UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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During my search for a pic of the Goodyear blimp I noticed that you can get radio controlled models of it. I've ordered one.

Expect numerous UFO sighting reports from north of Melbourne, Australia in the near future. Rramjet will be orgasmic.
 
During my search for a pic of the Goodyear blimp I noticed that you can get radio controlled models of it. I've ordered one.

Expect numerous UFO sighting reports from north of Melbourne, Australia in the near future. Rramjet will be orgasmic.

Be sure to remove the top fin from it before you fly it!
 
Did you ever try using binoculars in a boat? Do you have any idea about the binocular quality in 1949?


Rramjet hasn't shown that he has any idea about the vast differences in quality of binoculars available today, much less the difference between today's binoculars and those of 60 years ago. But he's about to show us that he knows everything as he answers my questions from Post 2246 about the particular binoculars used by the witnesses. And what he doesn't know, he'll certainly research thoroughly and present his findings in a clear organized way, including all relevant citations and references to sources, of course. He's a scientist. He told us so hisownself!
 
Lovely UFO Enterprise.

I have read of solar powered/heated balloons made from thin black trash bags cut up and taped together to a large cylinder.
Towing a few of those should increase the reports to armadas of ufo's.:)
 
This then is the proof against the “glare” hypothesis.

Basically we get an internet summary of reflections, which I can find written with a simple google search. However, his argument is missing some very critical components for a scientific proof:

Coefficients of reflection for materials used in blimps/aircraft.
Angles of incidence/reflection.
Calculations.

A real scientist would simply present these kinds of calculations to demonstrate if a reflection is possible or not. Failure to do so indicates you either do not know how to do this or do not want to do this. One is just being unable to perform the task. The other is an attempt to not present information that is pertinent.

The photographs (you claim you looked at thousands or 1000?) do not replicate the conditions of a blimp seen under the conditions for those at Rogue River. They would have to be seen at the same rough angle of elevation, azimuth with the sun in the proper area of the sky. Therefore, this proof is invalid. A real scientist would know this.

IMO, you are not a very good scientist (but that is just my opinion). You behave as if you got your degree from a cracker jack box. Maybe you should try another line of work. Perhaps something more suited to your abilities. I think “standup philosopher” is a good one.
 
Wait, what? Are you implying that Rramjet might not be a real scientist? Omg...
 
Lovely UFO Enterprise.

I have read of solar powered/heated balloons made from thin black trash bags cut up and taped together to a large cylinder.
Towing a few of those should increase the reports to armadas of ufo's.:)


Yeah, I've seen those bag things on YouTube. I've been meaning to make one for ages. Thanks for the reminder.

We used to have a lot of fun flying box kites at night with Cyalume light sticks hanging from them. Made it into the local papers a few times.

Ufologists are fun, in small doses. Not like this OD of a thread.

:)


ETA: You might not have noticed the file name of my pic. It's actually the USS Blimperprise.
 
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ETA: You might not have noticed the file name of my pic. It's actually the USS Blimperprise.
No I didn't and I thought of UFFO Enterprise too late to edit.
 
A real scientist would simply present these kinds of calculations to demonstrate if a reflection is possible or not. Failure to do so indicates you either do not know how to do this or do not want to do this. One is just being unable to perform the task. The other is an attempt to not present information that is pertinent.

The photographs (you claim you looked at thousands or 1000?) do not replicate the conditions of a blimp seen under the conditions for those at Rogue River. They would have to be seen at the same rough angle of elevation, azimuth with the sun in the proper area of the sky. Therefore, this proof is invalid. A real scientist would know this.

IMO, you are not a very good scientist (but that is just my opinion). You behave as if you got your degree from a cracker jack box. Maybe you should try another line of work. Perhaps something more suited to your abilities. I think "standup philosopher" is a good one.

Wait, what? Are you implying that Rramjet might not be a real scientist? Omg...


Gosh! He had me fooled. I was just about to give the Nobel Prize folks a heads-up on their next winner.


