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Obama and the Gay Military...

But you are missing Bills point. What happens with the crap hits the fan and they all turn into rapists?

Did you think to ask that?


I'm curious about this previously undiscovered link between warfare and sex. It would appear that other stressful or intense situations don't trigger the same overwhelming sexual drive that soldiers are subject to. What is it, then, about combat that produces this unique response? I think this is a particular subject that could do with some extensive scientific research.
 
I'm curious about this previously undiscovered link between warfare and sex. It would appear that other stressful or intense situations don't trigger the same overwhelming sexual drive that soldiers are subject to. What is it, then, about combat that produces this unique response? I think this is a particular subject that could do with some extensive scientific research.

European medieval warfare did have a tendency for rape, murder and plunder.
But the victims was (enemy)civilians, not ones squad mates.

If you look at current African warfare as conducted by militias it does look like rape is an inherent property of war. I still don't see why it would cause any problems within a unit, if the strait militiamen are busy with the girls of a village, what stops the gay ones from grabbing the boys?
 
European medieval warfare did have a tendency for rape, murder and plunder.
But the victims was (enemy)civilians, not ones squad mates.

If you look at current African warfare as conducted by militias it does look like rape is an inherent property of war. I still don't see why it would cause any problems within a unit, if the strait militiamen are busy with the girls of a village, what stops the gay ones from grabbing the boys?

But as the saying goes, rape is more about power than it is about sex. This phenomenon to me seems to be a prime example of that. Because we are dealing with undisciplined militias or mercenaries, the rape seems to be as much about asserting dominance over and instilling fear in the populace than it is about sexual gratification.
 
If an officer ran off to vegas and married an enlisted person in Vegas. The military would make sure they kept seperated during the court marshal proceedings.

You know very little about the military. There is no regulation against an officer marrying an enlisted person. It's the fraternization that's against regulations, not the marriage.

In cases where there is fraternization, a court martial is not always the punishment. Military justice often acts on an ad hoc basis.
 
You know very little about the military. There is no regulation against an officer marrying an enlisted person. It's the fraternization that's against regulations, not the marriage.

In cases where there is fraternization, a court martial is not always the punishment. Military justice often acts on an ad hoc basis.

As my freind in the Air Force pointed out. They have rules against adultery, but are generally not enforced unless the adultery provokes other problems with the unit.

The examples he gave were two airmen getting into a fistfight on base becasue one slept with the other's wife and the drunken civilian husband of the woman who had an affair with an airmen trying to break into the base to get at the guy.

In short the attitude regarding hetero sex is basically that the soldiers sex life is thier own business until something goes wrong and it intrudes on the functioning of the unit. This is reasonable.

Bill's attitude towards gay sex basically appears to be that it has the potential to intrude on the functioning of the unit so it should be banned to prevent the possibility of this happening. This is not so reasonable.
 
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But you are missing Bills point. What happens with the crap hits the fan and they all turn into rapists?

Did you think to ask that?


I have been wondering why this only affects USA military folk, I really do think the USA military needs to look at its enlistment policies and perhaps stop recruiting all these rapists?
 
You are overlooking or choosing to ignore some very simple facts and fundamental differences
between the American culture and the cultures of other countries. There are a lot of religious
that, let's face it, have some pretty strange views regarding homosexuality in the United States.
Both Mormons and Scientologist believe that they can "cure" homosexuality or at least
provide a structure where their "behavior" can be "corrected".

I used to think that Scientology was small and petty and only a few crazed celebrities
belonged to the cult. I found out the hard way that they are huge and powerful. They are
enormous. Like the Catholics, they have their own private schools that they send their young.
I digress.

There are also larger and even more absurd, yet formative, religions in the United States
that have more bullying approaches regarding homosexuals like the Evangelists, the southern Baptists,
and the biblical fundamentalists.

Taking all things into consideration, I think DADT is going to stay with us for a long time.

Just because it is my view, does not mean that I like it. I have had to endure a lot of bull
crap in this discussion thread from people who like to label people without knowing the
subject. I am not homophobic. That is a crazy comment. Labeling someone homophobic because
he does not believe that DADT will change is like labeling someone "gay" because
he thinks DADT will be struck down. I never thought that people who are against
DADT were gay (except for one guy sending me IM's).

Something else is this. It is not just like allowing women in the military. There are no
religious groups I can think of that are violently against the very existance of women.
 
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But you are missing Bills point. What happens with the crap hits the fan and they all turn into rapists?

Did you think to ask that?

How many reasons did I list to support my view? Twenty? Attacking what is probably the easiest misunderstood in that list does not make your argument any better or logical.
 
Nice job of completely missing the point.

I was pointing out what happens to somebody who is in the closet. This is contrary to your claim that

Forcing gay service members into the closet is asking a lot.

First of all, noone is forcing them into service.

Second of all, I insist much more stress and much more was asked of me in the service.

Thirdly, as this post shows http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5334317&postcount=567 , it is probably for their benefit anyway.
 
Bill, why haven't all these problems you worry about happened in the armed forces of nations that do permit homosexuals to serve and be open about their sexuality?
 
First of all, noone is forcing them into service.
And if we abolosihed DADT nobody who was uncomftorble serving with gays would be forced to serve, so this is a non-argument

Second of all, I insist much more stress and much more was asked of me in the service.
I agree, but don't you agree that it is both wrong and potentially very dangerous to add the additional stress of forcing somebody into the closet in addition to the stress you endured in the military. That was my main point, not that this stress is in place of what everybody else in the military endures, but in addition to it.

