Andrew Wiggin
Master Poster
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- Aug 11, 2009
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This twinkie of a thread still hasn't gone stale, I see. 74 pages, and the creamy filling is as sticky and substance free as ever.
A
A
- Status
Puddle Duck
Scholar
Well Ramjet, you’ve got me! I’ve never seen any airplane I just come into this boards and spread fear , uncertainty and doubt. I’m really a 12 yr old middle schooler getting onto Teh Intertoobz using my 386 maching and Windoze 3.1. I’ve been living in my parent’s basement for the last 20 years. I use my Spirit Guides to help me, Heinz Guderain when I go to army sites, Frank J Fletcher for the navy and Richard Bong for flying sites. [/sarcasm]
Now Rramjet, untwist your knickers, forget about the Logic-Fail fetish, take a deep cleansing breath and we’ll start
First lets make sure sure we are on the right page. Everything I posted first, came from one source, and only one source
IRANIAN JET CASE.doc. Mine has, on the first page,
THE IRANIAN JET UFO CHASE
In 26 point red, plus a couple of photos of what appears to be Tehran. This is the only source that I used for the first part of my post. If that is not where you are, go find it.
Now that we have that out of the way, go back and read the third paragraph of my first post. You will note that I said that I’m not going to look at the UFO, but only the aviating side of it. The story really is almost incomprehensible from the aircraft side. I do not know from whence come either Mr Pratt or Mr Maccabee. Mr Pratt, since he is a UFO writer from the National Enquirer, I assume is a UFO as ET supporter, but I have no idea for Mr Maccabee. Maybe someone could enlighten me. The piece is filled with contradictions and not enough details for what would be full debriefing of what was a strange encounter. I suspect that the real debriefs are buried in the bowels of some intelligence office of the Iranian Air Force, if they haven’t been tossed. If you think the document is screwed up, one of the authors could shoulder the blame.
I wrote is what I think is the most logical sequence of events, from the published document It started with the Westinghouse tech being awakened. At the end of this, I’ll put up a couple of charts and let anyone who cares, find the take off runs for both Mil and Max power. I apologize for using jargon, I just forgot that most people don’t know it. Max power is full afterburner, Mil power is military power and is defined somewhat simplistically as the engines turning at 100% of rated power without using A/B (meaning AfterBurner) I found one site that showed that Shahroki as having one runway of 10,000 feet. Several other sites show the present configuration as two runways at about right angles with the longest of 13,000 feet. That is a long runway. There are a lot of others around the world longer but still, 13,000 feet is long.
Let me give my thought processes on the lead up. Remember, this is all speculation on my part, and I said that. The tower chief comes to work, the radar is down, presumably due to maintenance (this should be the Approach Control radar), he gets some calls from around the city, sees something odd and calls the Command Post for guidance. (Command Post (CP) is somewhat like a clearing house for information going into the top unit on the base. It does things like report to higher headquarters, and keep track of aircraft status & the reasons they aren’t ready, aircrew status like out sick, on leave, temporally away, etc. and anything around the base that is broken or out of service. It becomes the “throne room” of sorts when the unit commander is there.) Someone goes out and looks at the sky, decides “this is above my pay grade” and calls the General. He goes out, looks at the sky and says “this is strange, I wonder what it is, Let’s find out” He calls Shahroki and says send someone up to check this out. [I did not see him getting upset, just curious.] He thinks about it for a while and decides send another bird. There is nothing in the story that explains his decision to send another.
#1 F-4 arrives has problems and chases the bogey out to the east. The author of this pretty much stated the chase happened, when he said that the Bogey is back while #1 is still 150 miles away. I chose east because #1 came in from the southwest, the Soviets are to the north and northeast, and Iraq is not that far away to the west, and if it went those directions, it seems he would have broken off the chase earlier. As for speed, I have no idea, since the author did not say, I picked 420 for lack of anything better.
An aside, I chose 420 knots from the field because it is a good all around combat airspeed, since there is no one in the area planning on shooting at him. If he were out for a sightseeing hop, he would have chosen a speed somewhere around 360 which is a low cruise speed. At 420, it is still reasonable on fuel flow and has enough energy to push it up and get over 500 pretty quick. For a long distance cruise, such as going from airport A to airport B, it was a standard habit to climb to cruise altitude, set the fuel flow to 6,000 pounds per hour total, accept the speed you got and turn on the autopilot.
