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My take on why indeed the study of consciousness may not be as simple

Perhaps the problem here is that people think my argument is too close to arguments used by some religious people.

Religious argument:

(1) God designed sex as means of reproduction.
(2) Therefore any sort of sex which doesn't lead to reproduction should be viewed as wrong.
(3) Therefore homosexuality is wrong.

My argument:

(1) Human bodies and behaviour were either wholly or partly "designed" by evolutionary processes which themselves are driven by DNA trying to replicate itself.
(2) Therefore behaviours which are being driven by DNA but not resulting in the correct outcome should be viewed as processes which have gone wrong.
(3) Therefore any sort of sex which doesn't lead to succesful reproduction should be viewed as a process gone wrong.
(4) Therefore homosexuality can be viewed as a biological process which has gone wrong.

The bolded statements do bear some resemblance to each other, but the arguments they appear in are fundamentally different to each other because they start with completely different premises both about the nature of biological "design" and the reason why human beings exist in the first place. My ethics are completely different to those of a homophobic Abrahamic theist.
 
I equated them only in the sense that both are sexual behaviour which is "wrong" from the point of view of biological process. I did not say they were the same in all ways.



I didn't start from that point. It was in the middle of the argument.

Of course it wasn't at the beginning of the entire discussion. But it did come before the serious arguments about reproductive fitness even began, and looking back through the thread, this can really be seen. So again, why would anyone have said this? What's the point? For one thing, it's several zillion light-years from being a neutral example of how sexual behavior somehow doesn't contribute to passing on the DNA; for another, it obviously doesn't make the distinction between behavior and orientation.


It just happens to be a true story, and one of the most character-forming experiences of my life. I was the first person who this person came out to. He was my best mate at school and we were both 15 at the time. His homosexuality never bothered me. The character-forming experience was about the devastating impact of suicide on the family and friends of the person who commits suicide. I have often had suicidal thoughts myself, but any idea of actually acting on them is prevented by first-hand knowledge of the consequences of that act for other people.

I meant what I said; I don't doubt that it's a true story. And I don't want to minimize the impact of that friendship for you. But "some of my best friends are x" is not a good example to bring up when a transplanted Northerner is around, because I've lived in the South for a long time and I know that line of thinking very well, and it has personal meaning for me too. I wish you could see how it still gets dragged out all the time around here, and the kind of segregation that people try to justify.
 
Of course it wasn't at the beginning of the entire discussion. But it did come before the serious arguments about reproductive fitness even began, and looking back through the thread, this can really be seen.

This is silly, Maia. My original claim was that human beings have the inherent purpose of reproducing. THAT is where this started, and it already at that point was a claim which was committed to a "selfiish gene" view of what a human being actually is. ETA: I'm not even sure that I even hold this view of what a human being actually is, since I'm not a materialistic, deterministic atheist anymore. However, it is the prevailing view on this board, is it not?

So again, why would anyone have said this? What's the point?

The point is that it logically follows from my original claim. I'm not sure it was even me who first mentioned homosexuality - somebody-else did in response to my original claim that human beings exist in order to reproduce. You can read all the hidden agendas you like into that, it doesn't mean they actually exist anywhere but in your own mind. :(

I have no particularly strong views about homosexuality. I am just defending my original claim that the primary purpose and reason that humans exist is to reproduce, which was in response to a claim that humans have no inherent purpose.
 
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(1) Human bodies and behaviour were either wholly or partly "designed" by evolutionary processes which themselves are driven by DNA trying to replicate itself.
(2) Therefore behaviours which are being driven by DNA but not resulting in the correct outcome should be viewed as processes which have gone wrong.
(3) Therefore any sort of sex which doesn't lead to succesful reproduction should be viewed as a process gone wrong.
(4) Therefore homosexuality can be viewed as a biological process which has gone wrong.
If societies with some percentage of non reproducing members are more succesful than societies without such members then the existence of such individuals can't be said to be wrong (see ants and termites).

