UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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I present the evidence that I consider good enough to support my assertions.
You obviously have an opinion as to the quality of that evidence.
I contend it is good evidence that supports my case.
You may claim the evidence is worthless – but merely making that claim does not make it so.
You may even ignore the evidence I present – which you obviously do - but doing so does not mean that the evidence I present somehow magically disappears.
You are of course entitled to attempt to refute any evidence I present.

Rramjet, why do you refuse to answer the question about the military observers being in error over Campeche and how the fact that trained observers can be mistaken has implications for your Iranian case?

Or is your contention that pilots cannot be mistaken and you are going to debunk the oilwell fire explanation?
 
Sorry, small point of order, but the Box Office magazine's only reference to a blimp shows it being in Bremerton, Washington, and doesn't give an actual date that the blimp was there (the magazine was published on June 18).

It does, however, prove that a Goodyear blimp was in operation on the West coast at the time of the sighting. So, that's a definite "no" to the impossibility of a blimp being responsible.
 
I present the evidence that I consider good enough to support my assertions.
You obviously have an opinion as to the quality of that evidence.
I contend it is good evidence that supports my case.
You may claim the evidence is worthless – but merely making that claim does not make it so.
You may even ignore the evidence I present – which you obviously do - but doing so does not mean that the evidence I present somehow magically disappears.
You are of course entitled to attempt to refute any evidence I present.
No, that's no good. Are the links you supplied for what you consider to be hard evidence of aliens? Yes or no. I have no desire to sit through another prolonged bout of debunking only to see you fall back again on "the evidence isn't convincing, but the amount of unconvincing evidence is convincing."
 
I present the evidence that I consider good enough to support my assertions.


Given that you've achieved a 100% failure rate in your attempt, it's difficult to understand how you can consider it "good enough". Well, unless I was correct in suggesting that your objective isn't so much to support your claim, but to simply talk crap about UFOs and aliens. In that case, all your blathering does seem to be suiting your purpose.

You obviously have an opinion as to the quality of that evidence.


Maybe it's more of a definition thing. You seem to believe your arguments from incredulity and ignorance constitute evidence. Your ignorance and incredulity may be the foundation of your opinion, but in real science they are simply not evidence.

I contend it is good evidence that supports my case.


And I'll remind you again that your idea of "good enough" must be quite different that most people's, because what you mistakenly believe to be evidence has failed 100% to convince anyone that you're supporting your claim.

You may claim the evidence is worthless -- but merely making that claim does not make it so.


The fact that it isn't actually evidence makes it worthless as evidence.

You may even ignore the evidence I present -- which you obviously do - but doing so does not mean that the evidence I present somehow magically disappears.


You haven't made any evidence appear, magically or otherwise. Nothing you've offered so far supports your claim that aliens exist.

You are of course entitled to attempt to refute any evidence I present.


Your opinions based on your ignorance and incredulity aren't evidence.

So the question still stands (although I think the answer has been crystal clear for a long time to all the rational folks here). Yes or no, do you have any actual objective evidence to support your claim that aliens exist?
 
Regarding Henry:

According to Maccabee, "Jets taking off at full speed at night and “with afterburner” were a rarity, [Henry] said.

Maybe Henry's right: Have we considered that perhaps the rarity was the "at night" part? It may well be that full power takeoffs with afterburners were absolutely the norm, but they just didn't normally do so at half past one in the morning. :)


Another item in the document that similarly lends itself to a trivial explanation is the tale of the locals who, when quizzed the next day, reported a loud noise and a very bright light on the night before. Mightn't their noisy phantom have been... a Phantom?

I can honestly say I'm no pilot, but as a kid I loved to watch the Phantoms flying out of Leuchars during summer holidays in the 70's, and so I can report from personal experience that they do in fact make a loud noise.:D Afterburners also make a bright light. Daylight visible, in fact; so it must be very impressive at night, I have no doubt.
 
There has been a lot of discussion on the rearward sensing antenna and the mirrors

The rear radar receiver. The term being bandied about here is RWR, so maybe the name has been changed. I knew it as RHAW (Radar Homing And Warning) so I’ll use this term. First everyone seems to have a slight misunderstanding of the device. It is not just to the rear, it is an omnidirectional system. It is not a radar, it is a receiver, nothing goes out (think of it as a more complicated version of an auto radar detector, the auto detectors actually derived from this technology,) The four antennas are placed on each side of the nose and each side of the tail area.

<polite snip of descriptive details>

The mirrors. The F-4 has always had mirrors for both the front and rear seats.<polite snip of mirror details>
The conversation has moved on Puddle Duck.

