9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Nonpareil]

Not very likely that Krege could have made many mistakes while doing his GPR research.

HAH! No.

 

[Simon39759]

Not very likely that Krege could have made many mistakes while doing his GPR research.

Indeed. But only it is not very likely that Krege ever did his GPR research to begin with.

You know, the research that he alleged did in 99, even if nobody remembers seeing him there and Krege was unable to produce any original data, photograph of him on the spot or even hotel receipt from the region... Yes, that research.

 

[Ignorantbystander]

As an aside to our Treblinka discussion I want to safeguard this picture of a model made by a survivor of the camp:

http://www.nafcash.com/nafcash_files/image001.jpg

Observe how small the camp is and that it should be extremely easy to establish with forensic means whether or not once in this location 870,000 people were buried here, dug up, burned and the remains buried again. Not very likely that Krege could have made many mistakes while doing his GPR research.

“Eyewitness” Yankel Wiernik’s model of the phantom “huge mass graves” of Treblinka that allegedly contain;

Millions of pounds of bone fragments, tens of millions of teeth and tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings.

http://www.nafcash.com/

Ever considered the option that Krege is a fraud?
Since:
-He never published a report about his findings
So nobody can verify if he searched in the right place or used the right methods
-Apart from the mass killings. There are photographs and reports about the use of excavators at Treblinka (whatever they were used for)
Nobody denies there was a camp lokated there. So how the f*** can the ground be 'undisturbed'?
-Then after the war we have this
Again, how can the ground be undisturbed?
Or is the embarrassing truth about Poles searching the site also a hoax?

 

[9/11-investigator]

And you still haven't answered why you showed the delousing chamber as the 'marketed' homocidal gas chamber, while this was obviously wrong.

I remember showing delousing gas chambers (like the one 'with a view') to show the blue staines from the zyklon B, staines that are missing from the 'gas chambers' that were marketed as homicidal gas chambers. Please point me to the post nr where you think I made a mistake. I think I didn't.

Let me guess, you visited Auschwitz, but missed Birkenau.

You are correct that I only visited the 'Arbeit macht Frei' camp. I did not 'miss' Birkenau; my wife simple refused to go inside with me and insisted on staying in the car in the parking lot. It was during a holiday, the visit was not planned, I impulsively turned the steering wheel while on route to Cracow coming from Amsterdam, Hanover, Leipzig & Dresden when I saw the road sign. Camp-1 was the only visit I realistically could push through without ruining the rest of the vacation. It was around 2000, I already was somewhat sceptical about the story but not anything like now. I remember the parking lot filled with cars with yellow license plates, meaning Dutch and French, hardly white ones (German). It was quit a shock to see the barbed wire, the famous gate. Walking around the premisses the buildings looked a lot like the summer camps I went to when I was a boy scout end fifthies. I noticed how identical the glasses were that were on display and I wondered whether they had put sand under the mountains of shoes and suit cases. Finally the 'gas chamber' and the crematorium (2 or 4 cylindrical ovens I believe). There was only 1 wooden door that shut off the 'gas chamber' from the outside. The structure was located directly next to (a few meters really) the barbed wire that surrounded the camp. Everybody on the inside could see it and who was going in and out. The alternative explanation, namely that the structure had served as a mortuary, seemed already more likely to me then.

The reason is that the Poles considered Auschwitz more as a monument for their suffering instead of that of the Jews. Many roadsigns lead to Auschwitz (museum), only a few to Birkenau. And still the emphasis is more on Auschwitz I then on Birkenau as I was told by a Polish guide last year when I was walking with her in a nearly deserted Birkenau while Auschwitz was crowded with tourists.

That's true, I should have visited Birkenau.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Ever considered the option that Krege is a fraud?
Since:
-He never published a report about his findings
So nobody can verify if he searched in the right place or used the right methods
-Apart from the mass killings. There are photographs and reports about the use of excavators at Treblinka (whatever they were used for)
Nobody denies there was a camp lokated there. So how the f*** can the ground be 'undisturbed'?
-Then after the war we have this
Again, how can the ground be undisturbed?
Or is the embarrassing truth about Poles searching the site also a hoax?

A few pages ago I gave you a youtube link that stated that Krege had not published his findings because he was afraid he had to go to jail, just like Germar Rudolf (and this week in Australia, Krege's home country, Toeben will be released from prison for just running a revisionist website).

But why haven't holocaustians repeated this very simple test? What are they afraid of?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Indeed. But only it is not very likely that Krege ever did his GPR research to begin with.

You know, the research that he alleged did in 99, even if nobody remembers seeing him there and Krege was unable to produce any original data, photograph of him on the spot or even hotel receipt from the region... Yes, that research.

Have you seen his video: http://www.codoh.com/video/treblinka.mpg

Come on, admit your mistake.

I'll forgive you.