Come on, guys. He must be a scientist. He said he is, and he thinks we should accept nearly everything else he claims on nothing more than his say-so. But if you have any doubt, you just wait. He'll get some real science going here in a bit now that I asked him some sciency questions in Post 2246, questions about optical properties of blimps, binoculars, and atmosphere. He'll be along any minute to really, really, REALLY, REALLY eliminate, scientifically, once and for all, the blimp as a possible mundane explanation for the Rogue River sighting.

Really. We're 2200 posts into this thread, and he hasn't gotten himself past the issue he brought up in the very first page. Certainly he's not here just to talk and talk. Certainly he wants to finally get that Rogue River incident out of the way so he can move along to providing some actual evidence to scientifically support his claim that aliens exist. After all, he's a scientist. Certainly. :rolleyes:

Hey you, Rramjet, you've got a lot of material to cover with your responses to my Post 2246. You'd better get started, kid, because I have about that many more scientific questions in queue, and there are lots of other people here asking lots of other scientific questions. Some of them are starting to wonder if you're not really a scientist at all. You don't want to let them down, do you? Any scientist, like yourself, would welcome the opportunity to talk all sciency and stuff and support your claim. So have at it. It's your turn to shine here!
 
Some general observations

In reference to Stray_Cat’s post (# 2243).

This is typical of the style of “argument” by the debunkers. Here’s how it goes.

I post pictures of blimps that demonstrate the “glare” hypothesis to be a fundamentally mistaken conception.

Stray_Cat posts pictures, supposedly in reply or rebuttal, to demonstrate that blimps can appear small in pictures!

This is like me saying “It is black.”
…and the reply coming…
“NO, it is a chair”!

It is a complete nonsense of course. Moreover it disrespects the people reading the thread because it takes them to be fools.

Here is another example of the debumker’s argument.

Astrophotogrpaher claimed that the witnesses were mistaken in their estimate of the angle of the sun.

I replied that it was NOT the witnesses who did that, it was merely Astro and myself arguing from inference about where the sun was at the time of the sighting. The witnesses made NO claim about the angle of the sun.

TjW then chimes in “The witnesses made a mistake…”! Now it is quite obvious TjW has not read the report, otherwise he would have realised his error. His IS an “argument from ignorance”!

Here is another example of the debunker’s style.

Geemack post (# 2246) leads with ” So we have another demonstration of your sub-par reading skills?” and continues ” Have you asked the principal or English teacher there at your high school about those remedial reading programs? … Your argument from incredulity and ignorance … an argument from incredulity and ignorance.”

You get the picture of course. He is merely a bully. For further evidence we need look no further than the historical record:

For example, take Geemack’s posts in sequential order from p. 51 of this thread onward (I could go back further…but his earlier posts were even worse than what follows): “…another declaration of incredulity … (#2001) … “lies or arguments from ignorance … his arguments from incredulity. Lies, ignorance, and incredulity” (#2003) … “find something that isn't just an argument from ignorance, incredulity, or lies” (#2028) … “"doing a crappy job of making his case"… “nothing more than incredulity, ignorance, and lies” … “an incredible job of arguing from ignorance” … “Nobody's bullying him” … “his concerns is nonsense, lies to be blunt” … “he's treated everyone like crap” … “Then, given the cherry picking and arguments from incredulity and ignorance, I'm sure you'll agree that he's doing a lousy job of making his case. Detailed ignorance, incredulity, and lies is still ignorance, incredulity, and lies.” (#2045) … “argument is from ignorance and incredulity” … “other than ignorance, incredulity, and lies” #2049) … “One, which you seem to excel at, is to remain ignorant” … “And the other, an area in which you've also demonstrated much experience, is to lie.” … “So which will it be, Rramjet? I predict ignorance” (#2055) … “yet you close your eyes, stomp your feet” … “your continued ignorance is noted” … “based on your ignorance, incredulity, or lies”(#2069) … “All he has offered are his arguments from ignorance and incredulity” (#2070) … “These links you spam” … “your argument from incredulity again.” … “your ignorance, incredulity, and lies” …(#2100) …”arguments from incredulity, ignorance, and lies” (#2131) … “Note, Tapio, that he blew you off” … “it's dishonest. He's treating you with disdain and contempt” … “his incredulity” … “he treats you with a flippant brush off, condescendingly lumps you in” … “and badmouths the intelligent sane people” … “arguments from ignorance, incredulity, and lies” (#2132) …”arguments from incredulity, ignorance, and lies” … “you're just such a poor communicator”(#2137) … “a series of arguments from ignorance, arguments from incredulity, lies” …”the ignorance, incredulity, and lies that make up the bulk of all your comments” … “you've been wholly incapable” … “your communication skills are so sub-par that you just can't assemble a cogent, understandable case” … “your arguments are built on ignorance and incredulity”(#2166) … “apparently impossible for him to assemble a cogent case” … “simply incapable of convincing anyone” … “Why doesn't he get someone who can communicate effectively to help out”(#2167) … “in any of Rramjet's link spam “(#2170) …”I fully expect another display of your ignorance”(#2189) … “again you misunderstood” … “did you ask the principal there at your high school about those remedial reading classes” … “your ignorance, incredulity, and lies”(#2192) … “incapable of presenting it in a cogent way” (#2196) … "Since his crappy argument” … “arguments from incredulity, ignorance, and lies”(#2201) … “you're still getting your butt handed back to you every time you post your repeated arguments from incredulity, ignorance, and lies” … “your fantasy have actually recognized your dishonest, ignorant, and incredulous arguments” (#2206) … “Do you really not realize how ridiculous your argument from incredulity and ignorance is? It's not just a plain old ordinary argument from ignorance and incredulity, it's a calculated, wilful, intentionally obtuse, cherry picked, dishonest argument from ignorance and incredulity. You have failed, Rramjet.”(#2223) …

And that birings us back to (#2246) where he leads off with “So we have another demonstration of your sub-par reading skills”…

There is all the evidence anyone needs to accuse GeeMack of being a bully. Now of course bullying is the lowest form of argument – just one step short of physical violence. I DO note that in his very latest post GeeMack seems to have (almost) abandoned the bully boy tactics... can we hope the leopard can change his spots?

Then we have the arguments from people like Vortigern – who spams Stray_Cat’s pictures while adding nothing new at all to the argument even while missing the point that the argument was all about the “glare” hypothesis… I mean ANYONE can find pictures that show small and indistinct blimps… and of course that has NOTHING to do with Rogue River at all (or the argument at hand – the “glare” hypothesis)!

Referencing p.57 of this thread: Correa Netro replies to Akhenaten’s spam photo (Enterprise/blimp mashup) with some spam of his own (by merely referencing the spam photo). RoboTimbo chimes in with more spam (adding no argument of debating points concerning the issues at hand) Akhenaten then spams Corea_Neto’s spam… and on THAT goes…

So the real debate gets buried under an avalanche of utter nonsense.

Anyway… now that we can see how the members of JREF really treat an honest attempt to debate the topic of UFOs… back to the REAL debate and those people who might actually have some REAL arguments to make.
 
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To review the rebuttals to Rramjet's post about reflectivity and visibility of details:

First we have the FOV drawing originally made by EHocking, along with the contention that the viewing is poor and “and can barely make out the top and bottom fins”.

But of course here we have a tiny drawing of a blimp on a yellow background which of course bears absolutely NO relation to the viewing conditions in the REAL world at the time of the Rogue River sighting… and MORE – we CAN see the details of the blimp in the drawing so there IS absolutely no point to the excersize at all from Vortigern99.

Notice also that even though Vortigern99 repeats an earlier post, he does NOT include the rebuttals also made at the time…


Originally Posted by Various Members of the JREF
So you have no understanding on how glare works. Some features will be glared away no matter what the angle.

You fail again, your blimps are less reflective then old style and the light comes from a different angle also your pictures are taken far closer.
To which I rely:
It has been contended that "glare" from sunlight reflecting back to the observer could have obscured the lower parts of the blimp, leaving the witnesses with only a clear view of the upper portion, thus leading them, to believe that there was only a top fin on the Rogue River object.