You initially claimed total radar blindness for the F-4 to the rear. I merely pointed out that there was an RWR system on board (and yes it is a receiver only but STILL, its existence refuted your initial contention that the F-4 was totally blind in the rear (PLUS I noted there were mirrors available to the pilot(s)).

Finally, the use of these devices, I have shown above, is not necessary for the pilot to have provided the range data he did. Given the circumstances and the information available, such range estimates are possible.

I understand you not mentioning the RWR because you thought it irrelevant, but it became relevant because of your implication of complete rearward blindness. I merely showed this to be incorrect (with RWR and mirrors) and that was a point unto itself.

Ramjet, since you do not believe that I flew F-4s (there is no way that I can prove that I am who I say I am-After all, I could be a dog at the terminal), and that having tanks on air-to-air alert aircraft is standard, here is a task for you. I hear that in the Google, you are strong. Get a list of Air National Guard bases, find out which ones flew F-4s, get into contact with the unit historian, find out if they sat air intercept alert, if so, ask him if their alert birds always carried drop tanks. Report back. I am not trying to be facetious.
If you DID fly F-4s, then why do you advise a pilot in the pitch dark, without avionics or communications (internal and external) to “invert” his plane. That would be to positively invite disorientation and disaster.

Look, I understand where you are coming from, but I am merely showing that there is a double standard here. The members of this forum mercilessly question, ridicule (to the point of abuse) the credentials of ANYONE who has an opinion opposite to their own – yet when someone like yourself comes to the thread, who seems to support their opinions, suddenly there is NO question about your credentials. I was merely pointing out there WERE grounds to allow such a questioning (such as the advice to “invert” the jet)

More, you are making an unfounded assertion based on a single example that the Iranian F-4s had the "drop tanks" on. You cannot know this. You also have provided no data concerning what the top seed IS WITH the tanks on.

Rramjet keeps insisting that I should have used all the available documentation to give my thoughts on the event. This I believe, will be the fourth time that I stated that the only document that I had when I wrote was the Maccabee article
Initially you may have had access to a single “source” document. But since then you have been advised there are a NUMBER of other official and eyewitness testimony documents available – the “routing slip” being just one of a number of them.

This is somewhat analogous to stating that Scott should have not continued to the South Pole because: Amundsen was probably ahead of him, and since he was probably ahead of him, he was ahead of him, and since he was ahead of him, he was going to beat him to the Pole, so he, Scott, should have not tried. It would have saved Scott some grief though, if he had paid attention.

Thenceforth I’ll use the routing slip as gospel, and anything else as filler. If I find something else, I will include it as filler.
Analogy incorrect. We HAVE available the logs of BOTH Scott and Amundsen to provide us information. But YOU want to use ONLY Scotts?

Let us look at the statements made by Henry.

First Henry and pal were Radar engineers, not avionics. And of course the jets took of with A/B.
Henry was an employee of the Westinghouse Corp. and he was in Iran to help maintain the avionics, including radar, in the F-4 Phantom jets that the Iranians had bought several years earlier. (http://www.brumac.8k.com/IranJetCase/)

All right children (and Rramjet), I was finally able to get a couple of charts posted here.

<polite sip of descriptive because the charts not working>

Would mil power takeoffs be the norm here?

h ttp://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=312&pictureid=1900;
h ttp://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=312&pictureid=1899b

Since I can’t post links yet delete the spaces after the first h.

Regarding charts …sorry but the links don’t work so I cannot follow the calculations… AND you make one HUGE assumption … 40C?

Henry stated the takeoff with “A/B” was rare… you have not yet shown that this to be incorrect.
 
Belgian thought: Just because they looked like men, does not mean they were men.

What like some of the women in Thailand?

But as Belz. Rightly pointed = You really mean "I will believe whatever the hell I want, thank you very much!"

Artists renditions? Come on, you have to do better than that!
– You can’t, have you seen the visual evidence for this case remotely as good as this fine piece of work? :eye-poppi

The times you provide matched with the sighting times mean the UFO WAS intitially seen in daylight (especially on the second “night”!


Wrong again – see below - note on both occasions, Venus and alignment of other planets at the same time, namely Mars, Uranus and Mercury

Sky 26th June 1959 19:00

picture.php





Insoaltion 27th June 1959 June 1959 19:00 – Green cross represents insoaltion at time – clearly in the black .

picture.php


Sky 27th June 1959 18:00

picture.php


Insoaltion 27th June 1959 18:00 – again green mark shows that is on the cusp out Nautical twilight and certainly not in daylight! – daylight is the light blue area.

picture.php


Therefore your statement “The times you provide matched with the sighting times mean the UFO WAS initially seen in daylight (especially on the second “night” “ – is wrong!
 