#2 gets airborne talks to the tower (or CP) and to #1 so he turns right to intercept #1. He passes Tehran to the south and is southwest of Tehran about 50-75 miles when #1 turns back. The author again does not mention any parameters.
I’ll now try to address some of Rramjets concern
Do you have a time-annotated transcript of the tower tapes? Without that, making statements about what is on the tapes is pretty much useless. That goes especially for the range calls of the chasing bogey with the range calls.
The radar film I was talking about was from the camera inside the airplane that allows the operator to make a motion picture of the scope display, not a site that collects odd reports.
When an aircraft has major maintenance work done it such as removing an engine, it has to have a flight to check all the systems to ensure that they work. That is called an FCF. It is not something that requires a test pilot like Chuck Yeager. It has to be done before the airplane is allowed to go back into operational flying, and is always done clean of all external stores. Sometimes the maintenance people have special requests to look at particular systems doing particular things. The person who usually does these flights is the Wing Maintenance Officer, who works five days a week For about six months, I was my squadrons FCF pilot, and flew them when needed on weekends. When I was getting checked out for the job, I flew three flights with him, one of which was a mil takeoff. I flew about 20-25 during this time, and finally got tired of being called out on weekends when I flew three flights in two days. For my squadron, the minimum time to hold the position was six months and I think I shed it after about 6 ½ months. During that time I had one flight that required a mil takeoff. Notice the difference between Operational and Check flying.
The F- 4 really is radar blind to the rear. It is a Fact. It doesn’t matter what anyone believes.
Go here and get the PDF.
wwwdotmstewartdotnet/subob/fighters/f4.pdf
-------------------replace the word dot with the dot
The top is a side cutaway of the F-4. Now tell me where the radar dish is that looks to the rear.
The antenna scans left to right from 60 decrees left to 60 degrees right of the aircraft centerline. The antenna is able to be moved from 60 degrees up to 60 degrees down. The main lobe is, if I remember correctly (and I’m not all that positive, It’s been a long time), 3 ½ degrees across. Now move down the page to the rear cockpit and move to the far right to the right console. You will see what looks like a joystick. It is a joystick and is used for most of the radar controls. Look at the top of it slightly to the left and notice what looks like a mouse wheel. That moves the elevation of the antenna up and down. Move to the left and look at the bottom of the center panel; note what looks like a small scope. That is the radar display.
What I want him to do is turn hard to put the missile on his beam, going inverted and diving and getting as much airspeed as he can, then get right side up while still diving. He then has to determine how far away it is so that when it gets close enough, he pulls hard up. His problem is that he can’t see it, since the tower chief saw the launch and said that it was lit for “only a few seconds”. In another document, the tower chief says that they both came over the field at 2500 AGL. If the tower chief is right on the altitude, his only real way of escaping is to get down and try to get buildings or something between him and the missile, and he has to do it fast. Just bumping over will not do it.
Now tell me Rramjet, what it the time of flight of a missile launched from 25 miles away in the dark? No other information given.
Show me in this document, not another one. I don’t see anything about distance and the launch was not obvious until the fact.
Rramjet, will you do an exercise for me? Using only this document, IRANIAN JET CASE.doc, give me a flight profile of each of the F-4s, with direction, speed, altitude, distance from the airport or Tehran, distance from the UFO, what he was trying to and what the UFO was trying to do. Do it for the full flights. Do not speculate, show all the data and reference it.
This is getting too long, so I’ll stop for the moment and be back
Anyone a little help. I tried to post a couple of graphics using
Now Rramjet, untwist your knickers, forget about the Logic-Fail fetish, take a deep cleansing breath and we’ll start
First lets make sure sure we are on the right page. Everything I posted first, came from one source, and only one source
IRANIAN JET CASE.doc. Mine has, on the first page,
THE IRANIAN JET UFO CHASE
In 26 point red, plus a couple of photos of what appears to be Tehran. This is the only source that I used for the first part of my post. If that is not where you are, go find it.
