9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[9/11-investigator]

Regarding Treblinka, I quite like this thread on another forum. Lots of sourced information from various places, discussing the death camp there.

One should note that the SS Commander at Treblinka, Kurt Franz, has been quoted as saying (in 1998 of all things) this:

"I cannot say how many Jews in total were gassed in Treblinka. On average each day a large train arrived. Sometimes there were even two. This however was not so common."

"In Treblinka I was commander of the Ukrainian guard unit as I had been in Belzec. In Treblinka as in Belzec the unit consisted of sixty to eighty men. The Ukrainians' main task was to man the guard posts around the camp perimeter. After the uprising in August 1943 I ran the camp more or less single-handedly for a month; however, during that period no gassings were undertaken."

"It was during that period that the original camp was demolished. Everything was leveled off off and lupins were planted..."



Source:Klee, E., W. Dressen, V. Riess. The Good Old Days. New York: The Free Press, NY, 1988.

The Hofle Telegram also provides some firm evidence, taken directly from the Nazis, of how many Jews had been gassed at Treblinka.

http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/kurt_stangl.jpg
Kurt Franz and Stangl outside a barrack in Treblinka Both men taking a well deserved break from killing 870,000 people in 13 months time, that's 2000 per day on average, including burying a huge pit, dumping the 870,000 bodies into it (the equivalent of the entire city of Amsterdam), closing the pit and later reopening the pit, getting the bodies out again (yuck), putting them on large constructions made of railway rails, collecting firewood from the surrounding woods, burning them all and putting the ash back into the pit (layer of 1 meter thick) in such a manner that (layer upon layer) future Australian neo-nazi smarties will be able to carry out GPR tests which will prove that nothing much happened in Treblinka on the extermination front. And this all with only 60 men as Uzzy is so friendly to inform us.

Here we have further proof that this happened this way: http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Images/Treblinka1.gif

Says jewishgen: One of the very rare photographic document of Treblinka:
prisoners of the "Straflager" preparing a pyre for the burning of the victims. Look at the smiling faces with which these Jewish prisoners fullfill their gruesome task of carrying a city of Amsterdam equivalent number of decaying corpses out of a pit and burn them on some sort of rack.

""In Treblinka I was commander of the Ukrainian guard unit as I had been in Belzec. In Treblinka as in Belzec the unit consisted of sixty to eighty men. The Ukrainians' main task was to man the guard posts around the camp perimeter. After the uprising in August 1943 I ran the camp more or less single-handedly for a month; however, during that period no gassings were undertaken.""

What does this mean? Is he saying that while he was in Treblinka no gassings took place?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Interesting quote: "First of all, it ought to be stressed that Broszat‘s claim that “the large extermination camps in the occupied Polish territories” were “carefully hidden” is blatant nonsense. Auschwitz was situated in an industrial zone swarming with civilian workers, and the prisoners constantly were coming into contact with them; Majdanek directly bordered on the city of Lublin, so that from their houses at the edge of the city people were able to look into the camp; in Treblinka, the farmers cultivated their fields almost directly up to the fencing of the camp, and the brisk trade, already described by former inmates, between the prisoners and the civilian population guaranteed a steady flow of information from the camp into the outside world."

So the prisoners to their own admission were able to communicate, even trade, through the fences that surrounded Treblinka, where allegedly every day on average 2,000 people were killed for a period of 13 months.

page 163, http://vho.org/dl/ENG/t.pdf

Would you not agree that within a few weeks the whole world would know about it what was going on in Treblinka? Or that the Ukrainian guards would even allow these exchanges to happen? Reason: nothing much happened. Treblinka was a buffer, a logistical hub, a transition camp. There was no crematory; reason: there was no extermination going on.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Uzzy refers to the testimony of Kurt Franz in the Duesseldorf trial of 1964-65.

Interesting observation from the same Graf/Mattogno book about Treblinka:

Yet whoever studies the ‘Holocaust’ literature very soon recognizes that this is based upon court verdicts to a decisive degree: for example, in the chapter devoted to the ‘extermination centers,’ in his three-volume ‘standard work’ The Destruction of the European Jews, R. Hilberg cites Adalbert Rückerl‘ s NS-Vernichtungslager im Spiegel deutscher Strafprozesse as a source no fewer than forty-one times. Under these circumstances, the actual purpose of the countless trials of the ‘Nazi criminals’ conducted in West Germany emerges quite clearly: they served to retrospectively conjure up the desired evidence for million-fold murder in gas chambers on the basis of eyewitness narratives and confessions by alleged culprits, evidence, which historiography was unable to produce and has not been able to produce right down to the present day, due to the lack of documents and material traces. Hilberg and his consorts were then able to refer to the results of these criminal trials in their accounts of the ‘Holocaust.’