 

[Nonpareil]

I remember showing delousing gas chambers (like the one 'with a view') to show the blue staines from the zyklon B, staines that are missing from the 'gas chambers' that were marketed as homicidal gas chambers. Please point me to the post nr where you think I made a mistake. I think I didn't.

How about the one where you were showing those pictures that you claimed were the delousing gas chambers (the ones "with a view")?

You are correct that I only visited the 'Arbeit macht Frei' camp. I did not 'miss' Birkenau; my wife simple refused to go inside with me and insisted on staying in the car in the parking lot.

<snip>

That's true, I should have visited Birkenau.

Yes, you should have. Camp One was not the site of very many gassings.

A few pages ago I gave you a youtube link that stated that Krege had not published his findings because he was afraid he had to go to jail, just like Germar Rudolf (and this week in Australia, Krege's home country, Toeben will be released from prison for just running a revisionist website).

And have you ever considered the possibility that this claim is crap? No? I thought not, because the Krege "report" is the centerpiece of your argument.

But why haven't holocaustians repeated this very simple test? What are they afraid of?

More likely, they don't feel the need. The graves have been investigated before - when they liberated the camps, for example.

 

[Nonpareil]

Have you seen his video: http://www.codoh.com/video/treblinka.mpg

Come on, admit your mistake.

I'll forgive you.

This video just makes the same denialist claims that you have the entire thread. It still offers no proof that the study was ever undertaken, or that its techniques were valid.

You see, 9/11-investigator (well, actually, you don't, as you can't read this post), that video basically just says "The Krege report showed that there was no death camp at Treblinka". That is EXACTLY what you have been saying the entire time, but you have offered no evidence that the Krege report was valid or that it ever took place. Basically, you have grabbed a random video that says the same thing that you do and come laughing to us with a "See, I told you so" expression, without realizing that all you are doing is attempting to back up baseless claims with baseless claims.
Argument ad populum is every bit as invalid as all the other logical fallacies you have been employing.

 

[Simon39759]

Auschwitz was really, the 'nice one' among the camps of the complex.
The use of the gaz chamber there was really experimental and ad hoc adapting existing structures.
These structures were only use for a short time before being reconverted once again so the the door that stroke your suspicion may not have been the one in use at the time.
Furthermore, the chamber was underground so, being heavier than air, it would stay in until ventilated out.

 

[Simon39759]

What are Krege's qualification? What was his engineering degree in? Who was his team composed of?
GPR are very tricky to use and interpret so, unless he has some real qualification in the matter, I would be doubtful of his interpretation, even if he did conduct the study, which is, in itself, doubtful.

 

[9/11-investigator]

You probably don't like rense.com but the story is highly interesting and can be confirmed in other more credible sources:

http://www.rense.com/general66/perdds.htm

Nazis Wanted To Send All Jews To The Soviet Union
6-16-5

BERLIN (Reuters) - A document found in a Moscow archive suggests that the Soviet leadership may have rejected a Nazi German proposal to deport Jews from German-occupied territories to the Soviet Union in 1940.

A Russian historian working in Germany has published an article in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper describing a letter he said he obtained that raised the possibility of Germany resettling Jews in Ukraine and Siberia.

The historian, Pavel Polian, said the letter, dated February 9, 1940, was written by Yevgeny Chekmenyov, a Soviet official in charge of resettlement, and addressed to then Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov.

The letter, a portion of which was published in the Berliner Zeitung newspaper on Tuesday, discusses a German proposal made to the Moscow government to move more than 2 million Jews from Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia to the Soviet Union.
...
But Polian said he believes it was written by Adolf Eichmann and Alois Brunner who were in charge of Nazi Germany's Jewish emigration centers in Berlin and Vienna.

Germany and the Soviet Union had a non-aggression pact at the time. But the Soviet leadership apparently rejected almost immediately the idea of accepting more than 2 million Jews from German-occupied countries, according to Polian.

As you will agree this is completely in line with the other documents I have shown earlier, namely that the Germans wanted to deport the Jews to the East (and nothing more) until at least 1942, while they were still in the winning mood and thought they would conquer large parts of the USSR so they could dump the Jews there. The only chance I give you to resque parts of the extermination story is to concentrate on the last part of the war when the Germans knew they were going to loose. But earlier, no way.