Now that we have that out of the way, go back and read the third paragraph of my first post. You will note that I said that I’m not going to look at the UFO, but only the aviating side of it. The story really is almost incomprehensible from the aircraft side. I do not know from whence come either Mr Pratt or Mr Maccabee. Mr Pratt, since he is a UFO writer from the National Enquirer, I assume is a UFO as ET supporter, but I have no idea for Mr Maccabee. Maybe someone could enlighten me. The piece is filled with contradictions and not enough details for what would be full debriefing of what was a strange encounter. I suspect that the real debriefs are buried in the bowels of some intelligence office of the Iranian Air Force, if they haven’t been tossed. If you think the document is screwed up, one of the authors could shoulder the blame.
I wrote is what I think is the most logical sequence of events, from the published document It started with the Westinghouse tech being awakened. At the end of this, I’ll put up a couple of charts and let anyone who cares, find the take off runs for both Mil and Max power. I apologize for using jargon, I just forgot that most people don’t know it. Max power is full afterburner, Mil power is military power and is defined somewhat simplistically as the engines turning at 100% of rated power without using A/B (meaning AfterBurner) I found one site that showed that Shahroki as having one runway of 10,000 feet. Several other sites show the present configuration as two runways at about right angles with the longest of 13,000 feet. That is a long runway. There are a lot of others around the world longer but still, 13,000 feet is long.
Let me give my thought processes on the lead up. Remember, this is all speculation on my part, and I said that. The tower chief comes to work, the radar is down, presumably due to maintenance (this should be the Approach Control radar), he gets some calls from around the city, sees something odd and calls the Command Post for guidance. (Command Post (CP) is somewhat like a clearing house for information going into the top unit on the base. It does things like report to higher headquarters, and keep track of aircraft status & the reasons they aren’t ready, aircrew status like out sick, on leave, temporally away, etc. and anything around the base that is broken or out of service. It becomes the “throne room” of sorts when the unit commander is there.) Someone goes out and looks at the sky, decides “this is above my pay grade” and calls the General. He goes out, looks at the sky and says “this is strange, I wonder what it is, Let’s find out” He calls Shahroki and says send someone up to check this out. [I did not see him getting upset, just curious.] He thinks about it for a while and decides send another bird. There is nothing in the story that explains his decision to send another.
#1 F-4 arrives has problems and chases the bogey out to the east. The author of this pretty much stated the chase happened, when he said that the Bogey is back while #1 is still 150 miles away. I chose east because #1 came in from the southwest, the Soviets are to the north and northeast, and Iraq is not that far away to the west, and if it went those directions, it seems he would have broken off the chase earlier. As for speed, I have no idea, since the author did not say, I picked 420 for lack of anything better.
An aside, I chose 420 knots from the field because it is a good all around combat airspeed, since there is no one in the area planning on shooting at him. If he were out for a sightseeing hop, he would have chosen a speed somewhere around 360 which is a low cruise speed. At 420, it is still reasonable on fuel flow and has enough energy to push it up and get over 500 pretty quick. For a long distance cruise, such as going from airport A to airport B, it was a standard habit to climb to cruise altitude, set the fuel flow to 6,000 pounds per hour total, accept the speed you got and turn on the autopilot.
#2 gets airborne talks to the tower (or CP) and to #1 so he turns right to intercept #1. He passes Tehran to the south and is southwest of Tehran about 50-75 miles when #1 turns back. The author again does not mention any parameters.
I’ll now try to address some of Rramjets concern
Interesting site. I’ve never heard of it. I’ll read it and get back.
Do you have a time-annotated transcript of the tower tapes? Without that, making statements about what is on the tapes is pretty much useless. That goes especially for the range calls of the chasing bogey with the range calls.
The radar film I was talking about was from the camera inside the airplane that allows the operator to make a motion picture of the scope display, not a site that collects odd reports.
Refer back to the definition of powers.
