoning and justification" is bad and should be banned. Of course, "marshmallow porn" is too tame and not worth talking about.

Further, women actresses do not deserve respect.

And anyone who defends the porn he doesn't like should be ignored and not worthy of his attention.

....I think we have his answer.... :D

ETA: Oh, and since Southwind17 is ignoring me, I can freely do this: *stands behind Southwind17, puts up two fingers over his head as if they are rabbit ears* :D


You left out that "sexual arousal" is bestial and subhuman, but beyond our merely human abilities to resist...

... and that anyone who disagrees with him proves that they are scum merely by that act of dissent.
 
Meaning anyone who disagrees with you on the “clear definition of child pornography” or is unwilling to support the impossible is a scum-bag.
No, not my definition - a democratically derived definition. I really don't see where the "scum bag" thing comes into this particular aspect of the debate. Is a "scum bag" similar to a "straw man", by any chance? It has the same number of letters, vowels and syllables!
 
Well, he asked "What's wrong with porn?"

And we have his answer: Anything that he sees as bad using "sound and logical reasoning and justification" is bad and should be banned. Of course, "marshmallow porn" is too tame and not worth talking about.

Further, women actresses do not deserve respect.

And anyone who defends the porn he doesn't like should be ignored and not worthy of his attention.

....I think we have his answer.... :D

ETA: Oh, and since Southwind17 is ignoring me, I can freely do this: *stands behind Southwind17, puts up two fingers over his head as if they are rabbit ears* :D

A pretty good summary. :)
 
Says the man who earlier introduced eating poop into the debate “just to make a point”
And you even highlighted my already highlighted "always", making your point even more absurd!

What parameters get applied to deterime if the faerie looks too human? Got an example?
I thought the issue was whether it looks like a child or not, not whether it looks "too human"!
 
You left out that "sexual arousal" is bestial and subhuman, but beyond our merely human abilities to resist...

... and that anyone who disagrees with him proves that they are scum merely by that act of dissent.

You're right. I knew I missed something! :)
 
Some people have a problem with distinguishing the difference between drawings/virtual and real.
And this comment just goes to demonstrate how completely off the mark you are regarding the nature, distinctions and subtleties of what, exactly, is the key subject of discussion here.
 
And this comment just goes to demonstrate how completely off the mark you are regarding the nature, distinctions and subtleties of what, exactly, is the key subject of discussion here.

"I don't have any evidence, I'm going by what I think is true and by my emotional judgments. You will not dissuade me from my stance no matter what logic and evidence you present, so I'm going to dismiss your point by stating that you don't understand what we are talking about."

....just come out and say it, SW, please. This is getting boring...
 
It might. Problem is no one has ever actually established a scientific link between them, and for me personally "maybe" is not strong enough to justify banning something.
But "maybe" is a strong enough basis for countless critical decisions that you make every day of your life? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure that's a very good comparison at all. In the chocolate bar case, it is the actual consumption of chocolate that the person loves - not watching others eat it.
That's beside the point.

In the case of various pornographic materials, I think there's a large group of people who enjoy watching certain things but would never actually want to do certain things. As such while watching said things satisfies their desires, actually doing it would not.
A good parallel can be seen with horror films. A large number of people take a real genuine delight in watching depictions of people being brutally murdered in creative and graphic ways. But they don't have the least desire to ever actually see it done for real. It's the experience of watching a fake depiction that they crave, and watching a horror film satisfies that.
I doubt that anybody here would disagree with this. Shame it's a straw man argument.

Of course, in any large and varied population as big as a whole country there will always be people who actually want to partake in these things for real - be it having sex with children or ripping someone's arms off.
Hey - we're on the same page here, to say the least!

Those people are called mentally ill and those acts are criminal.
That's correct. So what?

I feel pretty confident that these people are a tiny minority.
Certainly a minority. "Tiny"? Not so sure. Regardless, a large absolute number.