In view of the eminent political significance of the trials as outlined here, a former SS-man sitting in the dock, who wanted a chance at an acquittal or at least a lenient sentence, would naturally not be permitted to dispute the image of the concentration camp as portrayed in the charges, but rather at most deny his own personal guilt or, in case the witnesses incriminated him too much, would claim that he had to follow orders. Even if it is correct, what Rückerl writes on p. 25, that the defendants have “without exception admitted their participation in the killing of Jewish men, women and children, conducted on an industrial scale in the camps named,”482 then this can easily be explained as having been done for opportunistic reasons: if an accused defendant did not do this, then this was interpreted as ‘obstinate denial’ and resulted in a harsher sentence. On the other hand, if a defendant played along with the scenario of the charges, he or she could hope for leniency, however terrible the charges against him might be.

Translation: Germany was (and is) an occupied country. The victors of WW2 had decided during the Nuremberg show trial that Germany had carried out a genocidal program against the Jews. Fortunately the evil Germans had been stopped by the notorious noble allies, the same ones who carried out the trial and came to the verdict. Within that setting it was no longer possible to ask questions about what had really happened and the subsequent endless array of trials in post-war Germany were only used to confirm and strengthen the NMT invented picture. There were enough career opportunists in the German judiciary to play along.

So there was Kurt Franz, probably a sadistic POS low-life anyway, who was hoping for some leniency and decided to not deny the general picture that was painted.

In footnote 482 Kurt Franz denied any wrong doings personally, invalidating Uzzy's selective Wikipedia quote: Kurt Franz, the main defendant at the trial of 1964/1965, repudiated any guilt on his own part, so that Rückerl’s claim is invalid at least in his case.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Codoh yesterday had a link to a Chinese article from 2006:

http://english.cri.cn/706/2006/05/08/[email protected]

It's the usual smoke and mirror's. Title:

Germany Updates Official List of Jews Killed in Holocaust

Germany on Monday published a new list of names of all the known German Jews murdered in the Holocaust in the Second World War as an update to a list with only victims from former West Germany published 20 years ago.

Now finally some proof, the reader might think. Wrong:

The four-volume book, containing 150,000 names in alphabetical order along with vital data and dates of detention, now includes the names of Jews who had lived in eastern Germany and parts of modern-day Poland which were controlled by Germany before the Second World War.

Repetition of the eternal mantra: The Nazis invaded much of Europe and killed an estimated six million European Jews.

Further on: The new list contains a complete list of the mass "deportations" from pre-war Germany, Austria and three parts of the modern Czech Republic -- the Sudetenland, Bohemia and Moravia.


Note the word deportations between quotes. Between quotes since we all know what really happened, don't we. So here we have a list of 150,000 Jews who in all likelyhood were indeed detained. But then it stops. Where did these people go? Did they survive? Did they end up in the US, Palestine, Soviet-Union after the war? After all the world is full of holocaust survivors.

 

[Maja]

Hilberg ignores the gas chambers and starts rambling about the Einsatzgruppen, who were basically mopping up communist partisans and commisars, who very often happened to be Jews.

1. Hilberg was not changing the subject by talking about the Einsatzgruppen. The attorney didn't ask him specifically about gas chambers; he asked him about documents proving the deliberate murder of Jews.
2. I do not accept your definition of the task of the Einsatzgruppen. The fact that the systematic killing of Jews was one of their main tasks has been proven not only by the testimonies of witnesses and of Nazi officers at the Nuremberg trials -- evidence you refuse to take into account -- but also by official Nazi documents, apparently the only kind of evidence you respect. This is just one of the examples, showing clearly that the Jews that were killed were civilians:

Without contacting me, the Army Rear Zone Command liquidated 10,000 Jews, whose systematic elimination had in any case been planned by us. In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on July 28 and 29. Of these 6,500 were Russian Jews mainly old men, women and children and the rest Jews incapable of work, who were sent to Minsk in November of last year by order of the Fuehrer, mainly from Vienna, Bruenn, Bremen and Berlin.
Source: http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_HOLocaust/documents/part3/doc187.html

Oh poor Hilberg had all the proof, unfortunately he had forgotten to put them in his briefcase together with his sandwhiches his wife had prepared for him. Of course he could have taken them with him the next day. He didn't.