When an aircraft has major maintenance work done it such as removing an engine, it has to have a flight to check all the systems to ensure that they work. That is called an FCF. It is not something that requires a test pilot like Chuck Yeager. It has to be done before the airplane is allowed to go back into operational flying, and is always done clean of all external stores. Sometimes the maintenance people have special requests to look at particular systems doing particular things. The person who usually does these flights is the Wing Maintenance Officer, who works five days a week For about six months, I was my squadrons FCF pilot, and flew them when needed on weekends. When I was getting checked out for the job, I flew three flights with him, one of which was a mil takeoff. I flew about 20-25 during this time, and finally got tired of being called out on weekends when I flew three flights in two days. For my squadron, the minimum time to hold the position was six months and I think I shed it after about 6 ½ months. During that time I had one flight that required a mil takeoff. Notice the difference between Operational and Check flying.
There is nothing to indicate where the beeper was coming from. Now I don’t know for sure but it seems that all the airliners were hearing the same one. It also seems that the beeper was somewhat away from the tower since they didn’t seem to hear it. The logical answer is someone was playing with one or that a small general aviation airpatch (if any existed there) had one fall on the concrete. Since there was nothing mentioned in the story, there is no answer. There is nothing to connect it with the UFO other than temporally.
Babolsar- I don’t know. My mistake. Not in my knowledge base The story had Tehran checking them for a possible paint, so the assumption was that there was a field close to the radar site, as that is usually where they are situated. I did not know where any F-4 bases were or what models they were. Remember I had only one source. Blame Maccabee.
The F- 4 really is radar blind to the rear. It is a Fact. It doesn’t matter what anyone believes.
Go here and get the PDF.
wwwdotmstewartdotnet/subob/fighters/f4.pdf
-------------------replace the word dot with the dot
The top is a side cutaway of the F-4. Now tell me where the radar dish is that looks to the rear.
The antenna scans left to right from 60 decrees left to 60 degrees right of the aircraft centerline. The antenna is able to be moved from 60 degrees up to 60 degrees down. The main lobe is, if I remember correctly (and I’m not all that positive, It’s been a long time), 3 ½ degrees across. Now move down the page to the rear cockpit and move to the far right to the right console. You will see what looks like a joystick. It is a joystick and is used for most of the radar controls. Look at the top of it slightly to the left and notice what looks like a mouse wheel. That moves the elevation of the antenna up and down. Move to the left and look at the bottom of the center panel; note what looks like a small scope. That is the radar display.
Go back & read what I said on your quote of me. What he did was solve the firing solution for the incoming missile He is not trying to engage, he most assuredly is trying to dodge what he thinks is an incoming missile. Like I said, by turning and bumping down, that would guarantee he dies. He doesn’t even say if he has a growl (the growl is a tone in the headset sent from the AIM-9 that says that it is looking at a heat source), and is trying to shoot way way out of range.
What I want him to do is turn hard to put the missile on his beam, going inverted and diving and getting as much airspeed as he can, then get right side up while still diving. He then has to determine how far away it is so that when it gets close enough, he pulls hard up. His problem is that he can’t see it, since the tower chief saw the launch and said that it was lit for “only a few seconds”. In another document, the tower chief says that they both came over the field at 2500 AGL. If the tower chief is right on the altitude, his only real way of escaping is to get down and try to get buildings or something between him and the missile, and he has to do it fast. Just bumping over will not do it.
Now tell me Rramjet, what it the time of flight of a missile launched from 25 miles away in the dark? No other information given.
Show me in this document, not another one. I don’t see anything about distance and the launch was not obvious until the fact.
Rramjet, will you do an exercise for me? Using only this document, IRANIAN JET CASE.doc, give me a flight profile of each of the F-4s, with direction, speed, altitude, distance from the airport or Tehran, distance from the UFO, what he was trying to and what the UFO was trying to do. Do it for the full flights. Do not speculate, show all the data and reference it.
This is getting too long, so I’ll stop for the moment and be back
Anyone a little help. I tried to post a couple of graphics using
fromdownunder
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2006
- Messages
- 6,721
Rramjet, at this point, you have named two major incidents in an attempt to confirm your hypothesis. With the Rogue River thingie, the available evidence has now convinced me, and possibly 90% of other readers of this thread that a Blimp is the most likely hypothesis.