It doesn't make sense to ban fake depictions simply because some unwell people might want to do it for real ...
It does if the cost to society of such ban justifies the benefit. These so-called "Manga" readers - what sort of a "tiny minority" are you "pretty confident" they form, compared to child molesters?

... particularly since those unwell people do it for real anyway, regardless of what's available to watch.
Citation please, including details and statistics.

In fact, even if you could scientifically demonstrate very real cause and effect between a particular individual watching child porn and then molesting a child, I'd still be reluctant to ban it for the above explained reason.
WOW!!! Even if it was your child that was molested as a result, or if it had been you molested as a child as a result?

It's the same way that the makers of computer games like Need for Speed should not be held responsible for fans of their games that then drive dangerously and try outrun police in real life.
"Drive dangerously and try outrun [sic] police" vs child molestation? Let me ponder this one for a while ... :rolleyes:

At the end of the day, I'm a very firm believer in personal responsibility.
Even in relation to 2-year old kids, for example, it seems!

I'm guessing you've never worked with actors. I'm working on a show at the moment in which Craig Parker (a semi-famous local actor) plays the bad guy - an evil murderous tyrant. In one of his first scenes he slits an innocent's throat to use the blood as ink, and does it with utter mechanical detachment. And he's absolutely one of the kindest, most light-hearted people I know.
:confused:

That just has to be probably the most ill-considered post in this thread yet (but certainly not by a long shot!). Please tell me there's a nomination button for that somewhere!
 
Last edited:
One of the things I was taught in psychotherapy, is you can't change without becoming aware. Too many of the moral ideas that are applied to the subject of porn / sex are variations of: “thought-crime is death”. If we were taught instead not to be afraid of our own thoughts most of this porn debate would disappear.
Just a thought.
Indeed!
 
But "maybe" is a strong enough basis for countless critical decisions that you make every day of your life? :rolleyes:

"Maybe god exists - shouldn't you believe?" :rolleyes:

That's beside the point.

That IS the point.

I doubt that anybody here would disagree with this. Shame it's a straw man argument.

Do you actually know what a straw man argument is?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-straw-man-argument.htm

I swear, you are starting to sound like Fezzig from Princess Bride: "INCONCEIVABLE!" :D

It does if the cost to society of such ban justifies the benefit. These so-called "Manga" readers - what sort of a "tiny minority" are you "pretty confident" they form, compared to child molesters?

You do realize that Manga is world wide. That it may not be as "tiny minority" as you think. You should do some research.

Citation please, including details and statistics.

Where are yours? You've come out and admitted that you are going by "sound and logical reasoning and justification" without giving any citations, details and statistics. Put your money where your mouth is, 'cuz all you are doing is putting your foot where your mouth is.

WOW!!! Even if it was your child that was molested as a result, or if it had been you molested as a child as a result?

Appeal to emotion. Sheesh.

"Drive dangerously and try outrun [sic] police" vs child molestation? Let me ponder this one for a while ... :rolleyes:

Why not? You've compared murder vs child molestation.

Even in relation to 2-year old kids, for example, it seems!

More emotional appeal? Really? :rolleyes:

:confused:

That just has to be probably the most ill-considered post in this thread yet (but certainly not by a long shot!). Please tell me there's a nomination button for that somewhere!

Once again, you don't understand so it's time to insult the poster.
 
Last edited:
No. You need to explain what you mean by a "perceived" cost/benefit analysis and a "real" one. The adjectives bear no commonly accepted useful relationship with the term you applied them to. What difference were you trying to suggest between the two?
OK, so you haven't grasped it yet, but let's press on anyhow. Hopefully the penny will drop:
For the avoidance of doubt the "term" that I applied the words "perceived" and "real" to is "cost/benefit", not "analysis". A "perceived cost/benefit" analysis (in generic terms) is a study and critique, objective where reasonably possible but otherwise subjective, preferably quantifiable in terms of a common denominator to enable like-for-like comparison, of the probable and possible positive and negative effects of a proposed course of action to help inform a decision. A "real cost/benefit" analysis is exactly the same, except that the words "probable and possible" are replaced with "actual". The first relies more on supposition; the latter on facts, but neither is likely to be completely black and white. Starting to get the idea now?

