Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[six7s]

Also, I find the message of Xtianity to be true. What's that? I see it as the possibility of change, of turning one's life around

That's the hype, spin, marketing - complete with a free set of steak knives. The real message is one of 'crowd control'... but the model is ('scuse the pun) fundamentally flawed

Xtianity can encourage being extremely honest with one's character, and attempting to do something about it.

So? You don't need have to pretend in fairy tales in order to do that

I think women should have equality with men, gay with straight

So... you reject the teachings dogmatic hatred of the bible... Cool



I'll ask again (yeah.. I know you haven't had time to reply yet)

Serious question: WHY do you entertain the possibility that there is a god?

 

[six7s]

Um, I'm actually interested in logic so may I have a stab at answering or are we waiting for DOC to attempt an actual answer? I'll wait if people think I should.

Go for it!

After all, if we wait for DOC to actually think and then respond... well... hell will freeze over first

 

[Hokulele]

Um, I'm actually interested in logic so may I have a stab at answering or are we waiting for DOC to attempt an actual answer? I'll wait if people think I should.

Be my guest!

After all, this thread isn't about DOC.

 

[Simon39759]

Maybe if Christ had a military army like Mohammed and Alexander, he would have had a city too.

But then Christ did tell one of his apostles to put away his sword because, "those that live by the sword die by the sword". Christ had a different way to get his message out. And it did get out against all odds.

You are so ignorant of your own freaking messiah, it is an embarrassment:

Matthew 10:34 :
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Point is, we have plenty of evidences of Alexander beside the writings. We don't have any of Jesus but the a few self-contradictory writings, most of them (the apocryphicals) are rejected by the believers themselves.
At the end, we have three 'independent' sources: Mark; Q and John.

That's not 'one hundred persons seeing a flying saucer' that is two persons seeing one (and one person seeing he know one person that said they knew one person that had a dream about a flying saucer) and reporting about how 10,000 persons also saw it, with none of these 10,000 ever coming forward and no contemporary mentioning any of the 10,000 (I use 10,000 because it is the number you give, in reality, between the 'skies turning dark' and the undead taking to the streets to shoot the video for Michael Jackson's thriller, there should be hundred of thousands of these witnesses, that remain suspiciously silent).

 

[Hokulele]

At the end, we have three 'independent' sources: Matthew; Q and John.

[quibble]

Mark

[/quibble]

 

[Simon39759]

Doh!
Mega-doh!

Yes; of course; I had quoted Matthew in the post just before, that's my excuse, yeah, right.

 

[Mr Clingford]

That's the hype, spin, marketing - complete with a free set of steak knives. The real message is one of 'crowd control'... but the model is ('scuse the pun) fundamentally flawed

Respectfully I have to completely disagree! That has not been my experience of God or of the churches I have been members of.

So? You don't need have to pretend in fairy tales in order to do that

Note that I didn't say that! But it is at the heart of Xtianity, this idea of sanctification, theosis to the Orthodox, exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22,23). But whether there is a God or not, redemption, turning one's life around, is a wonderful thing.

So... you reject the teachings dogmatic hatred of the bible... Cool

.. and accept the message of love! For me the most important bits are the Love your God and Love your neighbour - everything is interpreted through those.

I'll ask again (yeah.. I know you haven't had time to reply yet)

Serious question: WHY do you entertain the possibility that there is a god?

The answer to this relates to carts and horses. I entertain the possibility because of my religious experiences, that message of hope and redemption, the love and peace that I have found in reflective prayer. I find it difficult to put into words because it is an intensely moving and deep thing. I do not think it likely that only Xtians experience this; those of other faiths can do too. Perhaps those too who practice meditation without the recognised framework of a religion.

I think it is too glib to colour religion as sheep control and the root of all evil. In my experience that is just not true.

If I ceased to believe in Xtianity, on reflection I might become a Quaker because they practice meditation, meet communally and attempt to be good neighbours to the world.

I will get cracking on your other post.

 

[six7s]

Your statement is not related to my request for you to explain your response in this post,

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5291925#post5291925

therefore I must assume you can't explain it

FAIL

Tip: try reading and thinking at the same time

This kind of thing has been happening a lot more then usual lately.

Get used to it

As long as you persist in promoting woo, your so-called arguments will be debunked

Failing to distinguish yourself from your woo is your problem. Deal with it.

People want to make negative statements or implications about me

No

It's your woo that is being criticised

Some people hope that by continually attacking me in any way possible they can discredit what I'm talking about.

This is called projection

...I think many people can see through all that and are instead focused on the material presented (and not DOC).

For the first time in ages, you are right!

Now... about that 'evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth'...

Ya got any?

 

[six7s]

But then Christ did tell one of his apostles to put away his sword because, "those that live by the sword die by the sword".

Evidence?

