Just what did Darwin say about homosexuality?

[volatile]

As I said before, I don't need to be comfortable with it. Gagging, fisting, "2 girls 1 cup", likewise don't make me feel comfortable. I don't care how popular or pleasurable they may be. I'm not about to embrace it.

Again, we need to separate what you mean by "embrace", as you're conflating two different reactions and pretending they're the same. You wanting to engage in something, and the thought of other people engaging in the same are two very different things.

You said ""I'm not comfortable with the thought of a man sexually pleasing another man" and not ""I'm not comfortable with the thought of myself sexually pleasing another man". The difference is key. It's the externalisation of your own fears, disgusts and emotional reactions that renders your position a moral one, and a morally untenable one at that. You're saying that because you personally don't want to have butt-sex, the very thought of other people doing it "makes you uncomfortable". That's an explicitly moral and social position.

Imagine it re-framed. "The thought of people horse-riding makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm not going to embrace it". That certainly sounds like a moral and social statement to me, precisely because it is a markedly different statement from "I do not personally wish to go horse-riding".

How you've managed to drop morals into this is beyond me. The proclivity to having thing inserted into the anus has little to do with morality or society.

So why did you talk about it being "thrust into your face"? That's a social, moral statement.

And - of course the taboo on anal sex is a social and moral one. What else could it be? It's certainly not "genetic" or "biological". Butt sex feels good. Fact. The man's most pleasurable organ is right there in the anus. If it wasn't for sociological conditioning and the construction of heteronormativity, there'd be a lot more ass-sex about.

 

[ponderingturtle]

As I said before, I don't need to be comfortable with it. Gagging, fisting, "2 girls 1 cup", likewise don't make me feel comfortable. I don't care how popular or pleasurable they may be. I'm not about to embrace it.

How you've managed to drop morals into this is beyond me. The proclivity to having thing inserted into the anus has little to do with morality or society.

Because refering to someone as having "deviant sexuality" is most commonly used in a purgorative meaning. If you don't mean that then you are clearly useing a deviant definition.

 

[Furcifer]

This makes it sound as though you agree that there is such a thing as "normal" sexual behavior. Is that the case?

If so, how do you know heterosexuality is normal and homosexuality deviant? Wouldn't it be just as valid to say, for example, bisexuality is normal and both strict hetero and homo are deviant?

If we disregard procreation I suppose anything is possible.

 

[Furcifer]

Because refering to someone as having "deviant sexuality" is most commonly used in a purgorative meaning. If you don't mean that then you are clearly useing a deviant definition.

I'm not sure your reasoning follows? Picking your nose is a deviant behaviour, it in no way refers to the person, just the act.

 

[Furcifer]

You said ""I'm not comfortable with the thought of a man sexually pleasing another man" and not ""I'm not comfortable with the thought of myself sexually pleasing another man". The difference is key. It's the externalisation of your own fears, disgusts and emotional reactions that renders your position a moral one, and a morally untenable one at that. You're saying that because you personally don't want to have butt-sex, the very thought of other people doing it "makes you uncomfortable". That's an explicitly moral and social position.

No, the thought of anyone doing it makes me physically ill. It's conflated by annecdotal accounts from several nurses and a medical professional in regards to tearing of the anus. (2 nurses and a general practioner on two seperate occasions) There's documented medical evidence to support the claim that the anus is not the proper place to be putting a penis. Fact.

 

[sol invictus]

If we disregard procreation I suppose anything is possible.

So, "normal" sex is sex that might produce offspring? That means hetero sex with any form of birth control is deviant, as is masturbation, I suppose. That's a rather Medieval attitude, isn't it? Are you a strict Catholic?

If you back off from that absurd position and simply assert that some reproduction is necessary for society to continue, what's normal then? Why not a 100% gay society in which women are artificially inseminated? Why not a society in which everyone is bisexual? Why not one in which some people are hetero and some are gay, and nearly all the time hetero couples use birth control, and some of both hetero and gay couples manage to reproduce... much like ours?

 

[sol invictus]

No, the thought of anyone doing it makes me physically ill.

Therefore it's deviant for everyone. Got it.

There's documented medical evidence to support the claim that the anus is not the proper place to be putting a penis. Fact.