Here is confirmation of this story from other sources:

Here is the story from the respectable Sueddeutsche Zeitung (obviously in German) embedded in a 'somewhat adventurous site':

http://forum.thiazi.net/showthread.php?t=35818

Cannot find the article back from the site of the Sueddeutsche itself. But it was there:

http://www.signandsight.com/intodaysfeuilletons/205.html

Süddeutsche Zeitung, 13.06.2005

In the early 1940s, National Socialist functionaries tried in vain to expel German Jews to the Soviet Union, as historian Pavel Polian of the Russian Academy of Sciences and currently visiting lecturer in Freiburg has discovered. A letter dated February 9, 1940 from the Chairman of the Office for Settlement Commissar Yevgeny Chekmenyov has been unearthed in the Russian national archive, in which reference is made to two requests – one from Berlin, one from Vienna – to which the response was, "We can't take these Jews, we already have a tonne of our own." This initiative, previously unknown, took place after the failed deportation to Nisko in Poland and before the Madagaskar Plan. Polian suspects that Stalin rejected the idea because of the "spy mania of the regime, the distrust of masses of Jewish-capitalist settlers from capitalist countries and the enormous dimensions of the proposed re-settlement... The Soviet Union was pursuing its own interests and Stalin was hardly to be swayed by moral imperatives."

 

[Ignorantbystander]

A few pages ago I gave you a youtube link that stated that Krege had not published his findings because he was afraid he had to go to jail,

Yet he doesn't seem to be afraid to connect his name to this 'research'. Which should be enough to get him jailed I presume.
If he would have his findings reviewed by other scientists, and proven that he had been honest in his intentions. I don't think he would go to jail for that. Even though the research was unauthorised.
Remember, Leuchter did the same and was never sentenced for that.

But why haven't holocaustians repeated this very simple test? What are they afraid of?

And why would they? there have already been forensic investigations at the site. And allthough they might have been done better, considering the fact that the place has been ransacked by graverobbers for decades it is unlikely that a new forensic investigation would add much to what is already known.

Besides, what denier would accept an outcome contrary to his belief. They will just as easily wave it aside as the former investigation by Łukaszkiewicz or the more recent investigation of Belzec by Kola.

 

[Nonpareil]

You probably don't like rense.com but the story is highly interesting and can be confirmed in other more credible sources:

http://www.rense.com/general66/perdds.htm

No, it can't. And posting links to forums is not a good way to gain credibility.

 

[Toke]

There were a complain about wooden doors to gas chambers.
A steel door with rubber gaskets is preferable, but almost any door can be made sufficiently gas tight with tape around the edge.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Did you look at the Chinese, N Korea probably took a leaf out of their book.

There is quite a lot of information about the early Chinese communist party's methods of re-education. This is because of the soviet-chinese fallout in the 60's and the Russians wrote rude things about their early assistance to China in this area. I get the feeling that re-education on POWs in North Korean captivity was a "flung together" system. I worked on some documentaries on the People Liberation Army in the 90s for an Australian TV company and there is still regional variety in their propaganda and political education systems.

 

[Simon39759]

You probably don't like rense.com but the story is highly interesting and can be confirmed in other more credible sources:

http://www.rense.com/general66/perdds.htm

Nazis Wanted To Send All Jews To The Soviet Union
6-16-5

BERLIN (Reuters) - A document found in a Moscow archive suggests that the Soviet leadership may have rejected a Nazi German proposal to deport Jews from German-occupied territories to the Soviet Union in 1940.

A Russian historian working in Germany has published an article in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper describing a letter he said he obtained that raised the possibility of Germany resettling Jews in Ukraine and Siberia.

The historian, Pavel Polian, said the letter, dated February 9, 1940, was written by Yevgeny Chekmenyov, a Soviet official in charge of resettlement, and addressed to then Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov.

The letter, a portion of which was published in the Berliner Zeitung newspaper on Tuesday, discusses a German proposal made to the Moscow government to move more than 2 million Jews from Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia to the Soviet Union.
...
But Polian said he believes it was written by Adolf Eichmann and Alois Brunner who were in charge of Nazi Germany's Jewish emigration centers in Berlin and Vienna.

Germany and the Soviet Union had a non-aggression pact at the time. But the Soviet leadership apparently rejected almost immediately the idea of accepting more than 2 million Jews from German-occupied countries, according to Polian.

As you will agree this is completely in line with the other documents I have shown earlier, namely that the Germans wanted to deport the Jews to the East (and nothing more) until at least 1942, while they were still in the winning mood and thought they would conquer large parts of the USSR so they could dump the Jews there. The only chance I give you to resque parts of the extermination story is to concentrate on the last part of the war when the Germans knew they were going to loose. But earlier, no way.

