Obama and the Gay Military...

[Sledge]

Did Bill claim to have been in the military? I'd go back through his posts, but I honestly can't bring myself to go through that bile again.

 

[Toke]

Did Bill claim to have been in the military? I'd go back through his posts, but I honestly can't bring myself to go through that bile again.

I think so, it must have been a poorly trained part of it.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Yes and No. It was a compromise between President Clinton, who wanted to end the military ban on gays and a republican congress that did not.

While it was an improvement from an outright ban that allowed superiors to out closeted gays and boot them, it still does not allow gays to serve openly in the military. It also had a slew of unintended consequences, that in some situations made it more precarious for military gays.

Also the removal of loyal, patriotic soldiers from the military, whose only breach of the rules was to be open about thier homosexual relationships deprives the military of the valuable services they provide and often the expenses spent to train the soldiers.

As such, the comprimise has shown not to live up its intentions and should be repealed in favor of allowing gays to openly serve in the military.

[Personal Anecdote]
One, of many, unintended consequences is that members who are not homosexual but do not appear "manly" (read "redneck"/"Joe Sixpack") enough are often pressured to leave the military.

A good friend of mine, dedicated to serving in the military (wanted a 20+ year career) was a very hard working airman - as I recall, he made SrA BTZ (6 months early promotion, limited to 10% of those eligible in the quarter...it's a big deal). Shortly after I transferred to a different base, he was transferred to a base in Germany where his supervisors believed him to be a homosexual based on nothing more than his behavior, ending up with his file being flagged and him losing the option to reenlist.

Why? Simply because his supervisors thought he was homosexual. This is the intolerant attitude the military breeds with the Don't Ask/Don't Tell policy - it is, in essence, a permission to discriminate against those whom are perceived to be different - in this case, homosexual.

An outstanding Airman was lost to the service because some rednecks were unable to deal with fears about their own sexuality.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I guess your workplace would also ban the wearing of wedding rings and having photographs on one's desk. You would also have to ban the carrying of wedding photographs in one's wallet or pursue. Those photos might be accidentally seen by a co-worker when opening said wallet or purse.

Dude (or dude-ette), you keep jumping around the subject matter. What exactly are we talking about? My office currently or the Military? It is Apples and Oranges.

Weding Rings. So what. Next.

Photographs on ones desk. Tasteful photographs can be of brothers, sisters, family. Noone cares. Gay weding photos? Depends. Are we talking about the military where they bent over backwards accepting don't ask /Don't tell and you are too stuipid not to have them there or are we talking about my work place. Well, at work we have lots of gay guys but they never talk about it and I think if they did have a weding photo noone would think twice. But they noone has to share a crowded shower with these guys either.

Gay weding photo in the purse. God, you are grasping at straws. You are so much so that your point is lost. Do you think gays in the miltiary tote around weding photos of their lovers? And, no, I did not carry around photos of my girlfriend in the military. Nor did I know of anyone who had them on their desk. It just isn't that kind of job. Either you know what it is like or you don't.

And, by the way, if you have not been in the military, you really don't and cannot know what you are talking about.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Yea, just like you would at work right? Personal lives are to be left at home. The army has no need of things like survivor benefits and things like such as that, it pointlessly injects their personal lives into their work.

The military is not just a job.

Where do you get the idea it is?

 

[Bill Thompson]

I think so, it must have been a poorly trained part of it.

Must have been in Denmark, Captain Ad Hominin.

Give me an example of a poorly trained part of the military.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I don't think you actually understand what the policy is. It's not about giving someone the right to know your sexual preference. It's about taking away the right for an individual to share their sexual preference if they wish.

Wow, where do you work? Forget the miltiary for a second. In my office, sharing your sexual preference "f you wish"will get you fired or at least in trouble. Saying "yeah, I prefer guys, sexually" or "yeah, I prefer women, sexually" will get you shot over to admin like a bullet.

It doesn't belong in the office. Noone needs to hear that crap. It does not belong in the workplace.

So it sure as hell does not belong in the military.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Consider someone saying this:

If you worked for a company where most everyone was a hemophiliac, you can expect that company to disallow the display and use of sharp object. Sure hemophilia is unnatural, but other people need to make compromises so that they can do their job.

It is the same thing with straight people. Sure being straight is unnatural. SOme of them feel a little icky around photos of men kissing. But is that really so bad? I mean people like us feel icky watching breaders make out too.

So the way that some straight poeple might feel is understandable.

 

[Fishstick]

Wow, where do you work? Forget the miltiary for a second. In my office, sharing your sexual preference "f you wish"will get you fired or at least in trouble. Saying "yeah, I prefer guys, sexually" or "yeah, I prefer women, sexually" will get you shot over to admin like a bullet.

It doesn't belong in the office. Noone needs to hear that crap. It does not belong in the workplace.

So it sure as hell does not belong in the military.

Sounds like you work in a pretty oppressive office if casual talk about your spouse (male or female) isn't allowed! Thankfully not all jobs are as ass-backwards.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Sounds like you work in a pretty oppressive office if casual talk about your spouse (male or female) isn't allowed! Thankfully not all jobs are as ass-backwards.

I did not say that.

Why are you resorting to claiming I have said things I did not say?

"casual talk about your spouse"? Oh yeah, sure . Do you really think that I am claiming that people get fired at an office for causal talk about your spouse?

 

[Sledge]

Uh, yeah. That's exactly what you were claiming.

 

[gumboot]

Hi Bill, I just wanted to point out a perplexed question you asked, and with it juxtapose the answer to that question, which you yourself gave in the same post.

The question:

Why do liberals and progressives protest unfairness?