Dawkins argues in The Selfish Gene that homosexuality could be an ESS allowing for more caregivers to help raise offspring. In Becoming Human (part 2, I think) the theory is advanced that humans are more likely to adopt and care for non related offspring than non-humans.

(3) Therefore any sort of sex which doesn't lead to succesful reproduction should be viewed as a process gone wrong.
Bonobos engage in signficant amounts of non-reproductive sex. I've never heard the proposition advanced that this is a process gone wrong. On the contrary, Bonobos are far less violent than chimps and lead what would seem to be more calm and peaceful lives. Now, this is only corelation but it's hard to claim that the practice is detrimental to the replication of genes and DNA.

I think you have a much larger burden to demonstrate that non-reproductive sex is always an example of a biological process gone wrong than to simply point out that non-reproductive sex leads to non-reproduction. It's a bit more complicated than that I think.
 
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Maia,

Perhaps it would help to put this into some context? My own views are driven both by a good understanding of biology and evolution and a sort of nihilistic mysticism. I believe there is a spiritual dimension to human existence and I believe in some sort of free will and some sort of teleological aspect to evolution, especially the evolution of consciousness. But I also believe that there is no "spiritual point" to human existence - that spirituality is not the goal or reason for human existence. We just ARE. In order to understanding why we are the way we are I think it is necessary to view human behaviour through this sort of "selfish gene" perspective. Even though I think we are capable of applying free will to overcome our evolutionarily-derived behaviour, it is nevertheless the baseline from which we all start - it is what we have to overcome if we want to become more than mere biological machines. This purely biological view of a human is not the only valid way to look at it (IMO), but it is a necessary way of looking at it - neccesary if you are to stand any chance of understanding what humans really are. Reproduction is still at the very centre of our culture. For most people, the most important thing they live for is their children. I am acutely aware of this, because I often get involved in debates about overpopulation and those debates tend to provoke extreme, irrational, emotional responses from many people. The idea that things like having children and economic growth could be viewed as bad things is totally alien to most people.

Geoff
 
If societies with some percentage of non reproducing members are more succesful than societies without such members then the existence of such individuals can't be said to be wrong (see ants and termites).

Randfan, we've already been through this. Please read the thread...

Dawkins argues in The Selfish Gene that homosexuality could be an ESS allowing for more caregivers to help raise offspring. In Becoming Human (part 2, I think) the theory is advanced that humans are more likely to adopt and care for non related offspring than non-humans.

I still don't see what this actually has to do with homosexuality - the evidence is just not there to support this theory.

I think you have a much larger burden to demonstrate that non-reproductive sex is always an example of a biological process gone wrong than to simply point out that non-reproductive sex leads to non-reproduction. It's a bit more complicated than that I think.

Of course it is more complicated than that.
 
Even though I think we are capable of applying free will to overcome our evolutionarily-derived behaviour, it is nevertheless the baseline from which we all start - it is what we have to overcome if we want to become more than mere biological machines.
I'm more than happy to be a mere biological machine.

Life, love and the desire to understand the natural world around me is all I need as a baseline.

 
My ethics are completely different to those of a homophobic Abrahamic theist.

Yeah, but you have to admit that it's a huge timesaver to be able to pigeonhole someone and skip the arguments. It's amazing how often this board offers variations on the Ad Hominem fallacy. "He's a theist, therefore his ideas contain hidden flaws and should be ignored".
 
Randfan, we've already been through this. Please read the thread...
I don't need to read the thread. The point stands.

I still don't see what this actually has to do with homosexuality - the evidence is just not there to support this theory.
It has explanatory power. We do know that families with additional help rearing young have an advantage. Your proposition is not falsifiable. Dawkins' is. You simply assert something by fiat.

I would also point out the Nazca Booby and other similar species. The Nazca Booby has a clutch of two eggs. If both hatch the oldest sibling kills the other. This might at first seem to be an example of a biological process gone wrong but we now understand that it is an ESS.
 
