Just what did Darwin say about homosexuality?

[Roboramma]

The reason I say that is because after reading that article, it's pretty clear that animals engage in homosexual behavior for WAY different reasons than we do. They either don't understand what they're doing, or they do it for reasons that actually help their pack/flock/pod/whatever.

How do you go about determining the mental states of animals? Moreover, as was said way upthread, homosexuality may be as adaptive in humans as in other animals.

Humans on the other hand have the mental capacity to make a choice. We prefer one over the other, and some do prefer both.

There's no reason to assume that some animals don't prefer homosexual or hetrosexual sex. The fact that some humans are exclusive in this regard may have more to do with culture than biology.

 

[Furcifer]

Left handedness on the other hand isn't as clear. I'm not sure there are any genetic markers identifying people to that particular predisposition. Without it I'd have to say that left handedness could be considered deviant behavior.

Which has nothing to do with my point. 3bodyproblem views homosexuality as deviant, but left-handedness as not deviant, which, according to the definition you (and earlier he) offered, is inconsistent.

Want to try that again?

Don't worry, I don't blame you. People have been trying to attribute me with saying so many different things it's hard to keep track. Even for me.

 

[MikeSun5]

I was just hoping that you'd come out and say what you think the importance of what you said was.

3bodyproblem was definitely right about one thing...

...only reading what you want to read...

I've already said my statement was a reply to the claim that homosexual animals are a "huge majority."

There's no reason to assume that some animals don't prefer homosexual or hetrosexual sex. The fact that some humans are exclusive in this regard may have more to do with culture than biology.

Okay, now I know you're not reading everything. Read the articles posted by Alan, and come back to the discussion.

 

[Furcifer]

How do you go about determining the mental states of animals? Moreover, as was said way upthread, homosexuality may be as adaptive in humans as in other animals.

No no no, bisexuality, not homosexuality. There's a difference.

 

[Earthborn]

I've already said my statement was a reply to the claim that homosexual animals are a "huge majority."

The claim was that homosexuality existed in a huge majority of animal species. It wasn't about individual animals. If all species of animals had only 1 in a 1000 individuals engaging in any form of homosexual behaviour, the claim would still be true.

 

[Furcifer]

IMO, bisexuality in humans is just being greedy.

Actually I think Sol made a point about bisexuality being the "proper" sexuality, and homo and hetero sexuality being deviants. For the sole purpose of sexuality, bisexuality might be more advantageous. At least in terms of increasing potential candidates. I'm not sure what the number of bisexuals is though? Is that more inline with the numbers we see in the animal community engaging in bisexual behaviour?

 

[Furcifer]

The claim was that homosexuality existed in a huge majority of animal species.

Wait, I thought Alan showed a link that stated it was bisexuality that existed in (what's debatable) a majority of animal species. What species of animals engage in homosexuality?

 

[Alan]

I'm not sure what the number of bisexuals is though?

It depends how you measure it. Sexual arousal, sexual behaviour and other valid ways can give different percentages.

Some different studies, looking at the question in different ways:

4% of men and 2% of women consider themselves homosexual while 5% of men and 3% of women consider themselves bisexual (Janus & Janus, 1993).

In a national survey, 90% of men aged 18-44 considered themselves to be heterosexual, 2.3% as homosexual, 1.8% as bisexual, and 3.9% as 'something else' (Mosher, Chandra, & Jones, 2005).
Among women aged 18-44 in the same survey, 90% said they were heterosexual, 1.3% homosexual, 2.8% bisexual, and 3.8% as 'something else' (Mosher, Chandra, & Jones, 2005).

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html#homosexuality (source for both)

Males:
Kinsey estimated that nearly 46% of the male population had engaged in both heterosexual and homosexual activities, or "reacted to" persons of both sexes, in the course of their adult lives (p. 656, Male). 11.6% of white males (ages 20-35) were given a rating of 3 (about equal heterosexual and homosexual experience/response) on the 7-point Kinsey Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale for this period of their lives (Table 147, p. 651, Male).

Females:
Kinsey found only a very small portion of females with exclusively homosexual histories. He reported that between 6 and 14% of females (ages 20-35) had more than incidental homosexual experience in their histories. (p. 488, Female). 7% of single females (ages 20-35) and 4% of previously married females (ages 20-35) were given a rating of 3 (about equal heterosexual and homosexual experience/response) on the 7-point Kinsey Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale for this period of their lives.(Table 142, p. 499, Female).

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-data.html#bisexuality

Is that more inline with the numbers we see in the animal community engaging in bisexual behaviour?

It varies between species. Bonobos (who are in equal first place along with common chimpanzees as being our closest living non-human relatives) are all bisexual, for example. Others, like common chimpanzees, are lower (I haven't heard of non-heterosexuality among common chimps).

 

[Alan]

Wait, I thought Alan showed a link that stated it was bisexuality that existed in (what's debatable) a majority of animal species. What species of animals engage in homosexuality?