As I'm sure you know very well, a historian doesn't have to own the documents he/she writes about and carry them to work every day. Historians examine these documents at archives and have to properly cite them in their work, so that other historians are able to verify their sources. Hilberg has done that in his historical work.

He was an expert witness at Zundel's trial, not an attorney. Witnesses do not produce evidence at trials.

 

[Amazer]

Codoh yesterday had a link to a Chinese article from 2006:

http://english.cri.cn/706/2006/05/08/[email protected]

It's the usual smoke and mirror's. Title:

Germany Updates Official List of Jews Killed in Holocaust

Germany on Monday published a new list of names of all the known German Jews murdered in the Holocaust in the Second World War as an update to a list with only victims from former West Germany published 20 years ago.

Now finally some proof, the reader might think. Wrong:

The four-volume book, containing 150,000 names in alphabetical order along with vital data and dates of detention, now includes the names of Jews who had lived in eastern Germany and parts of modern-day Poland which were controlled by Germany before the Second World War.

Repetition of the eternal mantra: The Nazis invaded much of Europe and killed an estimated six million European Jews.

Could it be because it's true and it really happened?

Further on: The new list contains a complete list of the mass "deportations" from pre-war Germany, Austria and three parts of the modern Czech Republic -- the Sudetenland, Bohemia and Moravia.


Note the word deportations between quotes. Between quotes since we all know what really happened, don't we. So here we have a list of 150,000 Jews who in all likelyhood were indeed detained. But then it stops. Where did these people go? Did they survive? Did they end up in the US, Palestine, Soviet-Union after the war? After all the world is full of holocaust survivors.

I think most of us here know what happened to them... it's up to you to provide evidence to the contrary. We'll patiently wait.

 

[Trojan]

Codoh yesterday had a link to a Chinese article from 2006:

http://english.cri.cn/706/2006/05/08/[email protected]

It's the usual smoke and mirror's. Title:

Germany Updates Official List of Jews Killed in Holocaust

Germany on Monday published a new list of names of all the known German Jews murdered in the Holocaust in the Second World War as an update to a list with only victims from former West Germany published 20 years ago.

Now finally some proof, the reader might think. Wrong:

The four-volume book, containing 150,000 names in alphabetical order along with vital data and dates of detention, now includes the names of Jews who had lived in eastern Germany and parts of modern-day Poland which were controlled by Germany before the Second World War.

Repetition of the eternal mantra: The Nazis invaded much of Europe and killed an estimated six million European Jews.

Further on: The new list contains a complete list of the mass "deportations" from pre-war Germany, Austria and three parts of the modern Czech Republic -- the Sudetenland, Bohemia and Moravia.


Note the word deportations between quotes. Between quotes since we all know what really happened, don't we. So here we have a list of 150,000 Jews who in all likelyhood were indeed detained. But then it stops. Where did these people go? Did they survive? Did they end up in the US, Palestine, Soviet-Union after the war? After all the world is full of holocaust survivors.

You did catch the part these are German Jews only -- does not include Jews from Poland, France, etc.

 

[Uzzy]

He was killed in the infamous gas chamber. Obviously he died but not a shred of evidence that that happened in a gas chamber together with millions of others.

4. and so on...

Quite, except for the eyewitness testimony, confessions from guards and commanders, discrepancies between the number of Jews shipped to camps and the numbers found when they were liberated, and of course the evidence of the camps themselves. You'll complain about Hoess, no doubt, but given that his testimony matches pretty well with the testimony of Pery Broad, an SS-Unterscharfuehrer at the camps. Either way, I've given you the names of actual people transported to the death camps, who died there.

 

[Simon39759]

You are not very attentive. Read #2951:

Any other opinion would brand this expert as a holocaust denier, basically a career killer.

Oh! What a conveniently unfalsifiable assessment!

I propose that we close the Krege subject as everything has been said about it.

- I say that it is nearly impossible to do anything wrong in this simple research.
- You say that it is unproven that he was qualified to do the job and that there is no peer-reviewed report.