Cost/benefit analysis requires data to analyze.
Not necessarily (see above).

If you don't have any such analysis let me help you. We've provided the links to the first steps you need in research about the actual, "real" cost of misused pornography laws. "Real" people with "real" damage done to them by zealots and political opportunists. Dollars and cents damage, as well as social, career, and family damage. There is lots more data where that came from.
"Misused pornography laws" is a red herring. We're debating the cost/benefit of banning VCP per se.

You have not provided any proof of any of the alleged "benefits" of such laws ...
"Proof" would be nice, but, unfortunately, it's somewhat idealistic given where we're currently at.
 
You left out that "sexual arousal" is bestial and subhuman, but beyond our merely human abilities to resist...
... and that anyone who disagrees with him proves that they are scum merely by that act of dissent.
If that's what you really believe then you haven't been paying due attention and are obstructing an otherwise healthy debate amongst adults (in the main). If not, then you're being disingenuous in the extreme, and should be ashamed of yourself. Either way, you're a discredit to this Forum and deserve to be expunged - shamefully.
 
If that's what you really believe then you haven't been paying due attention and are obstructing an otherwise healthy debate amongst adults (in the main). If not, then you're being disingenuous in the extreme, and should be ashamed of yourself. Either way, you're a discredit to this Forum and deserve to be expunged - shamefully.

*facepalm*

Dude, it's your own opinion and words he's giving back at you.
 
OK, so you haven't grasped it yet, but let's press on anyhow. Hopefully the penny will drop:
For the avoidance of doubt the "term" that I applied the words "perceived" and "real" to is "cost/benefit", not "analysis". A "perceived cost/benefit" analysis (in generic terms) is a study and critique, objective where reasonably possible but otherwise subjective, preferably quantifiable in terms of a common denominator to enable like-for-like comparison, of the probable and possible positive and negative effects of a proposed course of action to help inform a decision. A "real cost/benefit" analysis is exactly the same, except that the words "probable and possible" are replaced with "actual". The first relies more on supposition; the latter on facts, but neither is likely to be completely black and white. Starting to get the idea now?


So you admit that you were spouting gibberish.

Thank you. Your candor is refreshing.

Not necessarily (see above).
You're right. Gibberish doesn't require data to analyze.

"Misused pornography laws" is a red herring. We're debating the cost/benefit of banning VCP per se.
I don't think "red herring" means what you want it to mean. We're debating laws banning virtual pornography because the demonstrated costs of their misuse is not offset by any demonstrable benefit.

"Proof" would be nice, but, unfortunately, it's somewhat idealistic given where we're currently at.
Why?

Other people whose views don't happen to be coordinate with your own are able to provide examples, references and citations to support the positions they are defending

You consistently resort to "It's obvious. You must agree" or "Proof is unreasonable to expect" defenses with occasional digression into personal slurs, veiled or otherwise. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that you have no evidence to support your position, and that is why you resort to sophistry and obfuscation.

It's very admirable of you to finally admit that you are unable to provide any proof of your assertions.
 
I'm sure he'll be glad to explain in tedious, bewildering, and incomprehensible detail why it's somehow different when he says it.

(I wonder what it feels like to be "expunged". Is that a suitable topic for this venue? :D)

It seems like he "expunges" anyone who a) disagrees with him, and b) has made a point he cannot defend.

And I get the feeling he's put you on ignore too. He did it to me suddenly as will without much of a reason.