I have already countered that this is unlikely because the motion of the blimp (first toward, then turning and angling away from the observers) would have shifted the "glare" so that features should have been alternately revealed and obscured over time - especially as neither the observers nor the light source moved.

However (of course) this was too subtle an argument for the skeptics to accept (not being "specialists" in observation) so I decided that a better "proof" against the "glare" hypothesis was possible.

I have now studied over 1000 blimp photos (Google Images -“Blimp” or “Blimp Photo”, etc) and have tried to select from those pictures that show maximum “glare” from the blimp while representing as close as possible the conditions at Rogue River on the day (see attached images).

According to witnesses the sky was clear and the sun was low at their backs. The time of the sighting was about 1700 hrs (5pm) and according to (www.aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php) the sun at that time was at 38 deg. elevation and 263 deg. azimuth (thus Astrophotographer’s 30 deg. was an incorrect guess – as I suspected it would be).

To explain what is occurring with reflected light off a blimp we first must recognise that there are three types of reflection possible: Specular, Diffuse and Semispecular (a mix of the first two). Specular reflection is when light is reflected back as a “beam” such as light off a mirror. This is where the angle of reflection equals the angle of incidence and it creates the “glint” phenomenon - and it is well known that this "glint" can obscure the view of reflective objects. And this is where the "glare" hypothesis arises from. Diffuse reflection is where the light is reflected from a surface equally in all directions - and there is no “glint” – such as off a piece of matte-white paper. Semispecular is a mixture of both types, but where the intensity of the reflection is greater where a specular “glint” would have been - but also brighter spreading over the surrounding area, becoming more diffuse the further away. This semi-specular type of reflection is the type of reflection that is apparent from blimps.

If one observes the pictures attached (I would have uploaded more but there is a limit on the number one can upload in this forum but they are representative) one can see this phenomenon quite clearly. What is also apparent however is that there is no “glint” or “glare” as described in the hypothesis that would “block out” part of the image while leaving other parts visible. For example in pictures 1, 5, and 10 we can observe the closest a blimp will ever come to a “glint” - but you will also note that the details inside the brightest area of reflection - remain visible. Other pictures show the semispecular reflections at various angles of flight – but at no time do the details of the blimp get lost in the “glare” from a reflection – as contended in the “glare" hypothesis. As can also be noted, when the blimp is not front on, but more side on, the “glare” is elongated proportionally - but again, never reaches "glint" proportion that would block viewing conditions.

This then is the proof against the “glare” hypothesis.


You do appreciate, I'm sure, that those photos are inevitably pre-selected for quality by their original posters? (i.e. most people discard their duff photos, they just don't shove them all online.)

If you have EVIDENCE that specular glare can be created from a blimp – then PRESENT it. Merely stating it is so does not make it so.

Remembering that the estimates of distance were between 1 and 4 miles away and at an altitude of 5,000 feet!

So? What’s your point? It has been shown that the observers could have easily made out the details. (http://www.brumac.8k.com/Rogue/RogueRiver2.htm)
So what’s your point?

Also the 1940s/1950's blimps were made from [a material similar to aluminium foil in terms of reflectivity], making them more reflective than the modern ones (as is evident by the only vintage photo posted by Rramjet).

You will find that I have used a picture of the blimp in question. Just go to my post. You will see it in the pictures. There is NO specular glare apparent from such a surface. And again you simply speculate from unfounded assumptions about the reflectivity of “modern” v. old-style” blimps. How do you know the exact reverse of what you contend is not actually the case?

Of course you've ignored so many details like the reflective effect of various skin materials, surface textures, type of paint, etc. You've ignored visibility conditions like humidity, pollen, airborne pollutants, etc. You've ignored the quality of the binoculars, lens coatings, condition of lenses, prism alignment, how clean the lenses were, etc.

Actually, again my pictures represent “of various skin materials, surface textures, type of paint, etc” so you have NO point here.