It's actually quite hard to tell from those photos, but yes it does look bigger. I'm having trouble following who is on which side of the argument here...

It's not a matter of which side one is on. It's a matter of actual fact. I thought it would be a handy shortcut to have actual baby pictures, rather than arguing the theoretical aspect of something that can very easily be verified.
 
Yeah, but you have to admit that it's a huge timesaver to be able to pigeonhole someone and skip the arguments. It's amazing how often this board offers variations on the Ad Hominem fallacy. "He's a theist, therefore his ideas contain hidden flaws and should be ignored".
You let me know when someone makes this fallacy and I'll join you in ridiculing them. Then again, you could just be engaging in a straw man.
 
You let me know when someone makes this fallacy and I'll join you in ridiculing them. Then again, you could just be engaging in a straw man.

Why are we even arguing about this?

From UE's history on this forum, we know he/she is a closet theist who feels certain things are absolutely right and wrong.

That seems fairly clear to me, but I dare say it can be explained away if required.
 
That seems fairly clear to me, but I dare say it can be explained away if required.
Thanks, I would take exception to this. I don't think it happens as much as you do and I would make a Tu Quoque argument if I were inclined (the problem has to do with people and not atheists). I'll withdraw the straw man aspersion.
 
It is wrong in the functional sense that follows from the original claim that the reason that human beings exist is in order to allow human DNA to replicate. It's a Dawkinsian view - the idea being that the primary organism is the DNA itself and the human form simply being a means for those genes to replicate themselves.

That is a Dawkinsian view but it says nothing about unhindered DNA replication. And I doubt Dawkins -anywhere- suggests Homosexuality is a process gone wrong?

If you look at it this way then homosexuality is an example of evolved behaviour that is not functioning correctly.

That does not follow.

Human sexuality is partly about bonding rather than procreation - but the bonding (falling in love) is itself evolutionarily-beneficial because it keeps sexual partners together long enough to raise an infant into childhood. It then generally wears off...

Hardly relevant since there are multiple forms of reproductive strategy that works just as well. And do you have any information to suggest Homosexual partners bond any less than Heteros?

No, but in this case you aren't talking about instinctive, evolved behaviour but something quite different: the intentional, wilful overcoming of instinctive, evolved behaviour.

So how do you explain it amongst Skinnerian and Popperian animals said to work upon instinct alone? Are animals being wilful? I think not. Humans are no different.

This is a very special sort of behaviour, probably unique to our species, and any discussion of the reasons behind it is likely to be complicated.

As we have seen it is anything but 'special' behaviour.

It is wrong because, from the POV of the selfish gene, the genes are producing behaviour which is not the behaviour they are supposed to produce and does not have the correct end product.

The selfish gene gets itself replicated by many means -not all of them congruent with what 'should' be right about evolution. The only imperative is that DNA reproduces. if it successfully reproduces or is carried to thenext generation - it works. Homosexuality, is, as we have demonstrated, no hindrance to that direction.

Because he does not actually suceed in producing offspring.


I dont know what you mean by this. if a homosexual has offspring; it counts.

Evolutionary "fitness" is the ability to raise offspring which are themselves capable of succesfully raising offspring. That is the benchmark. No offspring or offspring with shared genes = evolutionary failure.

What has that to do with homosexuality?


Do I have to have a reason to be a Crystal Palace supporter?
It requires a certain, sinister rationale to be a CP supported living in Brighton. Come to think of it, being a Palace supporter is just 'wrong' and an evolutionary dead end.

Well, there's at least another reason and I keep telling you it: it's "wrong" in the sense of reproductive fitness.

And do I need to repeat that this is entirely wrong.

The genes are producing the "wrong" behaviour from their point of view.

This mioght have some credence if you could demonstrate that homosexuality breeds homosexuality, which we know it does not. Homosexuality would be an extinction event. But i know you arent claiming queens make queens. Are you? I cannot see how your statement about genes producing 'wrong' behaviour would make sense otherwise.