 

[six7s]

That's the hype, spin, marketing - complete with a free set of steak knives. The real message is one of 'crowd control'... but the model is ('scuse the pun) fundamentally flawed

Respectfully I have to completely disagree! That has not been my experience of God or of the churches I have been members of.

With all due respect (which is HEAPS ), I reckon this is nothing more than confirmation bias

So? You don't need have to pretend in fairy tales in order to do that

Note that I didn't say that! But it is at the heart of Xtianity, this idea of sanctification, theosis to the Orthodox, exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22,23). But whether there is a God or not, redemption, turning one's life around, is a wonderful thing.

But... if there is no god, why pretend there is?

You can have just as much love, joy and wondrous amazement in your life without recourse to fairy tales

So... you reject the teachings dogmatic hatred of the bible... Cool

.. and accept the message of love! For me the most important bits are the Love your God and Love your neighbour - everything is interpreted through those.

Love your neighbour:

Love a fictitious god that personifies all that is despicable? Love a homicidal, genocidal, fratricidal, racist, xenophobic bully?

I'll ask again (yeah.. I know you haven't had time to reply yet)

Serious question: WHY do you entertain the possibility that there is a god?

The answer to this relates to carts and horses. I entertain the possibility because of my religious experiences, that message of hope and redemption, the love and peace that I have found in reflective prayer.

Yep... cart before the horse

I find it difficult to put into words because it is an intensely moving and deep thing.

All due respect... I reckon its hard to put into words cos its bollocks

I do not think it likely that only Xtians experience this; those of other faiths can do too.

Argument from popularity

I think it is too glib to colour religion as sheep control and the root of all evil. In my experience that is just not true.

I'm not saying "root of all evil"... not here and now, at least

Anyhoo...

Just cos something doesn't tally with 'your experience' doesn't prove a damn thing!

As ever, I sincerely look forward to your reply

 

[Simon39759]

Evidence?

Matthew 26:52:
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Close enough.
But then:

Matthew 10:34 :
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Jesus is not very consistent, is he?

 

[six7s]

Jesus is not very consistent, is he?

Far be it for me to act as an apologist for the woo... but... the latter sword is, I think, a metaphor - akin to 'sorting the sheep from the goats' and/or 'a new broom sweeps clean'

Matthew 10:34-42

³⁴Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

³⁵For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

³⁶And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

³⁷He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

³⁸And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

³⁹He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

⁴⁰He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

⁴¹He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

⁴²And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

And... and...

I was hoping - perhaps in vain - for evidence that ISN'T circular

 

[Mr Clingford]

So?

You're not using the fallacious argument from popularity as the basis of your belief system, are you?

If you investigate the phenomenomenomenon, you'll soon realise that its almost certain that they are ALL wrong... fatally so

Douglas Adams: Is there an Artificial God?​

Considering the 'worthiness' of what is likely a mythical character is not a good starting point

I suggest that you first think if there is ANY compelling evidence to support the idea of ANY god


Huh?

Being the least wrong doesn't make it right

Seriously and sincerely, I suggest that you acknowledge that you have the cart before the horse

As you know, we have ABSOLUTELY NO 'evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth'

Rather, we have ample evidence that the NT and the OT are (literally) so ridiculously full of contradictions that they are useless in determining the authenticity of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god

So... what's left? Anecdotes? Pish!

Serious question: WHY do you entertain the possibility that there is a god?

I think we have different ideas about God. I see all religions as not being able to understand and describe God perfectly; they are all attempts. I see God as beyond all these attempts so it's not that one has to compare loads of different gods, as these signs are all flawed. It is likely that if I grew up in a different culture and experienced God then I would follow a different religion.

Even if all religions are wrong, there may be a god, the reason why there is something rather than nothing.

I find the less anthropomorphically I think about God the better.

I only began to doubt the existence of God after I became a Xtian because I wanted to make up my own mind.

I was not using an appeal to popularity but was trying to show that my idea of God is just enough to look at people's real motives, not just a saying of the magic words.

 

[six7s]

I think we have different ideas about God.

Yep. You assume - a priori - that there IS one

I see all religions as not being able to understand and describe God perfectly; they are all attempts.

Yep

I see God

Where?

as beyond all these attempts so it's not that one has to compare loads of different gods, as these signs are all flawed. It is likely that if I grew up in a different culture and experienced God then I would follow a different religion.

Damn straight

Even if all religions are wrong, there may be a god, the reason why there is something rather than nothing.

Where do you get the idea that there is a "reason why there is something rather than nothing"?

I find the less anthropomorphically I think about God the better.

Cut out the word "anthropomorphically", and you'll do even better

I was not using an appeal to popularity but was trying to show that my idea of God is just enough to look at people's real motives, not just a saying of the magic words.