If you have evidence that “humidity, pollen, airborne pollutants” was present in 1949 on a clear, bluesky day at Rogue River, then present it, otherwise you are merely grasping at straws with unfounded assertion.

BLIMPS EXIST.

Ummm…but I thought you all agreed…UFOs exist….
 
I stated
Unfortunately, you are just plain wrong here. WHAT complex event are we talking about -it really MATTERS. Stress and anxiety? You REALLY MUST provide a relevant quote from Loftus WITH the relevant context - as I have done in quoting the research I did) if you want to support your contentions. Without it you are still making unfounded assertions in the FACE of ALL the research evidence! The research is simply AGAINST you on this point. You won't believe me, but I KNOW this. It really is one of the fundamentals of psychology. Perhaps you should read Loftus more carefully? Particularly the context in which she makes the claims you suppose.
Do you want me to quote the entire chapter? All of the studies she cites had to do with stressful events commonly seen in crimes of short duration. You chose to pick some study that is not specific and has everything to do with long duration events that involve being occupied. Which is more applicable? Her studies or the ones you claim prove your point. Once again, you are declaring yourself the ultimate authority. I think the studies Loftus presents are far more appropriate.


Do you want me to quote the entire chapter? All of the studies she cites had to do with stressful events commonly seen in crimes of short duration. You chose to pick some study that is not specific and has everything to do with long duration events that involve being occupied. Which is more applicable? Her studies or the ones you claim prove your point. Once again, you are declaring yourself the ultimate authority. I think the studies Loftus presents are far more appropriate.
Some of it can be read at "google books". Read to your heart's content what they give you from the book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=uBl...age&q=&f=false


As far as "I Know this" comment, that is typical of you. You are the ultimate authority. If you actually read the Loftus document, you would realize how wrong you truly are. Stick your head in the sand some more.
Unfortunately for you the context MATTERS. If you had understood the research (but of course one cannot expect you to). For example the phenomenon of subjective time distortion occurs absolutely tied to context. For example, when people are involved in an accident, time seems to slow down. This is related to the context of trauma. Thus in your (and Loftus’) “crimes” scenario time also slows down (from the observers perspective). Anxiety and stress are absolutely related in this context.

However, in the context of an event like Rogue River, exactly the opposite occurs. Here the witnesses are not only busy trying to determine what the object might be, they were probably somewhat excited that they could not identify it and would have been pondering what THAT meant. In THAT context, as the research has shown, time “speeds” up. That is the observer believes a shorter interval has passed than reality.
THAT is the research. THOSE are the findings.

When you become a qualified psychologist Astrophotographer, then maybe you will understand. Until then you have simply misinterpreted the research – as so often happens with lay people.

I stated:
WHAT boat? WHAT waves? Grasping at straws now aren't we? How deep was the river at the point of observation? How do you know they were not simply wading or walking along the shore? But of course it is another red herring from you. That seems to be your specialty of late when you run out of real argument.

These details are pertinent to the observations made by the witnesses. You simply refuse to even look into this as a potential problem.
Again I state: WHAT boat? How do you know they were not simply wading or walking along the shore?

I stated:
THEN HOW and WHY are the witnesses perceptions mislead? Merely stating so does NOT make it so.

And merely proclaiming you can compensate for witness error without describing your methodology does not make you right.
So you shift the burden of proof again. Why am I not surprised that when you make an assertion you feel under no obligation to provide evidence to support your assertions. Yet you claim you need that evidence form me. That is a double standard. THAT is hypocrisy.

I stated:
The witnesses state the conditions were clear. The weather charts of the day state the weather was clear. You read that as meaning hazy? THEN provide EVIDENCE that "clear" actually means "hazy"! Another red herring!

Wrong, I stated just because the witnesses state it was clear does not mean there could be haze as well. I have seen numerous "clear" days where the sky is unacceptable for astronomy simply because it was not "clear enough". It has to do with transparency, which is my point. What was visibility that day? Present the weather charts.
“Unacceptable for astronomy”(?) is a WHOLE lot different to (relatively) close range viewing. If you have evidence that “haze’ affected the viewing at Rogue River…then PRESENT it. Support your assertions. If you make them, you must have evidence to support them. Or are they merely a belief borne of faith?