This is the exact opposite of a religiously-motivated view, which views it as "wrong" because it explicitly views humans in terms of their biology and completely ignores any spiritual or ethical aspect to the issue.

Then suppose, without any religious, ethical or moral value, homosexuality would not be an issue of any note. Biologists explain it amongst other strategies but I never heard any say it was something going 'wrong'. That is your explanation. I think few would agree with it.

You can't get much less religious than viewing humans as nothing more than hunks of flesh and bone whose sole purpose is to reproduce human DNA.

But you seem to view a certain sexual proclivity of a few bags of flesh and bones as worthy of being 'wrong' there fore the rest are 'right'. It is apparently, demonstratively and observationally natural to virtually all species. it has survived and flourished, it has not diluted nor has it gone extinct as most 'wrong' ideas do. It clearly demonstrates no debar to reproduction - for all you know active homosexuals may have more children than the average family - but they are not dead ends and therefore a good way to promote DNA and preserve and protect existing DNA. I just don't get (and I expect few others do) where you are coming from suggesting there is something, somewhere , going wrong.

That doesn't follow. You have said yourself that they have to get "creative" in order to actually succeed in reproducing. This is their way of trying to put right what has gone wrong.

Wow. I would suggest you take a look back over what you just wrote. This is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin. I will say however that 'getting creative' is necessary for heteros too. Infertility clinics anyone? it has nothing to do with homosexuality but, at least, I think we see what you really mean about Homosexuality being 'wrong'.
 
UE, I can respect what you're saying about your views, but I still have to say that there seems to be something weird going on when it comes to the issue of homosexuality here based on what you've said earlier. A statement of your position, which is what you said in your first post, is not the same thing as an argument. That's what develops over time and as a result of responding to the posts of others, and we did get some very strange things that way.

The first post where things began to get odd:

Just because some characteristic or behaviour has no selective advantage does not lead to the conclusion that it is the result of intelligent design. Cancer has no selective advantage either. Sometimes things go wrong.

Why is homosexuality being equated with cancer?

Then:

It is simply the normal human sexual drive which has for some reason gone a bit wrong. There are many other ways that it can go a bit wrong...I don't need to list them. None of them are associated with group selection and the passing on of genes.

Why contrast homosexuality with a "normal" sexual drive? Why say that it's gone "wrong"? Why use pejorative terms if you're only trying to make a neutral point about reproduction here?

Then:

You could make exactly the same argument regarding, say, beastiality. Why do some humans want to have sex with animals? Well, it's so they can help help raise their siblings offspring, of course! The argument doesn't work...
Again, anyone would know that using the example of bestiality is extremely pejorative. Why use that kind of comparison for homosexuality instead of something much more neutral?

When asked why you think homosexuality is something that “went wrong”, well, here’s what we got:

In the sense that it is a "misfiring" natural behaviour. There is an obvious reason why (most) humans have a strong sex drive. It is there to drive us to reproduce. Sometimes humans become sexually attracted to the "wrong" thing - members of their own sex, animals, dead bodies, inflicting pain or experiencing pain, and in at least one recorded case a white mini metro. I'd say all these are examples of a natural behaviour that has gone wrong.
And then in the same vein we got:

What about people who believe they have born the wrong sex? Anything "gone wrong" there? What about the young man who became sexually-obsessed with his mini metro car? Where do you draw the line, or do you consider all of these things to be "normal".

There is a very distinct tone of judgment here. Otherwise, why ask a question like “where do you draw the line”? But it isn't the main issue. Becoming sexually obsessed with a car is a sexual fetish. (So are bestiality, S/M, and necrophilia, for that matter. And again, why use the fetishes and sexual behaviors that are the most bizarre or that involve nonconsenting partners? Why not talk about shoe fetishes?)But being homosexual or transgendered is an orientation. Transgendered people were a particularly bad example to bring up, because they're usually heterosexual, and there may be nothing different about their sexual preference or behavior from that of any other heterosexual person.
 