I'm starting to suspect you're a troll.... "proper place"? Are you serious?

Tell me, what's the proper place to put your fingers?

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, the thought of anyone doing it makes me physically ill. It's conflated by annecdotal accounts from several nurses and a medical professional in regards to tearing of the anus. (2 nurses and a general practioner on two seperate occasions) There's documented medical evidence to support the claim that the anus is not the proper place to be putting a penis. Fact.

Then neither is a vagina as there is tearing and such sometimes associated with that as well.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm not sure your reasoning follows? Picking your nose is a deviant behaviour, it in no way refers to the person, just the act.

Refering to something especialy sexual as deviant in standard langauge is placeing a moral connotation on that act. Your arguments here are entirely typicaly homophobic, especialy the focus on equating anal sex with homosexuality.

So you make typicaly homophobic statements, and describe it as deviant, with out remarkably deviant definitions of the words you are using.

 

[volatile]

No, the thought of anyone doing it makes me physically ill.

Why does what other people get up to bother you so much? Why do you continue to conflate your own feelings about what you want to do with your feelings about what other people want to do?

Further: you still haven't explained what you meant by "thrusting it in my face". And you haven't acknowledged the fact that your disgust is culturally constructed.

You're still externalising your own preferences and dislikes. Fine, you don't want to have anal sex. But why should the thought of other people doing it make you "feel uncomfortable"? It's nothing to do with you, at all.Why should society coddle your baseless, irrational disgust? Get over it. I really am serious about buying a small anal toy and experimenting with prostate stimulation. I guarantee you'll learn something.

It's conflated by annecdotal accounts from several nurses and a medical professional in regards to tearing of the anus. (2 nurses and a general practioner on two seperate occasions)

You don't think anyone ever got injured during vaginal sex?

There's documented medical evidence to support the claim that the anus is not the proper place to be putting a penis. Fact.

"Proper"? There you go again making explicitly normative and moral statements.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Well said. It's an interesting theory, but I'm not certain how many gay uncles are engaged in raising their sisters kids?

It's tough to generalize from bonobos and some existent tribal cultures, but there are cultures where the mother's male relatives take what we would traditionally call the paternal role in a child's life.

However, that's only an example of the kind of explanatory work altruism does. What it does is explain that genetic predispositions for helping the community gather food, build shelter, teach children, and improve society are things that altruism can propagate through our genetic lineage and doesn't matter a whit if the altruistic person is gay or straight.

P.S. If anal hurts you're doing it wrong.

 

[Furcifer]

If you back off from that absurd position and simply assert that some reproduction is necessary for society to continue, what's normal then? Why not a 100% gay society in which women are artificially inseminated? Why not a society in which everyone is bisexual? Why not one in which some people are hetero and some are gay, and nearly all the time hetero couples use birth control, and some of both hetero and gay couples manage to reproduce... much like ours?

I suppose if we ever evolve to that state it will be considered the norm. Until then is remains a deviant sexual behaviour.

There's a lot of "what if's" in the above. Are we engaging in purely hypothetical speculation? I don't see the point. It seems circular to consider a future state where homosexuality is the norm, then ask the question "Is it normal?"

 

[ponderingturtle]

I suppose if we ever evolve to that state it will be considered the norm. Until then is remains a deviant sexual behaviour.

Do you also consider oral sex to be deviant sexual behavior?

 

[Furcifer]

I'm starting to suspect you're a troll.... "proper place"? Are you serious?

Tell me, what's the proper place to put your fingers?

No a troll would play ignorant of anatomy and then ask a stupid question. If you can't distinguish the difference between your finger and your penis in the context of this discussion I feel sorry for you.

 

[volatile]

I suppose if we ever evolve to that state it will be considered the norm. Until then is remains a deviant sexual behaviour.

There's a lot of "what if's" in the above. Are we engaging in purely hypothetical speculation? I don't see the point. It seems circular to consider a future state where homosexuality is the norm, then ask the question "Is it normal?"

Way to miss the point...

What Sol was inquiring is on what basis you are asserting "normality". Is it quantitative? Or on the basis that sex is "properly for" reproduction?

What's your definition of "normal"?

 

[volatile]

No a troll would play ignorant of anatomy and then ask a stupid question. If you can't distinguish the difference between your finger and your penis in the context of this discussion I feel sorry for you.