Soon, though he'll "expunge" enough of us that he'll end up just talking to himself! :D
 
If that's what you really believe then you haven't been paying due attention and are obstructing an otherwise healthy debate amongst adults (in the main). If not, then you're being disingenuous in the extreme, and should be ashamed of yourself. Either way, you're a discredit to this Forum and deserve to be expunged - shamefully.


If it's that bad for me to repeat, then how bad is it for you to say in the first place?


:hit:


:bricks:
 
From post# 1839
Southwind17 said:
Because, like child porn, [fantasy rape porn] portrays and serves to legitimize a most heinous of crimes. Why is it any different from watching movies generally portraying crimes, even heinous crimes? Well, the answer brings us to the necessary clarification. Simple - sexual arousal.And that leads us to reconsider the definition of porn per se. I wouldn't seek to make claim to a fool-proof definition, but for the time being, and the purposes of this debate, I believe part of one that I've previously used in the context of VCP takes us far enough:

Pornography: More or less sexual images intended to sexually arouse.

Put that in the context of rape portrayal and children and I see a reasonably clear line in the sand that puts the vast majority, if not all, of the innocuous material referred to in this thread clearly on the side of acceptability.

So you see, my criterion for wanting something like child porn and rape porn banned has absolutely nothing to do with my personal distaste, but everything to do with it linking illegal acts to sexual arousal, and not only linking, but, more importantly, serving as a catalyst for sexual arousal.

I'm sure most of us here are familiar with the concept of associative behaviour. If not, take a trip down to your local dog training school. Humans are no different. If we associate "Thing-A" with a pleasant experience we subconsciouly look favourably on Thing-A. If we associate Thing-B with an orgasmic (literally) experience we thrive on Thing-B. The very existence and procreation of mankind hinges on sexual arousal. That's why sexual arousal tends to transpose one into a noticeably different mindset - allowing us to think and do things that, in the cold light of day, and on reflection, can not only surprise and shock us, but ruin us, in just about every way possible.

What do you think is the main cause of infidelity, for example, if not the inability to control one's behaviour under the influence of sexual stimulation? Why do we sometimes critically accuse promiscuous men of "thinking with their penises", or even the otherwise model monogamous, fine upstanding family man after a one-off, unexplainable night of infidelity? There's more than a hint of truth in that cliched accusation, I believe. Moreover, what's the most common excuse for infidelity? "I don't know what I was thinking - it meant nothing - I love you, darling". Exactly - it meant nothing - because it had no meaning. It was purely impulsive and couldn't be checked. It causes great harm, certainly emotional and often physical, to otherwise loving ones - wives, husbands, partners, children, parents - but that's not considered at the time is it - in the heat of the moment. Out of sight out of mind.

I believe that our very human existence reflects an evolutionary trait for wanton procreation, no different from any other animal, and whilst humans might have evolved conscience and cognitive abilities, they somehow have a tendency to "disengage" when it comes to sexuality, to varying degrees.

Given the power of raw sexuality I see it as unmitigatingly improbable that associative behaviour linked to pornographic rape portrayal and child pornography (real or virtual) does not, and will continue to not, directly lead to rape and child abuse. Now, if it were to be conclusively shown that pornographic rape portrayal and/or child pornography leads to a net reduction in rape and child abuse respectively I would unflinchingly do a U-turn overnight. Being a firm believer that viewing violent and abusive genres of porn tends towards an insatiable hunger for an increasingly violent sexual "hit", however, I have no doubts that such behaviour will, in many, many cases, eventually spill over from masturbation to actual rape and abuse, and in many of those cases I have no doubt that the threshold is shockingly low.

Post# 1844 and again reposted by SW in post# 1892
Southwind17 said:
Of course, anybody involved in the production of rape portrayal porn will tend to defend any suggestion that they are anything other than a fine upstanding citizen with a worthy and respectful vocation. The truth, of course, is the exact opposite. As I wrote earlier, there's every type of person imaginable on the planet, whether it be those who dig, those with guns, worthless scum or otherwise.