Unless somebody (like me) comes up with a new point of view I stop answering future questions as everything has been said about it.

Yes.
-You (more than a little bit arrogantly) assert that a task you have absolutely zero familiarity with is easy.
-I say it probably is not and that if, as you assert, Krege was chosen for his expertise in the field, this expertise should be easy to demonstrate by pointing to other circumstances (unrelated to Holocaust research that you dogmatically assess, without evidence, would not be published because of some academic conspiracy) when he demonstrated this expertise (ie academic papers using this technique).

You now abandon this discussion, implicitly admitting defeat on that particular subject.


It is noted. Now... WHERE DID THE 6 MILLIONS MISSING JEWS GO? HELL; WHERE DID THE 12 MILLIONS VICTIMS GO?

Six million is a pretty big city already. 12 is a about the size of the greater London metropolitain area.
That A LOT of villages.
I mean, not until the 60ies each was the whole of Isreal's population (Jews and Palestinian together) equal to one fourth of that.
So, we lost four Israels' worth of population during the war. Where did they go?

Where are the cities they now hide in to further their pretended lies?
Where are the hundred of villages?

Where are they?

 

[Uzzy]

http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/kurt_stangl.jpg
Kurt Franz and Stangl outside a barrack in Treblinka Both men taking a well deserved break from killing 870,000 people in 13 months time, that's 2000 per day on average, including burying a huge pit, dumping the 870,000 bodies into it (the equivalent of the entire city of Amsterdam), closing the pit and later reopening the pit, getting the bodies out again (yuck), putting them on large constructions made of railway rails, collecting firewood from the surrounding woods, burning them all and putting the ash back into the pit (layer of 1 meter thick) in such a manner that (layer upon layer) future Australian neo-nazi smarties will be able to carry out GPR tests which will prove that nothing much happened in Treblinka on the extermination front. And this all with only 60 men as Uzzy is so friendly to inform us.

Here we have further proof that this happened this way: http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Images/Treblinka1.gif

Says jewishgen: One of the very rare photographic document of Treblinka:
prisoners of the "Straflager" preparing a pyre for the burning of the victims. Look at the smiling faces with which these Jewish prisoners fullfill their gruesome task of carrying a city of Amsterdam equivalent number of decaying corpses out of a pit and burn them on some sort of rack.



What does this mean? Is he saying that while he was in Treblinka no gassings took place?

Progress! It seems like you accept Treblinka as a death camp. I'd point out that the work at Treblinka was mostly carried out by 700 Sonderkommando Jews, watched over between 80-120 guards, who were in turn watched over by around 20 SS officers. I'd also point out that the SS-Obersturmführer Franz Stangl admitted to the killings at Treblinka in his own trial. And you've not addressed the Hofle Telegram either.

 

[TSR]

Any other opinion would brand this expert as a holocaust denier, basically a career killer.

,
Really? Then why is Krege still employed?
,

 

[Toke]

,
Really? Then why is Krege still employed?
,

For all we know he is pursuing a career as janitor at the institute of earth sciences.

 

[Trojan]

Any other opinion would brand this expert as a holocaust denier, basically a career killer.

Notice how easy it is to deny evidence for the denier. Not only do witnesses lie, now experts also lie.

A look at the video reveals that not much expertise is needed to operate the thing. Anybody could do it, maybe even you. Nobody needs to be an 'expert photographer' in order to make nice pictures anyway. GPR same thing.

Statement spoken from ignorance.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I propose that we close the Krege subject as everything has been said about it.

- I say that it is nearly impossible to do anything wrong in this simple research.

- You say

1) He was not qualified,
2) He didn't have his raw GPR footage analysed by any university
3) He didn't have his ( tree age) dendochronology analysed by any university
4) He reached a conclusion about gold teeth without the equipment to do so
5) He did not do seismic tests, metal detector tests or lay down control hole to allow him to compare soil and ash.
6) He did not lay down a grid pattern for review,
7) He failed to notice all work done by earlier excavations and indeed the camp's buildings which were removed.
8) A real technician correctly states that GPR must be done in 3D grids imaging analysis to see "shapes"
9) He never published his report allowing peer scrutiny

Unless somebody (like me) comes up with a new point of view I stop answering future questions as everything has been said about it.

No thanks. You haven't actually read the Krege report so it is a bit silly asking you any questions. You said Krege was not looking for gold teeth although that was his specific conclusion.