...After “nosing over” (the only possible prudent action without avionics or communications with either the backseater or tower) ...

I think you must have missed a meeting. We did that one already. There was nothing wrong with the avionics. They lost comms and weapons control.
 
If you're going to continue insisting you know anything about Phantoms, Rramjet, you can answer my question: how would you get range information from a mirror and the RWR system?
 
The conversation has moved on Puddle Duck.

You initially claimed total radar blindness for the F-4 to the rear.
Actually, you twisted what he said. He said the alleged "transcript" sounded screwy becuse it appeared to be reporting ranging information, but there was no way for the aircrew to measure the range of a craft to their rear. That is absolutely true, and you have failed to explain how they could do better than guess whether it was catching them, holding station, falling back or even whether the object in their mirrors was actually Jupiter.

The conversation has plainly not moved on. You're still bleating about blimps, and everyone else thinks that argument was dead and buried dozens of pages ago.
 
Henry stated the takeoff with “A/B” was rare… you have not yet shown that this to be incorrect.

You are incorrect. Henry reportedly said takeoffs at full power at night with afterburners were rare. Full power & afterburners makes a racket that wakes people up. That's a perfectly good reason for it rarely to be done in the middle of the night.
 
Finally, the use of these devices, I have shown above, is not necessary for the pilot to have provided the range data he did. Given the circumstances and the information available, such range estimates are possible.

How do you figure? How does a pilot estimate range based on a visual sighting of an object he has no idea of it's actual size? The RWR has no ability to do this and the mirrors certainly offer no range information. I asked earlier if you could list what "available instrumentation" (your words) was used in conjunction with the WAG the pilots were making about distances. You never responded, which indicates you had no idea what instrumentation could do this. Now you imply that pilot was perfectly able to estimate ranges to an unknown object that was approaching his craft while he was flying his plane and maneuvering away. Give us a break from this nonsense.

More, you are making an unfounded assertion based on a single example that the Iranian F-4s had the "drop tanks" on. You cannot know this. You also have provided no data concerning what the top seed IS WITH the tanks on

He did. The manual he provided has numerous tables that show the airspeeds with various configurations of the aircraft.
http://mstewart.net/subob/fighters/f4.pdf

Go to page 12 in the document (fig 5-10). It lists the wing tanks airspeed as Mach 1.6 (if I read this correctly).

BTW, the links he provided worked for me. I guess you need to fix your browser again. Here are the actual links in case you can't figure out his instructions about leaving out the space.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=312&pictureid=1900

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=312&pictureid=1899
 
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Notice of absence...

I am sorry to do this... but it's unavoidable and some of you are actually going to get your wish!

I have to go away for a couple of weeks or so and will be unable to to post for the duration.

I know there are some outstanding issues and I know some people have put a fair amount of time into this and unanswered questions remain that deserve my attention. I apologise if that unduly inconveniences anyone.

I am not "dropping out" however, as I will pick it up again when I return (if there is anything left to pick up that is ;), as I still have a number of points that need to be made.

I can say it's been a hell of a ride so far - and I look forward to picking up again in a couple of weeks.

Regards,
Roger.
 
A follow up to an earlier post of mine for anyone that’s interested…

Conclusion: At best the DIA analyst (Col. Evans) believed the reporting official’s secondhand source to be credible [then again analysts believed there were WMD in Iraq] and Maccabee’s “analysis” is based in large part on a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts, errors of omission, and obfuscation… in other words, this case is nothing more than unsubstantiated National Enquirer material.
In light of some extensive additional original source documentation found here….

1976 Iran Part 1 MUFON Case File (lots of interesting stuff)

On the provenance of Lt. Col. Mooy’s “Memorandum for Record” that’s being upheld as the “Holy Grail” in this case by some UFOlogists, the late Phil Klass states in a (rather heated) letter to UFO researcher Todd Zechel dated September 2, 1988…

[emphasis Klass]

“On 07 August 1977, Maj. Gen. Kenneth P. Miles, Chief of MAAG in Iran, in reply to my request, wrote to enclose several items about the UFO incident. (See Exhibit "A"). One of these items was a photo-copy of a two-page UNCLASSIFIED summary of the debriefing of the second F-4 crew in which USAF officers participated. (See Exhibit "B") Why a security classification of "Confidential" was added, and by whom, when this unclassified debriefing report later was sent by teletype dispatch to Washington is beyond me!”

