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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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On the subject of Mara Bar-Serapion:
For the sake of argument, let's just assume that Bar-Serapion's letter was beyond all reasonable doubt referring to Jesus of Nazareth. Still it could not be considered reliable evidence that such a person had actually lived, because the letter contains factual errors. According to Bar-Serapion, the "men of Samos" had "burn[ed]" Pythagoras, an implication that he had been killed by his countrymen. In reality, Pythagoras left the island of Samos in 530 B. C. and emigrated to the Greek colony of Croton in Southern Italy. He later died in Metapontum, which is now Metaponto, Italy (Encyclopedia Americana, 1994, Vol. 23, p. 45). The men of Samos did not "burn" Pythagoras, so if Mara Bar-Serapion's letter was incorrect in such an important detail as this, how can it be considered reliable proof of the historicity of anything, much less the existence of a person who wasn't even mentioned by name in the document?

here:
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...-Serapion&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=es&lr=lang_en

So far, no sources out of the ten are convincing as evidence, DOC.
 
Cool

Why are you NOT a Sikh?

Hmm - I'm not so good at bowling?
I did attend Quaker meetings for a few months several years ago and I have a lot of respect for Quakers.

My guess is that you adopt a 'default position' of there is NO evidence to suggest that there's any truth to that belief system

If so, when was the last time you adopted that same 'default position' with regard to christianity?
I have had doubts about Xtianity since early on in my Xtian faith 19 years ago. I took the decision to not believe something just because somebody said so, but to try and work it our ofr myself.

Most religious belief systems posit there is a God and if this God is worthy then she is a compassionate type and values sincere attempts to live as best as one knows how, whatever religion is closest to the truth. I have only had experience of trying to live the Xtian faith and there are loads of very different positions within that one religion to consider.
 
Other sources are:

Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Phlegon, Thallus, Suetonius, Lucian, Celsus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Jewish Talmud.

Phlegon and Thallus as source material are discussed here by Richard Carrier:
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...n+eclipse&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=es&lr=lang_en

What do you think of his arguments, DOC?

Some sources are not as good as others- that can be expected. Bottom line is that all evidence can be put on the scale of evidence. Some just weighs more than others.
 
The evidence also shows you won't retract the statement. I maintain that unless you retract the statement you lose credibility on this system.
Do you see the problem of your logic?
And you should also apologize for greatly implying that I believe the number of source proves the veracity of those sources. This is downright false and yet you guaranteed it was how I felt.
Really? So what EXACTLY was it you meant?
 
On the subject of the Talmud as a non-Christian source:
In summary, the Talmud has no independent tradition about Jesus; all that it says of him is merely an echo of Christian and Pagan legends, which it reproduces according to the impressions of the second and later centuries. The Talmud has "borrowed" its knowledge of Jesus from the Gospels. When Josephus is excluded from the Jewish witnesses to the historicity of Jesus, there remains only the question of whether or not there may be some other evidence in the other Jewish literature of the time, in the Talmud, for instance. The answer is no.

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...ud+Christ&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=es&lr=lang_en

It seems to me this 'list' of sources is seriously lacking as source material upon which to base a claim that there are ten non-Christian sources that are evidence of the veracity of the NT writers.
Is this really all you've got?
 
Some sources are not as good as others- that can be expected. Bottom line is that all evidence can be put on the scale of evidence. Some just weighs more than others.
Yup and yours weighs nothing since there is no evidence to support your OP. So why did you post such worthless crap again?
 
Some sources are not as good as others- that can be expected. Bottom line is that all evidence can be put on the scale of evidence. Some just weighs more than others.

And some are false, like the Thallus and Phlegon assertion.
But since you cite these two as sources, why write them off so easily?
Could it be you only knew them from lists and didn't know just how forced their 'evidence' is?
 
And some are false, like the Thallus and Phlegon assertion.
But since you cite these two as sources, why write them off so easily?
Could it be you only knew them from lists and didn't know just how forced their 'evidence' is?

Your opinion that 2 or the 10 sources are false is just that an opinion. There are biblical scholars that have a different opinion than yours.
 