And the answer:

So unless you completely turn the tide and attitudes of the majority of Americans, we are stuck with the way things are.

The reason progressives protest inequality and injustice is for the very purpose of changing the attitudes of society so that it can progress and become more equal and more just.

That's pretty basic.

Society did not spontaneously wake up one morning and go "Hey, we should treat women the same as men". It is through generations of protest and complaint by progressives that equality is gradually, grudgingly achieved.

People like myself don't expect society to wake up tomorrow and suddenly decide sexuality is nothing more than one of a myriad of distinguishing characteristics. But what we do expect is that if we face bigotry, and protest against it, and drag it kicking and screaming into the light, piece by piece the wall will fall down, and one day our children, or our grandchildren, or their grandchildren will grow up in a society that doesn't care what your sexuality is.

And the old rear guard of "how things used to be" can battle on all they want but people like myself can live with the confidence and assurance that the progression of western society has immense momentum, and slow as it is, you cannot stop it.

 

[Toke]

Must have been in Denmark, Captain Ad Hominin.

Give me an example of a poorly trained part of the military.

You were the one worrying about rape within a squad, so where ever you were must have been poorly trained.

 

[Alan]

Forget the miltiary for a second. In my office, sharing your sexual preference "f you wish"will get you fired or at least in trouble. Saying "yeah, I prefer guys, sexually" or "yeah, I prefer women, sexually" will get you shot over to admin like a bullet.

It doesn't belong in the office. Noone needs to hear that crap. It does not belong in the workplace.

A typical lunch break conversation: "So, what did you do on the weekend?"
A straight woman might say that she went for a drive with her boyfriend. Is that awful and improper? Would that justify a firing? I see you say that you don't, in at least one post.

But you also show, at other points, that you do think that this kind of thing should get someone fired (because you support DADT).

Please make up your mind.

 

[gumboot]

Wow, where do you work?

Right now? With the Walt Disney Company. Why?

In my office, sharing your sexual preference "f you wish"will get you fired or at least in trouble. Saying "yeah, I prefer guys, sexually" or "yeah, I prefer women, sexually" will get you shot over to admin like a bullet.

Thankfully in my country we have laws that prevent employers doing crap like that. Were I living in the USA (where I gather your employer can practically fire you on a whim), they wouldn't need to fire me because I would never, ever want to work for such a repressive and unreasonable company.

It doesn't belong in the office. Noone needs to hear that crap. It does not belong in the workplace.

I hear conversations of a sexual nature on a daily basis at work. It's healthy, normal, and contributes to a lively and trusting work environment. Informal bonding in the workplace creates camaraderie, which improves performance. It's particularly valuable in work environments where teamwork is critical to success, such as the film industry (which I work in) and the military.

I've never served in the military myself, but I grew up surrounded by it, and I can assure you that such informal bonding was commonplace. One of the bases had a yearly sports day when the various units built their own "chariots" and then raced them. One particular year a team constructed a giant penis as their chariot, which sprayed out white foam (I think it might have been the Fire Flight). Everyone thought it was hilarious.

This sort of bonding didn't cause any problems for anyone, and it certainly didn't impede the performance of the personnel.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

I <3 Special Pleading.

 

[Alan]

I <3 Special Pleading.

Oh my! Don't tell anyone at work that.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Did Bill claim to have been in the military? I'd go back through his posts, but I honestly can't bring myself to go through that bile again.

It does not suprise me that you protest what I have written without having read what I have written.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Hi Bill, I just wanted to point out a perplexed question you asked, and with it juxtapose the answer to that question, which you yourself gave in the same post.

The question:



And the answer:



The reason progressives protest inequality and injustice is for the very purpose of changing the attitudes of society so that it can progress and become more equal and more just.

That's pretty basic.

Society did not spontaneously wake up one morning and go "Hey, we should treat women the same as men". It is through generations of protest and complaint by progressives that equality is gradually, grudgingly achieved.

People like myself don't expect society to wake up tomorrow and suddenly decide sexuality is nothing more than one of a myriad of distinguishing characteristics. But what we do expect is that if we face bigotry, and protest against it, and drag it kicking and screaming into the light, piece by piece the wall will fall down, and one day our children, or our grandchildren, or their grandchildren will grow up in a society that doesn't care what your sexuality is.

And the old rear guard of "how things used to be" can battle on all they want but people like myself can live with the confidence and assurance that the progression of western society has immense momentum, and slow as it is, you cannot stop it.

But we are talking about the military. We are not talking about injustice in society. In a perfect world, as I have stated already several times, there would not be a military at all.

 

[Bill Thompson]

A typical lunch break conversation: "So, what did you do on the weekend?"
A straight woman might say that she went for a drive with her boyfriend. Is that awful and improper? Would that justify a firing? I see you say that you don't, in at least one post.

But you also show, at other points, that you do think that this kind of thing should get someone fired (because you support DADT).

Please make up your mind.

I have. It is you who are confused.

You mix what I say about my current civilian job with military policy. They are very different.

You keep switching from civlian world and the military world.

In the civilian world, you can quit a job.

You cannot really quit the military.

In the civilian world, you do no feel like the company owns you. That is absurd.

The military really does own you if you are in the military.

I was just now thinking that asking someone to keep photos of thier loved ones away from their job is less than on percent of the demands that were asked of me in the military.

It is not a big sacrifice to "not tell" about your personal life if you are gay and in the military.

The military has the legal right to tell straight people who they can and cannot sleep with. Telling gay people to be quiet about it is not asking too much by comparison.

The people to are arguig this either do not know what iit is like in the military or they are equating it to having women serve in the military.