And here’s what the General wrote to Klass…

”Attached is all the information that we in the MAAG-Iran have regarding the UFO incident which occurred 19 Sep 76. I am unable to provide any additional information or insights beyond the attached. I share your view that there is no evidence to suggest that the earth is being visited by extra-terrestrial spaceships. We looked at these places the next day but were unable to find anything. Sorry I cannot be of more help but hopefully this will substantiate the news article.”

And here’s the list of attachments to the letter…

1. ARAF-0 MFR, undtd
2. Newspaper clipping, "UFO - Phantoms in chase over South Tehran."
3. Newspaper clipping, "The Air Force and the bright thing in the sky."


And here’s how Mooy’s memo is addressed…

FROM: ARAF-0
MEMORANDUM FOR RECORD
SUBJECT: UFO Sighting
TO: ARCG


I wasn’t able to decipher those two office symbols but it appears intended for MAAG internal use only. As Astrophotographer would say, this amounts to nothing more than “stamp collecting” as there’s no accompanying analysis or recommendation for further action… it’s simply a memorandum for the record outlining what the Iranian’s reported to them.

Note that while the memo is undated, the General states they actually did visit the alleged “landing” site with the IIAF and Klass tells Zechel…

“While examining Exhibit "B" you will discover you made still another error. The debriefing summary was not written by USAF Col. Frank McKenzie, as you claim, but by Lt. Col. Olin Mooy, who signed the report. When I interviewed Mooy in his home last December, he told me that he and Col. Jerry Johnson (now retired) were invited to the debriefing by the Imperial Iranian Air Force. Mooy said that Johnson wrote the original draft report and that Mooy wrote the final version.”

[funny how the roles have seemed to reverse here in the present isn’t it?]

End of story? I think not…

Note that the first newspaper article dated Monday, September 20 states that somebody had already leaked the story to the press the same night (early Sunday morning) of the event…

”Late Saturday night the Ettela'at evening daily reporter who broke the story in Tehran, said that highly informed sources had told him that the pilots tried to open fire on the object when it became obvious it was changing its course against them but, inexplicably, their electronically-operated devices failed to respond.”

This would seem to indicate the basic narrative of Mooy’s memo had already been established before the “debriefing” the MAAG (the IIAF’s local “Help Desk”) was invited to and the ”treasure hunt” that occurred later that day.

[the object remained visible in the sky for four or so hours I believe]

Note the second article (that Maccabee basically hand waves away in his “analysis”) dated Tuesday, September 21 states that an unidentified official stated that although the reported loss of instruments, attempt to fire, and turnaround chase did not occur, he was still puzzled by one of the reports…

“The official summed it all up by saying the reports, which first appeared in afternoon papers on Sunday, were "exaggerated" A reported verbatim conversation between Pilot 'J' and ground control, in which he reported the different lights and the chase, left the official "frankly puzzled."

But he agreed that there was no apparent explanation for what the pilot DID see.”


This probably reflects the general consensus that came out of the “debriefing” and (failed) “treasure hunt” and would explain why there was no follow up on the US side.

Note that the letter from General Miles to Klass was sent approximately one month before the McKenzie teletype (aka “routing slip”) was officially declassified on August 31, 1977 and released to the public via the FOIA. The Mooy memo, which was obviously never classified to begin with, is worded almost exactly the same as the teletype except the memo has a little more detail (in the form of some specifics like Yousefi’s name) and the teletype has this one sentence at the end originally marked [C] for “Confidential”…

RO COMMENTS: [redacted] ACTUAL INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS REPORT WAS OBTAINED FROM SOURCE IN CONVERSATION WITH A SUB-SOURCE, AND IIAF PILOT OF ONE OF THE F-4S.

Note again that this sentence was redacted in the first copy of the teletype released by the Air Force but present in the latter DIA release. (Evan’s wide-eyed “analysis”)

Recall that McKenzie claimed the teletype was based on secondhand information from no single source and that most of the details of the incident had already appeared in the papers and also recall that the information contained in the teletype had already been “leaked” by someone shortly after (or in light of this new analysis, possibly even before) it was sent up the chain for review on (I think) September 23. (~4 days after the incident occurred)

So now the question is who actually wrote this “official” narrative? Mooy claims he and Johnson wrote it while Mckenzie claims he did. I see no reason for Mooy to lie to Klass or for McKenzie to try and hide the fact he got it from Mooy if that was the case given that the MAAG never classified it or tried to conceal their involvement. So then the question becomes if indeed Mooy did write it as it appears, where did McKenzie get the copy he edited slightly [and psst, added his confidential comment to] from?