Thirdly, as this post shows http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5334317&postcount=567 , it is probably for their benefit anyway.
I'm sorry, are you seriously arguing that because other service members are bigots then it is in the best interest of the objects of the bigotry for the armed services to reinforce that bigotry with policy preventing them from serving openly?
By this argument, we should not allow muslims to serve openly as muslim in the military because most of the religions that you referenced are also bigoted against muslims.
Would you support regulations stating that service members are not allowed to mention that they follow Islam becasue it is for thier own benefit? How about making it ok to talk about Jesus, but if you mention Allah or Mohammed, you are discharged because we know how bigoted many Christians are and this is for thier own benefit?

I am sorry, but enabling bigotry never benefits anybody, especially the victims of the bigotry.
 
I'd prefer to serve in a battalion almost entirely composed of gay soldiers than serve on the same post as a single closet Jihadist.

And I'm pretty sure most people in the military would agree with me.
 
But as the saying goes, rape is more about power than it is about sex. This phenomenon to me seems to be a prime example of that. Because we are dealing with undisciplined militias or mercenaries, the rape seems to be as much about asserting dominance over and instilling fear in the populace than it is about sexual gratification.

My point was that even in a medieval "army" any rape, murder and plunder were directed outwards, not toward members of ones own unit.

I am really worried about the unit Bill served in.
 
I'd prefer to serve in a battalion almost entirely composed of gay soldiers than serve on the same post as a single closet Jihadist.

And I'm pretty sure most people in the military would agree with me.

You have obviously not considered the problems arising in the showers.
How would you find room for that many beauty boxes?
 
My point was that even in a medieval "army" any rape, murder and plunder were directed outwards, not toward members of ones own unit.

I am really worried about the unit Bill served in.



The 145th Soap and Shower Detachment (Amphibious) sounds like a fun assignment, on the surface at least.
 
Just because it is my view, does not mean that I like it. I have had to endure a lot of bull
crap in this discussion thread from people who like to label people without knowing the
subject. I am not homophobic. That is a crazy comment. Labeling someone homophobic because
he does not believe that DADT will change is like labeling someone "gay" because
he thinks DADT will be struck down. I never thought that people who are against
DADT were gay (except for one guy sending me IM's).

Bill, nobody is labelling you as homophobic just because you are opposed to DADT. However, a number of your arguments in defense of your position, including the non-quoted parts of the post this quote is from do suggest a bias against homosexuals, ie homophobia.

The argument that bigoted policies are OK because they protect a minority group from other bigoted members does suggest a bias against that minority by the arguer, but one that the person may not want to admit to. As you have made that exact argument supporting an anti-gay policy, I would say that you are probably anti-gay yourself but don't want to admit it, even to yourself.
 
How many reasons did I list to support my view? Twenty? Attacking what is probably the easiest misunderstood in that list does not make your argument any better or logical.

You have been clear that the military is full of bigoted rapists. Why this wasn't an issue for Truman is not at all clear though.
 
Just answer my questions, Bill.
In a civilian job:
"I have a boyfriend": does not provide too much information.
"I am attracted to men": provides too much information.

Have I got that right?
Here are two hypothetical situations:

1) A man has been ordered to leave his home and the people who love him. He has been deployed, ordered to spend months in a city among people who hate him. He is in the U.S. Army. There is no way for him to know who is an enemy and who is a civilian until it could be too late; he knows this. His intense distrust edges over to abject terror every time his mind unavoidably conjures up another obvious “what if”. During a time of awaiting the next orders, which he fears could be his last, he begins to record a message for his girlfriend and young children.

Would you have tried to tell him to "shut up" before he said the word "girlfriend"? Would you want him to be fired if he said it because it is wildly inappropriate to imply sexual orientation in the U.S. military?


2) A woman fights for her country, on a dangerous landscape far from home. She is in the U.S. Army. As time goes on and the opposition forces mount, she becomes increasingly aware of her clearly escalating risk of death. She already received news of the deaths of some of her friends. Learned helplessness starts to set in. She begins to say, in a flash of overwhelmingly powerful terror, that she misses her wife and their children.

Would you have tried to tell her to "shut up" before she says the word "wife"? Would you want her to be fired if she said it, because it is wildly inappropriate to imply sexual orientation in the U.S. military?


Yes, they are emotionally loaded hypothetical stories. To ignore the emotional aspect of humanity when you think about this topic is to reduce your understanding of it.
 
You are overlooking or choosing to ignore some very simple facts and fundamental differences
between the American culture and the cultures of other countries.

...snip...

I think you meant to say "You are overlooking or choosing to ignore my opinion that USA military forces are untrainable and will commit rape whenever they are stressed..."
 
You are overlooking or choosing to ignore some very simple facts and fundamental differences
between the American culture and the cultures of other countries. There are a lot of religious
that, let's face it, have some pretty strange views regarding homosexuality in the United States.
Both Mormons and Scientologist believe that they can "cure" homosexuality or at least
provide a structure where their "behavior" can be "corrected".
...

You are dissembling. Those may well be reasons why DADT isn't going away now. Those are not the reasons you gave for why DADT shouldn't go away.
 

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