With the Iran incident, I am getting more convinced from every post that it simply comes down to no/poor reporting of the available facts., and you have provided no evidence of alien origins for anything.
Can we ever get to the biggie? Where is your silver bullet that provides specific evidence for aliens? We have been waiting for weeks. and thousands of posts for nothing?
Or should I congratulate you for bringing people's attention to these two events to such an extent that further investigation has provided enough additional information, that we can now make informed decisions that in fact that these events can be almost dismissed as UFOs.
If that was your purpose, you have achieved it beyond your wildest dreams. Congratulations, Mystery close to solved.
Norm
With the Iran incident, I am getting more convinced from every post that it simply comes down to no/poor reporting of the available facts., and you have provided no evidence of alien origins for anything.
Can we ever get to the biggie? Where is your silver bullet that provides specific evidence for aliens? We have been waiting for weeks. and thousands of posts for nothing?
Or should I congratulate you for bringing people's attention to these two events to such an extent that further investigation has provided enough additional information, that we can now make informed decisions that in fact that these events can be almost dismissed as UFOs.
If that was your purpose, you have achieved it beyond your wildest dreams. Congratulations, Mystery close to solved.
Norm
ferd burfle
Graduate Poster
Puddle Duck, check your private messages.
ferd
ferd
Belgian thought
Master Poster
- Joined
- May 3, 2004
- Messages
- 2,344
From the same source that states:
“….but as we watcheed (sic) it, men came out from this object…”
“There were four men in all… noticed the various times that men appeared (note: not appeared to be)”
“As one of the men seemed to lean over as though over a rail and look down on us, I waved one hand overhead and the figure did the same as though a skipper on a boat waving to someone on a wharf.”
Well at least they were friendly and had learned our ways, why they need to shove things up our bottoms to find this out I will never know.
(emphasis men. BT)
Such as “It both hovered and remained stationary.”?
And all this coming from a guy who lies regularly every Sunday to a multitude of people (sorry could not resist that)
Or any.
The H-3 helicopter program has been a model of success since its introduction to the U.S. Navy in 1959. Source: Sikorsky website and what would they know?
Also, waving for over 4 hours? – What strong arms and such commitment, and a bit overfriendly if you ask me.
Have you ever been to the seaside? – Depending on wind direction, noise, if ahead of the wind, is reduced strongly making things such as a helicopter inaudible from a surprisingly close distance.
BTW I live 1500 metres from an airport,50 flights a day, medium sized jets. From my balcony, if the wind is blowing in the right direction, and is strong enough, on some days I can hardly hear the planes. This being without the damping effect of the sea.
Delusional – pot black etc..
No
June 26th:
Sunset: 17:48
Civil twilight: 18:10
Naut. Twilight: 18:37
Astro. Twilight: 19:03 – now it is very dark
Moonrise: 22:56 – from behind the observers
June 27th:
Sunset: 17:48
Civil twilight: 18:11
Naut. Twilight: 18:37
Astro. Twilight: 19:03 – again very dark
Moonrise: 23:44
I could not find many good photos to be honest except for this one.
However, I love this artist’s impression of a glowing Sea King rescuing a fallen UFO, with an apparently waving humanoid.
No - see above times.
True – my mistake, but US Navy has been operating in the area since WWII
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amb
Unregistered
- Joined
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The best brains in the scientific field, astronomers, biologists, etc, etc have looked at this phenomena and all have said that there's nothing in it. It's all bunkum. That's good enough to convince me.
Project Blue Book years ago also reached the same conclusions. Just what will it take to convince Ufologists that their dreams are just that. Impossible dreams.
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
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Move on kid ...we're talking about the RWR.
Astrophotographer
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2004
- Messages
- 1,843
Passive radar detection is not the same as active radar. You can not get range data from a passive radar (which only senses incoming radar signals).
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Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
Puddle Duck. Why do you limit yourself to one single source of information and then complain it is not good enough? That you restrict yourself in such a manner is deliberately blinding yourself to potentially useful and clarifying information. There exist other sources that clarify MANY of the questions and concerns you raise.