You can (and will?) get a better perspective if/when you dispense with the fairy tales

 

[Mr Clingford]

Respectfully I have to completely disagree! That has not been my experience of God or of the churches I have been members of.

Note that I didn't say that! But it is at the heart of Xtianity, this idea of sanctification, theosis to the Orthodox, exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22,23). But whether there is a God or not, redemption, turning one's life around, is a wonderful thing.

.. and accept the message of love! For me the most important bits are the Love your God and Love your neighbour - everything is interpreted through those.


The answer to this relates to carts and horses. I entertain the possibility because of my religious experiences, that message of hope and redemption, the love and peace that I have found in reflective prayer. I find it difficult to put into words because it is an intensely moving and deep thing. I do not think it likely that only Xtians experience this; those of other faiths can do too. Perhaps those too who practice meditation without the recognised framework of a religion.

I think it is too glib to colour religion as sheep control and the root of all evil. In my experience that is just not true.

If I ceased to believe in Xtianity, on reflection I might become a Quaker because they practice meditation, meet communally and attempt to be good neighbours to the world.

I will get cracking on your other post.

With all due respect (which is HEAPS ), I reckon this is nothing more than confirmation bias

But... if there is no god, why pretend there is?

You can have just as much love, joy and wondrous amazement in your life without recourse to fairy tales

Love your neighbour:

Love a fictitious god that personifies all that is despicable? Love a homicidal, genocidal, fratricidal, racist, xenophobic bully?

Yep... cart before the horse

All due respect... I reckon its hard to put into words cos its bollocks

Argument from popularity

I'm not saying "root of all evil"... not here and now, at least

Anyhoo...

Just cos something doesn't tally with 'your experience' doesn't prove a damn thing!

As ever, I sincerely look forward to your reply

(Yargle, is it possible to quote someone and still contain what they were replying to?)
The suggestion of confirmation bias goes both ways! I, though, do not seek to control anyone, nor encourage anyone else to control anyone nor would I just sit quietly if I saw it happening. That is what I have observed. I agree, however, that religion is all too frequently used as a tool to control people.

I was trying to say that redemption is at the heart of the Xtian message, but it is not exclusive to it. I understand what you mean, though, for to pretend would be sad, perhaps. Attending a church does provide a framework within which one can take time out and consider who one has been over the past few days.

Of course, if there is a god and he is that homicidal sadistic bastard then he is not worthy of anything, let alone love. I would say that the understanding of God in the OT smells very strongly of time and place. But, yes, it is hard if not impossible to reconcile the portrayals of God in the Bible. Multiple Personality Disorder?

The hard to put into words thing - how easy do you find it to say that you love your wife (if you are married!) or to describe to a bloke down the pub what one's feelings and experiences with your wife feel like (hopefully not a war)?

I'm not using an argument to popularity. Just saying that if there is a god people can relate with, one needn't necessarily be a signed-up Xtian to do so.

Our own experiences are what shape our worldview. If you tell me that my partner is not named Emily then I will have to go with my experience and believe that she is. That's her in my avatar BTW. She's tall.

 

[six7s]

(Yargle, is it possible to quote someone and still contain what they were replying to?)

(Yes)

(Why the parentheses?)

(The easiest thing to do is to click on relevant poster's screen-name - next the post to you wan't to quote - and choose Quote this post in a PM. Copy everything from the resulting text box...)

(Then... go back to the original post)

(Then... click Quote, and paste the text in place of the 'normally' quoted post.)

(Note that there is a bug that cuts out the 'post number' which ordinarily results in the

link... for example, instead of [QUOTE="Mr Clingford, post: 5293522, member: 1758"], the 'Quote this post in a PM' approach results in [QUOTE=Mr Clingford] )

 

[six7s]

I, though, do not seek to control anyone, nor encourage anyone else to control anyone nor would I just sit quietly if I saw it happening.

So... other than using the interwebs (a rather 'quiet' medium) to express your views, how/where/when etc are you campaigning for a wholesale change in the mainstream christian attitude to gay rights?

 

[Paulhoff]

Of course, if there is a god and he is that homicidal sadistic bastard then he is not worthy of anything, let alone love. I would say that the understanding of God in the OT smells very strongly of time and place. But, yes, it is hard if not impossible to reconcile the portrayals of God in the Bible. Multiple Personality Disorder?

Can you say a christian god, and not just a so-called god. The word "god" doesn't not really tell us which one.

Paul

 

[Simon39759]

Six7s; Clifford, what about you start a thread for your discussion.

You wouldn't us to miss it when DOC finally post the evidence that the New Testament writers told the truth, wouldn't you?

 

[six7s]

Six7s; Clifford, what about you start a thread for your discussion.

You wouldn't us to miss it when DOC finally post the evidence that the New Testament writers told the truth, wouldn't you?

OK... I'll ask a mod to split this thread