Post# 1901
quadraginta said:
You left out (Southwind17 has said) that "sexual arousal" is bestial and subhuman, but beyond our merely human abilities to resist...
... and that anyone who disagrees with him proves that they are scum merely by that act of dissent.


Post# 1912
Southwind17 said:
If that's what you really believe then you haven't been paying due attention and are obstructing an otherwise healthy debate amongst adults (in the main). If not, then you're being disingenuous in the extreme, and should be ashamed of yourself. Either way, you're a discredit to this Forum and deserve to be expunged - shamefully.


SW, you are the one who said it orginally. Here is the evidence, something you feel you don't need to prove your point.

Does this mean you are going to expunge yourself considering that the Quadraginta merely repeated what you've said?
 
You didn't answer my question. I'll try again:

"If I draw Lisa Simpson having sex with a cucumber, where exactly is the "mentally immature, naive, vulnerable child" in this equation?"

Well? Do you actually have an answer?




No you don't understand what I am saying, because if you did you wouldn't ask "should obscenity laws apply?"

Here's the crux of my position in black and white for you:

Obscenity laws are unconstitutional and should not exist.

Got it?




No I didn't say there was nothing "wrong" with it. I said earlier that I find any sort of pornographic images involving children (even virtual) to be disgusting. I have a big problem with it. But I also have a big problem with religion. But I have a bigger problem with laws that run counter to free and open society. I don't have the right to prevent other people doing things simply because I don't like it. That's not how free society works.




A democratic society has a fundamental obligation to protect the rights and interests of the minority, otherwise it's nothing more than mob rule. Just because the majority of people don't like something doesn't justify banning it.


Gumboot, I'll answer this because you feel it hasn't adequately been answered. I realize that perhaps you haven't participated in the entire conversation and as such my earlier answers to this may have been missed.

Draw the cartoon. No, no one has been harmed (I do assume you are talking about Lisa Simpson the cartoon character, right? Not our administrator who is for some reason always to blame, lol)

Draw as many cartoons as you want. No one is telling you that you can't (or at least I am not, and I don't think the law is either, as it stands now).

It doesn't become pornography (a consumer product) until you distribute it, and at that point, you are injecting your thought and the product of that thought into the economy, society as a whole. And economy, by the way (child pornography) that brings in billions of dollars every year at the expense of children.

At *that* point, society, government has a right to intervene if it deems that there is something dangerous to our society in that content. It's like being fascinated with guns and wanting to collect them all, but our government places restrictions on that, the buying and selling of guns, because of the nature of the item. Or...weapons in general. The laws vary, but in many places, buying certain lengths of blades is illegal, or carrying certain lengths is illegal, even though shorter lengthed blades could potentially also cause harm. A limit is set. Do you feel sorry for gun owners who cannot purchases sawed off shotguns or fully automatic weapons? Or do you think there's no legitimate reason for them to have them? In other words, do *your* thoughts and government's opinions trump the thoughts of the few.

I don't know how to answer your question other than that. I have no problem with you sitting and drawing erotic cartoons if you want to. I don't even care if your friends see them. I might even enjoy them. But...when it comes to commerce, to distribution, of certain things, our government does have a right to intervene. And it does so because of not issues like pornography. There seems to be some massive disconnect going here simply because the subject matter is pornography. A disconnect, I use that term, because it seems that the same standards and feelings regarding free speech and expression and right to privacy doesn't exist when it comes to less popular notions such as guns, religious expression, illegal drugs, what have you. Do you consider it restricting freedom of thought if a male business owner only wants to hire men because he doesn't believe men and women should work together? I'm willing to guess that you do not, and you would call that discrimination. Laws against discrimination are what if not policing personal thought. We say "you can *think* what you want, but in our society, you must *act* or *do* this". Nobody gripes about that here do they?

Same principle. Same exact principle.
 

Back
Top Bottom