You then make many unfounded assertions concerning Dr Maccabee (“The story really is almost incomprehensible from the aircraft side") and Mr Pratt (“I assume is a UFO as ET supporter”). These are not supported by the evidence and in making such assertions you cast a shadow over whatever else you might have to say. You should stick to the FACTS.
Regarding F-4 #1 you stated: ”...I picked 420 for lack of anything better.”
But we know #1 approached a Mach 1. ”…the audio tapes disclose that the first F-04 made its approach at Mach 1.”
(http://www.narcap.org/reports/006/narcap_radcat_textwebsite_MShough_12-8-02.pdf)
I don’t personally have access to the audio tapes but the above website obviously did have access to the tapes and Maccabee mentions Iranian newspapers that report various bits from the tapes, so they were not completely unavailable – but who knows about where they are now - at the DIA perhaps?
As for the take off speeds. Again I reiterate. We have the “man on the ground” (electronics engineer Henry) telling us that the jets took of WITH afterburners - and also that was a “rare” occurrence.
There were indeed three separate “beeper” incidents (as I outlined in my previous post). Since the UFO was in the area AND you say that the legitimate beepers transmit on a specific frequency AND that was slightly different to the frequency of the “beeper” picked up, THEN it could not have been a legitimate beeper and THEREFORE probably something to do with the UFO.
Blame Maccabee? For not mentioning a list of extant F-4 bases? What HAVE you got against the guy? I however DID post such a list of F-4 bases which showed neither Babolsar (the town) or Babol sar (the nearby airfield) as one of them.
Yes, the F-4 IS “technically” radar blind in the rear, but since your statements we have discovered the RWR and the cockpit and canopy mirrors that could have been used as aids. It is therefore possible for the pilot (using all the information available to him) to then to report estimated ranges as he did.
Again you claim the pilot should have acted as if his avionics were NOT out of action. However, I contend that “inverting” the jet in such a situation is something the pilot most certainly would NOT have wanted to do! Remember he is an experienced pilot and “inverting” into a dive on a very dark night without avionics (including no communication with the tower OR with his backseater) is inviting immediate disorientation – NO THANKS says the pilot! Surely you can see that.
You stated:
"Using only this document, IRANIAN JET CASE.doc..."
I refuse to deliberately blind myself to potentially clarifying information about the case if it exists by restricting myself to a single documentary source (excellent though it is). If you have some sort of beef with Dr. Maccabee, then take it up with him, but this forum is open to ALL the evidence available.
Belz...
Fiend God
Say, Ramjet, do you think you could take a minute of your time to finally read and understand my point about burden of evidence and post to show that you get it ? Thanks.
Thus he could have known something was behind him PLUS using the mirrors available (remember he is an experience pilot - a squadron commander) it would have been possible for him to estimate the ranges as he did. Not saying his estimated ranges are accurate...but he DID know the initial distance between them (25nm) and he knew his own speed and he would have seen the closing rate of the trailing object (plus I seem to remember that the RWR can tell you if an object IS closing or not), so he provided range estimates. So NOT impossible to report as he did.
I am providing evidence to support my hypotheses. What are YOU providing?
Belz...
Fiend God
I said "Say, Ramjet, do you think you could take a minute of your time to finally read and understand my point about burden of evidence and post to show that you get it ? Thanks."
Your response shows that you haven't. Please do so now.
Rogue River: UFO
Tehran incident: "alien" UFO
Next case: "Alien" beings.
The Father Gill - Papua New Guinea UFO (26-28 Jun 1959)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/gillinterview.html)
(http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1998/jan/gill.html)
(http://ufos.about.com/od/bestufocasefiles/p/papua.htm)
(http://www.paranormalinsight.com/rev-william-gills-ufo-encounter/)
Just building the evidence base.
Sledge
Grammaton Cleric
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- Oct 4, 2009
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- 7,114
How would that work? The RWR detects radar emissions. Are you saying this UFO was emitting radar signals?
How do you estimate the range to a light in the dark?
People have reported being chased by Jupiter.
BTW: you have discovered the rear radar detector, and mirrors, Puddle Duck had already considered and dismissed them as a mean of range measuring.
At poor visibility, with an unknown object and a limited field of vision.... you're joking.
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