Here is confirmation of this story from other sources:

Here is the story from the respectable Sueddeutsche Zeitung (obviously in German) embedded in a 'somewhat adventurous site':

http://forum.thiazi.net/showthread.php?t=35818

Cannot find the article back from the site of the Sueddeutsche itself. But it was there:

http://www.signandsight.com/intodaysfeuilletons/205.html

Süddeutsche Zeitung, 13.06.2005

In the early 1940s, National Socialist functionaries tried in vain to expel German Jews to the Soviet Union, as historian Pavel Polian of the Russian Academy of Sciences and currently visiting lecturer in Freiburg has discovered. A letter dated February 9, 1940 from the Chairman of the Office for Settlement Commissar Yevgeny Chekmenyov has been unearthed in the Russian national archive, in which reference is made to two requests – one from Berlin, one from Vienna – to which the response was, "We can't take these Jews, we already have a tonne of our own." This initiative, previously unknown, took place after the failed deportation to Nisko in Poland and before the Madagaskar Plan. Polian suspects that Stalin rejected the idea because of the "spy mania of the regime, the distrust of masses of Jewish-capitalist settlers from capitalist countries and the enormous dimensions of the proposed re-settlement... The Soviet Union was pursuing its own interests and Stalin was hardly to be swayed by moral imperatives."

Well; that's consistent with the idea that they initially considered deportation before resulting to a policy of extermination in late 1941 to mid-1942, as people have told you multiple time.

It is also totally contrary to you argument that the 'missing Jews' settled in the Soviet Union. Why would have the Soviet kept them after refusing them in 1940?
So, where did they go? Israel? Absurd, immigration to Israel did happen, but nowhere in number close enough to match the 6 millions of missing Jews (Israel's population only reach one third of that in 1958).
So, where did they go! but under the ground of Eastern Poland?

 

[9/11-investigator]

What are Krege's qualification? What was his engineering degree in? Who was his team composed of?
GPR are very tricky to use and interpret so, unless he has some real qualification in the matter, I would be doubtful of his interpretation, even if he did conduct the study, which is, in itself, doubtful.

Don't give me that rubbish. Your main resource, nizkor, is run by a...

A former United States Marine and retired service station manager
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_McVay
http://www.vex.net/~kmcvay/

I won't hold it against him, but don't start silly questions about what kind of engineer he was. Nevertheless, since you ask (you could have dome the research yourself):

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n3p20_radar.html
(had not seen this before myself)

For six days in October 1999, an Australian team headed by Richard Krege, a qualified electronics engineer, carried out an examination of the soil at the site of the former Treblinka II camp in Poland, where, Holocaust historians say, more than half a million Jews were put to death in gas chambers and then buried in mass graves.

According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), for example, "a total of 870,000 people" were killed and buried at Treblinka between July 1942 and April 1943. Then, between April and July 1943, the hundreds of thousands of corpses were allegedly dug up and burned in batches of 2,000 or 2,500 on large grids made of railway ties.

Krege's team used an $80,000 Ground Penetration Radar (GPR) device, which sends out vertical radar signals that are visible on a computer monitor. GPR detects any large-scale disturbances in the soil structure to a normal effective depth of four or five meters, and sometimes up to ten meters. (GPR devices are routinely used around the world by geologists, archeologists, and police.) In its Treblinka investigation, Krege's team also carried out visual soil inspections, and used an auger to take numerous soil core samples.

The team carefully examined the entire Treblinka II site, especially the alleged "mass graves" portion, and carried out control examinations of the surrounding area. They found no soil disturbance consistent with the burial of hundreds of thousands of bodies, or even evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed. In addition, Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes.

Meaning: it was a transit camp and nothing else. A temporary buffer to collect Jews from Europe and to send them further to the east into newly conquered Soviet territory.

 

[Simon39759]

So?


What the comparison between maintaining a web-site and operating a complex piece of equipment?

What does the price of the machinery has to do with anybody's qualification at using it?
Such complex equipement require experience and training operating, that's just that simple and GPR has the reputation of being especially difficult to operate and interpret.

 

[Nonpareil]

Don't give me that rubbish. Your main resource, nizkor, is run by a...

A former United States Marine and retired service station manager
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_McVay
http://www.vex.net/~kmcvay/

I won't hold it against him, but don't start silly questions about what kind of engineer he was.

Nice derail attempt. Nizkor is not run by one person, and the owner of Nizkor doesn't write the vast majority of the articles on there. Most of them are compiled information from other sources.

Nevertheless, since you ask (you could have dome the research yourself):

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n3p20_radar.html
(had not seen this before myself)

For six days in October 1999, an Australian team headed by Richard Krege, a qualified electronics engineer, carried out an examination of the soil at the site of the former Treblinka II camp in Poland, where, Holocaust historians say, more than half a million Jews were put to death in gas chambers and then buried in mass graves.

What a surprise! The site which bases its claims around Krege's supposed study supports Krege's claims! If Krege is really qualified, then there should be a record of his level of education somewhere. Or is this a variant on Kent Hovind's "I'm a scientist, for reals"?

<snip>

Meaning: it was a transit camp and nothing else. A temporary buffer to collect Jews from Europe and to send them further to the east into newly conquered Soviet territory.

Again, you are restating unconfirmed information. It does not in any way support your claims.

 

[Toke]

Lack of competence with the instrument could explain why they found no

evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed

in spite of there having been a camp there, with foundations.
Not going there at all is another explanation.