Actually Christ (Or Chrestus) is specifically mentioned in some of these sources. The Roman Sentator/historian Tacitus even mentions he was given the supreme punishment under Pontius Pilate.

Other sources are:

Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Phlegon, Thallus, Suetonius, Lucian, Celsus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Jewish Talmud.

We do not know whether each and every one of these sources were writing hearsay. That's giving you the benefit of the doubt.
 
No, I don't, give a reasoned explanation, why you feel so. I doubt your will.
I don't "feel" so. I'm simply stating a fact.

Your entire statement rest of a premise that people give a rat's ass about anything you say. That premise is false therefore your logic is flawed.

Please provide a reasoned explanation why I'm wrong, I doubt you will.
 
Your opinion that 2 or the 10 some sources concerning that Jesus enjoyed anal sex are false is just that an opinion. There are biblical scholars that have a different opinion than yours.
Is that clearer DOC? If you don't agree, please provide a reasoned explanation. I doubt you will.
 
We do not know whether each and every one of these sources were writing hearsay. That's giving you the benefit of the doubt.
But we do know that the existing sources for Alexander the Great were writing hearsay. Yet I doubt few skeptics ever questioned his existence. Special Pleading.
 
So which parts of the Bible/God do you actually believe in? (And, I'm being serious, non-snarky with this...) Do you believe in the creation story? What about Noah/Job/etc or do you believe the supernatural stuff in the bible is made up and the rest is a collection of parables?

(First, a thanks to people for your considerate 'listening' to my posts).

I do not think that there is an infallible tool for judging what is historical truth and what is not. Since it is not possible to know for sure whether something is true or not, the important thing for me is what did the writer wish to convey through the story. Understanding the genre of a text is very important IMO. For instance, many cultures have told stories to try to make sense of the world, where we come from and what it all means. The first 11 chapters of Genesis very much fall into this category. These stories, therefore, are not meant to be taken as history and definitely not science. This is not a new view, either.

Job has the ring of a morality tale and if it were true then God is a bastard and not to be respected IMO.

In an earlier post I wrote that I thought that there was now some evidence to suggest that a small group of Hebrews fled Egypt and then this grew into the Exodus tale, whole armies, magic snakes and all.

I find the idea of talking snakes and asses to be extremely unlikely.

When we get to the NT and I feel reluctant to type this (because I like to be rational), I think that there is now much more chance of things being historically true. It is still not possible to say with certainty whether something did actually happen or not. The gospels are not written in straightforward ways. Their purpose is to show how Jesus is the Messiah, not history in the modern sense, and they weave together actual happenings and stories. For instance, the dead rising from the graves in Matthew 27 (help, zombies) is picking up the image from Ezekiel 37 (dem bones, dem bones) to show that Jesus is the real deal. It is difficult, if not impossible, to say with certainty whether something is history or not. Of course, it is possible that the Jesus rising from the dead thing is not history either and I think that that is a reasonable position and perhaps one that I would hold if it were not for my own experiences and those of people I trust which suggest that odd things are possible. These experiences are, of course, not proof, are not convincing, especially on the internet (!), but are there.

Also, I find the message of Xtianity to be true. What's that? I see it as the possibility of change, of turning one's life around. Xtianity can encourage being extremely honest with one's character, and attempting to do something about it.

As for what I believe - I am not a fundamentalist.
I think women should have equality with men, gay with straight. I 'believe in' Evolution and AGW and am a 'near' universalist. To use theological terms, I think that Protestantism can be prone to focussing on Salvation (are you saved?) and forgetting Sanctification (are you attempting to become less selfish?). Unfortunately, I am at heart quite selfish, but I do not see other people as my playthings in my universe so much any more.
 
No, I don't, give a reasoned explanation why you feel so. I doubt your will.

No, I don't, so explain. I doubt you will.
I demand an apology, a retraction followed by self flagellation from you!!!
And you should also apologize for greatly implying that I believe the number of source proves the veracity of those sources would not explain your logical flaws. This is downright false and yet you guaranteed it was how I felt.
 
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