There has been a lot of discussion on the rearward sensing antenna and the mirrors
The rear radar receiver. The term being bandied about here is RWR, so maybe the name has been changed. I knew it as RHAW (Radar Homing And Warning) so I’ll use this term. First everyone seems to have a slight misunderstanding of the device. It is not just to the rear, it is an omnidirectional system. It is not a radar, it is a receiver, nothing goes out (think of it as a more complicated version of an auto radar detector, the auto detectors actually derived from this technology,) The four antennas are placed on each side of the nose and each side of the tail area. The interior part consists of a small display scope with concentric rings on it and a small panel with ten labeled lights that is commonly known as the billboard For those that have the PDF named “f4-1”, from
mstewart.net/subob/fighters/f4.pd
(replace the Ws.)
Scroll down to the front cockpit drawings and look at the section called “main panel area”. The block to the right and separated from the rest with the small scope that has a vertical line on it is the azimuth indicator (number 8 on the label list). This tells you what direction from you the radar is. When a radar is painting you, a line display goes from the center toward the radar’s direction and shows the strength of the signal by the length of the line. There will be a signal in the earphones, normally some sort of buzz that indicates the type of radar, (the volume also indicates the strength). Each type of radar has a different sound.
Directly below this labeled 8B is the threat display or billboard. The system filters the signal parameters, and if the signal meets a template, illuminates one of the lights. The drawing on the front cockpit is really bad, the one on the rear cockpit not good but still better. It is labeled 9 on the “main panel area” of the rear cockpit.
RHAW is a receiver only, it can not range any thing but it will tell you the relative power of what is looking at you. A high power xmitter further from you than a weaker one closer, will show as a stronger signal. The billboard was optimized for the Soviet threat and had lights for air intercept, anti-aircraft gun laying, SA-2 missile and several other radars.
So to answer the question that is uppermost, no, it can’t give a range to the UFO behind this F-4, even if the UFO was using radar, which there was no indication of usage and no statement that the RHAW detected anything or was even turned on. I didn’t mention RHAW simply because I couldn’t see any relevance.
The mirrors. The F-4 has always had mirrors for both the front and rear seats. The reason that I didn’t mention them was that they are only marginally effective and are useful only at fairly short range The GIB leaning forward and twisting to look over his shoulder is more effective. Since at one point, he radioed that he thought he was getting run over, it was logical for the bogey to be co-altitude and could not be seen as it was directly at his six. He would have had to some maneuver to look behind him, such as check turning to one side to see it. In addition, unless it was huge it would still be a point source of light, even at five miles.
One thing that I didn’t see anyone mention is that the E model has an allowed local modification (at least it was back then) to put a pair of mirrors on the outside of the rear cockpit. The reason for this was because the inside mirrors were not that effective and they were looking for a better solution for the poor rearward visibility. It should have helped, even though it added drag.. At the time there were only a few in use. I don’t know how many or if, the Iranians used when they got their planes.
Ramjet, since you do not believe that I flew F-4s (there is no way that I can prove that I am who I say I am-After all, I could be a dog at the terminal), and that having tanks on air-to-air alert aircraft is standard, here is a task for you. I hear that in the Google, you are strong. Get a list of Air National Guard bases, find out which ones flew F-4s, get into contact with the unit historian, find out if they sat air intercept alert, if so, ask him if their alert birds always carried drop tanks.
Report back. I am not trying to be facetious.
From Rramjet
Puddle Duck. Why do you limit yourself to one single source of information and then complain it is not good enough?
Rramjet keeps insisting that I should have used all the available documentation to give my thoughts on the event. This I believe, will be the fourth time that I stated that
the only document that I had when I wrote was the Maccabee article
This is somewhat analogous to stating that Scott should have not continued to the South Pole because: Amundsen was probably ahead of him, and since he was probably ahead of him, he was ahead of him, and since he was ahead of him, he was going to beat him to the Pole, so he, Scott, should have not tried. It would have saved Scott some grief though, if he had paid attention.
Thenceforth I’ll use the routing slip as gospel, and anything else as filler. If I find something else, I will include it as filler.
Let us look at the statements made by Henry.
From Rramjet
Dr Maccabee stated he interviewed both Henry and Bob (the avionics engineers). THAT is a fact ON the record.
And
As for the take off speeds. Again I reiterate. We have the “man on the ground” (electronics engineer Henry) telling us that the jets took of WITH afterburners - and also that was a “rare” occurrence
First Henry and pal were Radar engineers, not avionics. And of course the jets took of with A/B.
All right children (and Rramjet), I was finally able to get a couple of charts posted here. These are the Take Off charts out of my Dash 1 (yes, it really is mine originally & not from Ebay). There is a max power and a mil power version Copy these and print them out
We will compare a heavy weight takeoff at Shahroki.
Lets go for a temperature of 105 degrees F-40 degrees C (should be a reasonable temp for early Aug in the afternoon, runway elevation of 5600 ft, a takeoff weight of 58,000 pounds and no wind on a 10,000 foot runway (Shahroki was a one runway strip of 10k feet at that time).
When you solve each one write down the T.O. distance, compare them with each other and with the length of the runway.
The charts are self-explanatory, but I’ll guide you through.
Each big chart has one small chart on the left and three on the right. Start at the bottom of the left hand chart at temp 40 degrees and run a light pencil line up the chart until it intersects with the field elevation of 5600 ft (this is actual field elevation, not density altitude). You will have to interpolate.
From that point do the pencil straight across to the top right chart to the aircraft weight of 58,000 pounds, You will have to interpolate again. You can also find the T.O. speed for that weight here, it should be about 192 knots. When you use the mil chart, you will also have to extrapolate some weight curves off the chart to the right.
From that point, drop your line straight down to the bottom of the tiny chart below. The number you get is the Take Off Roll.
For giggles, use the present length of the longest runway-14,300 ft, and compare that to the two takeoff runs.
For extra credit, look at the present weather forecast for Hamedan if it’s available, use the high for the day, run the numbers again and compare with the 10k ft runway length. It should be getting chilly there by now.
Would mil power takeoffs be the norm here?
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Since I can’t post links yet delete the spaces after the first h.