[now some of you out there might be thinking “Who cares?” and I don’t necessarily disagree]

Note the original National Enquirer article ran on November 30, 1976 which is a little over a week after the sighting and note what Pratt says in this letter dated March 3, 1977 about thier interview a few months later with General Azarbarzin…

[one of the 6 Iranian officials awarded $5,000 each for the story by the Enquirer]

“Perhaps the most interesting item in this package is Cathcart's interview with the Iranian general. Several things the general said were quite interesting but the most significant was a statement to the effect that the Iranian and U.S. air forces exchange information on UFOs. We were never able to verify anything of this nature from the Pentagon or the Air Force or the Military Assistance and Advisory Group (MAAG) in Tehran. The best we could get out of the U.S. military in Tehran was that the Iranians invited MAAG to have someone sit in on the debriefing of the two jet pilots. An Army colonel in charge of public information for MAAG told us that two relatively low-ranking staff officers from the U.S. Air Force did sit in on the debriefing but no report was ever made on the session and none was ever sent to the Pentagon.”

And here’s what Azarbarzin said in that interview dated January 1, 1977…

“Q. Are you planning to take any further action?
A. No, no, we do not but we have—all we have done we have given all the information—of course that was the request from U.S. We have given all this information to our
[something crossed out and MAAG written in by hand instead -AD]. I think they send it to the organization in the States and—we haven't done anything since that time.
Q. You mean you passed the information to the United States Air Force?
A, Yes.
Q. They requested it, did they?
A. Well, actually, they have this procedure if we have some information on UFO we're just exchanging all this information and we did it.”


Note this was months after the Mooy memo had already been “leaked” and months before Klass talked to Mooy and the McKenzie teletype was declassified. Like Pratt said, there’s some interesting (albeit for a different reason than his no doubt) stuff in this interview that Maccabee et. al. has failed to address like…

“Q. But as far as you were concerned, we had one report there was an order went out to fire the missiles but you say in fact that wasn't true?
A. Oh, no! Why should we.
Q. They were posing no danger to anybody?
A. No, why should they? And actually since it was unknown we just wanted, to identify it, so we did.
Q. But so far you haven't been able to identify these UFOs and as far as you're concerned they go down as unexplainable?
A. No, that's true. But I think that if you get the report from our military attache, it would give you more information and more detail. So we’re trying to send this information to (military attache)”


Now why did Pratt (or whoever) write in MAAG when it seems to me what the General was actually concerned about is what McKenzie’s office would be involved with?

(the Defense Attaché Office in Tehran)

Any lights come on for anybody besides me?

[Ramjet can’t answer that one since he has already proven himself unfit for duty in the dot-connecting department]

Also, does this sound familiar to anyone…

NICAP UFO INVESTIGATOR (November 1976)

From: NICAP UFO INVESTIGATOR (November 1976)
Sighting: Sept. 19, 1976

IRANIAN AIR FORCE JETS SCRAMBLED

Attempt To Fire On UFO Fails


Shortly after midnight on September 19, 1976, the Iranian Air Force command post in Tehran, Iran started receiving calls from local citizens reporting a strange object in the sky. The object was variously described as, "Bird-like," "A bright light," and "A helicopter with a shining light." The command post duty officer, knowing there were no helicopters in the area, called B.G. Yousefi, Assistant Deputy Commander of Operations for instructions. Yousefi told the citizens that they were observing a star. However, after talking with control tower personnel, he decided that possibly something unusual was being observed and that he should see for himself.

The object he saw was like a star but much bigger and brighter. So much so that he made the decision to scramble a F-4 jet from Shahrokhi Air force Base to investigate.

<big snip>

Editorial Comment

Every important policy making and investigative branch of the United States Government is aware of this excellent report, but no public announcements have been made. A great deal of political rhetoric covers the public's right to know, but when it comes to UFO activity, the public is only informed by private organizations.
Pfft… Note the November 1976 publishing date is within a week or so of the sighting and that it’s almost an exact word for word [save the use of words like “mothership” in place of “object”] copy of Mooy’s memo…

[as opposed to McKenzie’s slightly less detailed teletype]

AD
 
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Update: Page 77 and over 3000 postings into this thread, and not a single piece of evidence has been presented yet to support the original poster's claim that aliens exist.

Oh no. Aliens may well exist in some little corner of the almost infinite universe, it's just that they're not here, and not likely to ever be. ;)
 
Yep! - And just our luck they will come on this board, just as Ramjet takes off for 2 weeks. Life is a bitch sometimes....
 
Maybe someone who agrees with Rramjet can take up his mantle.

Oh, wait...
 
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