I will add

1) However according to British historian Alan Heath, Krege did not have permission from the authorities in Warsaw, Siedlce nor in Treblinka itself[citation needed]. This led this historian to assume that Krege either never visited Treblinka at all or was at the site only for a very short time for a video of the scanning to be taken. This opinion is further supported by the fact that Fredrick Töben, director of the Adelaide Institute which funded Krege's team, did not present the findings at the Iranian Holocaust Conference which he attended in December 2006.


2) Krege has not only failed to publish his findings but also has failed to respond to questions as to the actual dates of his alleged visits to Treblinka and Bełżec nor challenges to visit the site with qualified scientists




.

 

[Belz...]

You accuse, you prove.
Where is your proof for the gas chambers?
Aha, I see, you don't have any.

Of course not, since you don't consider what anybody else would consider evidence to be such. You have your own standard for the burden of proof, one that's impossible to meet.

 

[Belz...]

The trial where the greatest mass murderers of history, the Soviets, sat on the side of the prosecution next to city nuking Americans?

I don't know about you guys but I smell tu quoque...

 

[Think_Tank]

"In Treblinka I was commander of the Ukrainian guard unit as I had been in Belzec. In Treblinka as in Belzec the unit consisted of sixty to eighty men. The Ukrainians' main task was to man the guard posts around the camp perimeter. After the uprising in August 1943 I ran the camp more or less single-handedly for a month; however, during that period no gassings were undertaken."

What does this mean? Is he saying that while he was in Treblinka no gassings took place?

Is he saying that? Is he bollocks.

He's referring to the single month in which he "ran the camp more or less single-handedly", in the aftermath of the uprising.

Your attempts to twist statements to fit your own views are staggering.

 

[Nonpareil]

Translation: Germany was (and is) an occupied country.

Wat

The victors of WW2 had decided during the Nuremberg show trial that Germany had carried out a genocidal program against the Jews.

Yes, because the evidence supported that conclusion.

Fortunately the evil Germans had been stopped by the notorious noble allies, the same ones who carried out the trial and came to the verdict.

Yep.

Within that setting it was no longer possible to ask questions about what had really happened and the subsequent endless array of trials in post-war Germany were only used to confirm and strengthen the NMT invented picture.

Nope.

There were enough career opportunists in the German judiciary to play along.

So there was Kurt Franz, probably a sadistic POS low-life anyway,

Argument ad hominem.

who was hoping for some leniency

Bare assertion.

and decided to not deny the general picture that was painted.

Because it was true.

9/11-investigator is quite obviously performing the Avalanche Dodge. He's attempting to snow us - or, at least, those of us who can still argue against him - under with too many articles, derails, falsities and fallacies that we can't possibly debunk them all, as there are only 24 hours in a day. At this point, though, all his arguments are the same old repeats of earlier ones, which have been dealt with previously in this thread. He's hoping that we won't notice.
This argument is over. We won.

Victory!

 

[Trojan]

A look at the video reveals that not much expertise is needed to operate the thing. Anybody could do it, maybe even you. Nobody needs to be an 'expert photographer' in order to make nice pictures anyway. GPR same thing.

Ignorance is bliss - note, the below is from 2007 -- imagine how much more difficult this may have been in 1999!

http://hsx.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/11/1/15

Using Ground-Penetrating Radar to Locate Clandestine Graves of Homicide Victims
Forming Forensic Archaeology Partnerships With Law Enforcement
John J. Schultz
University of Central Florida, Orlando

Ground-penetrating radar (GPR) has become an important forensic archaeology tool used by law enforcement agencies to search for buried bodies of homicide victims. However, these agencies most often secure outside consultants to perform searches because of equipment expense and the specialized training required to operate the equipment and interpret results. This article provides a thorough discussion of GPR methodology and implementation of this technology by law enforcement agencies for clandestine body searches. The discussion provides investigators with basic knowledge of the GPR process, enabling an understanding of how the equipment is used to search for buried bodies and how investigators can secure the services of a properly trained GPR operator. Benefits of forming forensic archaeology partnerships between law enforcement agencies and academic forensic practitioners to secure GPR equipment are also discussed, with the recently established partnership between the University of Central Florida and the Orange County Sheriff’s Office as an example.

 

[Toke]

Trojan,
You make GPR sound way more complicated than one of those disposable cameras.