Explain the difference between the "proper" place for fingers and the "proper" place for a penis in the context of this discussion, please.

If you can do so without resort to fallacious reasoning or moralising, I'll give you a cookie.

 

[Furcifer]

Why does what other people get up to bother you so much? Why do you continue to conflate your own feelings about what you want to do with your feelings about what other people want to do?

What? I said I'm not comfortable thinking about it. You're projecting.

Further: you still haven't explained what you meant by "thrusting it in my face". And you haven't acknowledged the fact that your disgust is culturally constructed.

I've explained, it's the attitude you've displayed here. It's not normal and I don't need to be comfortable with it. Trying to change people's attitude towards homosexuality isn't going to begin with telling people it's a perfectly normal and acceptable practice to engage in anal sex. Plus it's such a small part of it.

You're still externalising your own preferences and dislikes. Fine, you don't want to have anal sex. But why should the thought of other people doing it make you "feel uncomfortable"? It's nothing to do with you, at all.Why should society coddle your baseless, irrational disgust? Get over it. I really am serious about buying a small anal toy and experimenting with prostate stimulation. I guarantee you'll learn something.

What if it's part of my genetic programming to be uncomfortable by the thought? Have you considered that? There's quite a few people that are, in fact I'd be willing to say a majority of males find the thought repulsive. Do you have an actual study to confirm this is part of social imprinting?

You don't think anyone ever got injured during vaginal sex?

strawman.

"Proper"? There you go again making explicitly normative and moral statements.

No, anatomical.

 

[Furcifer]

Way to miss the point...

What Sol was inquiring is on what basis you are asserting "normality". Is it quantitative? Or on the basis that sex is "properly for" reproduction?

What's your definition of "normal"?

Normal is a man and a woman having vaginal intercourse.

 

[volatile]

What? I said I'm not comfortable thinking about it. You're projecting.

Really, I'm not.

You are conflating how you feel about engaging in anal sex with how you feel about others engaging in anal sex. This a gross and unsupportable error.

I've explained, it's the attitude you've displayed here. It's not normal and I don't need to be comfortable with it.

You've said. But you've not explained what you mean, nor how these assertions can be justified.

Firstly - what is your definition of "normal"? And secondly, in what way does other people doing something that you personally would not wish to engage in make you feel anything at all, let alone "uncomfortable"?

Trying to change people's attitude towards homosexuality isn't going to begin with telling people it's a perfectly normal and acceptable practice to engage in anal sex. Plus it's such a small part of it.

"Acceptable"? Are you still going to carry on claiming you're not taking a moral, social or normative position when you use words like "acceptable"?

"Acceptable" to whom? What do you mean?

What if it's part of my genetic programming to be uncomfortable by the thought? Have you considered that? There's quite a few people that are, in fact I'd be willing to say a majority of males find the thought repulsive. Do you have an actual study to confirm this is part of social imprinting?

I'll ask again. Are you disgusted, repulsed even, by having anal sex YOURSELF, or are you disgusted by the thought of other people having anal sex? The first is fine. The second is irrational, unsupportable and ridiculous. Why do you care what other people get up to? I can understand if butt-sex isn't your thing (though really - try it!), but extrapolating that to a generalised disgust about all forms of anal sex - which many people rather enjoy, thank you very much - is indeed a moral position.

strawman.

Not at all. Your objection to anal sex, so far as you have attempted to justify it all, has been that it may lead to damage. Vaginal sex does this too. So what, exactly, is your point? What exactly about homosexual sex is "disgusting", not only if you were to engage in it, but generally?

No, anatomical.

Not at all. "Proper" is not an "anatomical" term. "Proper" is a normative, and therefore fallacious, term. It relies on a naturalistic fallacy, and not even particularly firmly, given that there are more than one species of animal which engages in the kinds of sexual practice you'd no doubt call "deviant" as a matter of course.

Oh, and before I forget: If you can link to some of this "documented medical evidence to support the claim that the anus is not the proper place to be putting a penis", I'd really like to read it.

 

[volatile]

Normal is a man and a woman having vaginal intercourse.

And what criteria do you use to make that judgement? I mean what is your definition of "normal"? Numbers? What?