Something doesn't stop being a homosexual act because the individual also engages in a heterosexual act.

 

[Roboramma]

I'm all for calling out bigots, but if you go by any biology book... 3bodyproblem is right about sex. Oral and anal sex are for PLEASURE, not procreation... and in the animal kingdom, sex is about procreation. Forget the buzzwords like "deviance" -- animals that have sex for pleasure are a huge minority. I'm pretty sure that's what he meant when he used the other buzzword (proper) that everyone is freaking out about.

Here you are saying that 3bodyproblem is right about sex, and the evidence you give of that is that "in the animal kingdom, sex is about procreation", and "animals that have sex for pleasure are a huge minority."

I simply asked you why you think the later has anything to do with 3bodyproblem being right about sex. You have failed to address that point.

 

[Roboramma]

When you want to quote stats about gay guys doing anal or straight guys getting pegged by their girlfriends to try and claim it's normal behavior, you're going to have to include all of the other males in all of the other species in your equation to really shut 3bodyproblem's argument down. Unfortunately, when you include the other species, your argument falls to the ground. Like jmcvann's pants in college. (wow, I'm sorry man... lame cheap shot. I don't know where that came from)

And here you suggest that anyone who says that homosexuality is normal behavoir for humans is wrong, because its very uncommon in the animal kingdom. Which makes no more sense than saying that reading books is not normal, because it's very uncommon in the animal kingdom.

 

[Roboramma]

3bodyproblem, I apologize, I mixed up what you said about left-handedness with what you said about red heads:

There is evidence that red hair is genetic, so we can preclude this as deviant.

You can substitute "red headedness" for "left handedness" in my post.

 

[Furcifer]

Something doesn't stop being a homosexual act because the individual also engages in a heterosexual act.

Right. Nor would it make them a homosexual, the correct term would be bisexual.

The act or behaviour does not necessarily define the sexuality. Unless we are talking about bisexuality. Likewise, anal sex, is not necessarily a homosexual act. A man and a woman can engaage in anal sex and have it not be considered homosexual behaviour. Thus speaking of anal sex between a man and a woman is of no relevance when discussing homosexuality. Or do I have that wrong?

 

[Furcifer]

3bodyproblem, I apologize, I mixed up what you said about left-handedness with what you said about red heads:

You can substitute "red headedness" for "left handedness" in my post.

No problem. But in that case I think you'd be wrong. Hair colour isn't a behaviour. No more so than attached ear lobes or being able to roll your tongue.

Although being able to kiss your own elbow might be!

 

[Alan]

Right. Nor would it make them a homosexual, the correct term would be bisexual.

That is the way I look at it, yes.

The thing is, you asked about animals "engaging in homosexuality" (which I interpreted as homosexual acts, not specifying exclusivity).

The act or behaviour does not necessarily define the sexuality. Unless we are talking about bisexuality.

Behaviour doesn't necessarily define sexuality, including with bisexuality.

Likewise, anal sex, is not necessarily a homosexual act. A man and a woman can engaage in anal sex and have it not be considered homosexual behaviour. Thus speaking of anal sex between a man and a woman is of no relevance when discussing homosexuality. Or do I have that wrong?

It's relevant if someone equates anal sex with homosexuality, but otherwise I'd say it's not.

 

[Furcifer]

Which makes no more sense than saying that reading books is not normal, because it's very uncommon in the animal kingdom.

Doesn't the fact that all animals engage in sex negate this? I see where you are trying to go with this, but it falls flat when you consider sex itself is common among all animals.

 

[Roboramma]

Very well:

Left handedness on the other hand isn't as clear. I'm not sure there are any genetic markers identifying people to that particular predisposition. Without it I'd have to say that left handedness could be considered deviant behavior.

bolding mine.

And yet:

We have estimates, for example, of the heritability of sexual orientation in humans, but none that I know of in other animals," he said. "Scientists have also targeted locations on the human genome that may contribute to sexual orientation, but aside from the fruit fly, we have no such detailed knowledge of the genetic architecture of same-sex behavior in other animals."

Clearly you say if left-handedness is not genetic, it might be deviant. Thus, if it is genetically determined, it's not deviant.
The same should apply to homosexuality, right?

 

[Furcifer]

The thing is, you asked about animals "engaging in homosexuality" (which I interpreted as homosexual acts, not specifying exclusivity).

Ahh, OK. I'm coming from the understanding that homosexuality implies exclusivity.

 

[Roboramma]

There's no reason to assume that some animals don't prefer homosexual or hetrosexual sex. The fact that some humans are exclusive in this regard may have more to do with culture than biology.

Okay, now I know you're not reading everything. Read the articles posted by Alan, and come back to the discussion.

Please quote what is said in the article that shows I'm wrong.

 

[Furcifer]

The same should apply to homosexuality, right?

I think so. At that point it becomes a recessive trait.

And if you start yelling at me that the term "recessive trait" is pejorative I'm getting on a plane and coming over there to smack you!