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However, human beings are quite unlike most other animals in that they regularly exhibit all different kinds of sexual behaviour when there is no prospect of reproduction. .

And you know this how? I've seen male dogs hump each other. I presumed that they were getting some benefit from it.
 
Yeah, but you have to admit that it's a huge timesaver to be able to pigeonhole someone and skip the arguments. It's amazing how often this board offers variations on the Ad Hominem fallacy. "He's a theist, therefore his ideas contain hidden flaws and should be ignored".

Its more like "He's a theist, therefore any claim that his arguments come from logic rather than subconscious assumptions and/or prejudices should be questioned."

Which, incidentally, is the same sentiment I have towards you. I don't really buy that you are a strong A.I. opponent purely on the basis of logical arguments against it.
 
In terms of a Dawkinsian view of evolution, there is only one type of fitness and that is reproductive fitness.

He isn't talking about humping like rabbits.

He is talking about the ability of a geneset to survive to the next generation.

Failing to reproduce must be negative with respect to evolutionary fitness.

On a geneset scale, yes, obviously.

But what you are ignoring is the fact that genesets are shared by groups.

If one group reproduces really fast, but the other group converts half of its mating males to soldiers instead, and wipes out the first, that purely reproductive advantage doesn't mean squat.

And, guess what -- group selection works. Humans own this planet for a reason, and merely being able to have children quickly isn't it.

This is the group selection argument I originally disputed. For this argument to work, there would need to be a clear connection between homosexuality and the raising of siblings' children. That connection is not clear and may not even exist.

It is not clear whether there is a connection between homosexuality and group fitness.

But what is clear is that group fitness is very important and can completely outweigh raw reproductive capability. Or, if you want to look at it another way, contributes as much to reproductive fitness as any other factor, such as sex drive.

Not all "features" are genetically-desirable.

Yet, if they exist after numerous generations, there is a reason they haven't been evolved out.
 
I don't need to read the thread. The point stands.

It has explanatory power. We do know that families with additional help rearing young have an advantage. Your proposition is not falsifiable. Dawkins' is. You simply assert something by fiat.

I would also point out the Nazca Booby and other similar species. The Nazca Booby has a clutch of two eggs. If both hatch the oldest sibling kills the other. This might at first seem to be an example of a biological process gone wrong but we now understand that it is an ESS.

That's an example of a biological process working exactly how natural selection normally works. It is a highly effective means of making sure the optimum number of fit offspring survive. It "works" genetically.
 
Hardly relevant since there are multiple forms of reproductive strategy that works just as well. And do you have any information to suggest Homosexual partners bond any less than Heteros?

I'm not claiming that they bond any less. The bonding aspect of it seems to work perfectly well regardless of sexual orientation. This includes the guy who bonded with his mini metro by masturbating around its exhaust pipe.

So how do you explain it amongst Skinnerian and Popperian animals said to work upon instinct alone? Are animals being wilful? I think not. Humans are no different.

Well, I don't agree with that but that is a different argument. I believe that humans are different, not because we have a "spiritual link" that animals don't have, but because we have the unique combination of the spiritual link and highly-advanced cognition. But this is philosophy, not biology...

The selfish gene gets itself replicated by many means -not all of them congruent with what 'should' be right about evolution. The only imperative is that DNA reproduces. if it successfully reproduces or is carried to thenext generation - it works. Homosexuality, is, as we have demonstrated, no hindrance to that direction.

It is for the DNA which belongs to the homosexual in question. Not necessarily a total barrier, but certainly a hindrance.

I dont know what you mean by this. if a homosexual has offspring; it counts.

Not if his homosexuality actually made it harder to have offspring.

It requires a certain, sinister rationale to be a CP supported living in Brighton. Come to think of it, being a Palace supporter is just 'wrong' and an evolutionary dead end.

What?! You do realise that we haven't lost at home since September, right?

Hux, I'm not sure the rest of your post is leading us to any new ground. We are just going over the same points again and again.
 

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