I stated:
Again -you fail to present the evidence to support your contentions. I asked you HOW it was relevant to the Rogue River case. merely repeating over and over that it is, does NOT make it so. And merely stating the conditions "were similar" does NOT make them so. WHERE is you evidence?

I have presented my evidence. The witness states clear skies, the witness is a professional photographer, the witness claimed to see a disc, the film looks like a disc but it is actually a plane. It is highly pertinent but you refuse to accept it.
But still you fail to make the case of relevance. Who was the “witness”? Were binoculars involved? Were there more than one viewing at the same time? What was the distance to the object? What was the time of day? Where was the sun in relation to the object and the observer? Etc.

Your arguments are just plain nonsense. You lack the objectivity for a scientist and fail to even see potential other explanations. As far as your defense of the Rogue River case, you have failed.
Just because you say so does not make you correct.
 
So, let me get this straight, Rramjet.

You are now contending that the witnesses in the Rogue River case underestimated the time it took for the whole event to occur. So instead of it taking the object about 2 minutes to disappear from sight it probably actually took about 4 minutes?

So in fact, their estimates of the speed of the object are wrong then, since they would be based on distance covered divided by time taken, and to them time seemed compressed, so it would have actually been moving slower than they say.

Got it, thanks for clearing that up.
 
When you become a qualified psychologist Astrophotographer, then maybe you will understand. Until then you have simply misinterpreted the research – as so often happens with lay people.

I see. In addition to playing the role of a scientist, you are now playing the role of a qualified psychologist. Forgive me for questioning your supreme authority. Let me figure this out. In the experiments cited by Loftus, the witnesses were asked to determine the duration of the short and stressful events. In these experiments, the witnesses consistently overestimated the duration of event. I am trying to figure out how you interpret these experiments to mean the witnesses are going to underestimate the duration of the Rogue River event. Your logic is amazing.

In case you did not apparently bother to read Loftus, I transcribed the pertinent sections for you:

In order to study the effects of eyewitness testimony in a realistic setting, Buckhout and his colleagues staged and assault on a california state university campus (Buckhout 1977; Buckhout et. al. 1975). A distraught student "attacked" a professor in front of 141 witnesses. The entire event was recorded on videotape so that the actual incident could be compared wtih eyewitness accounts. The attack lasted only thirty-four seconds, and after it was over, sworn statements were taken from each of the witnesses. One question about the duration of the incident produced an average of eighty-one seconds. Thus the witnesses overestimated by a factor of almost two and a half to one.
Two additional studies show the same tendency to overestimate time. In the first (Marshall 1966) the subjects watched a forty-two second film in which a young man rocks a baby carriage and then flees when a woman approaches him. A week after the subjects had seen the picture and after they had made written or oral reports on the recollection, they were asked how long the picture had taken. On the average the subjects thought it had lasted about a minute and a half. In the second study (Johnson and Scott 1976) unsuspecting subjects who were waiting to participate in an experiment overheard either a neutral or violent conversation going on in the next room. A person, referred to as the "target" then departed from the room, spending approximately four seconds in the presence of the waiting subjects. Both males and females overestimated the amount of time they thought they had viewed the target. Females reported that they had viewed him for an average of twenty-five seconds while males claimed it had been seven seconds on the average. Thus we have ample evidence that people overestimate the amount of time that a complex event takes. Furthermore, there is evidence that when a person is feeling stress or anxiety, the tendency to overestimate the passage of time is increased even further (Sarason and Stoops 1978)...... (I snipped a section where there is discussion about a court room case that the time question was an issue).
In sum, there is solid evidence that errors occur in people's estimates of the duration of an incident, and the errors are in the direction of overestimation.....
(Loftus Eyewitness testimony 30-31)



Again I state: WHAT boat? How do you know they were not simply wading or walking along the shore?

Because the report says they were in a boat. If you actually read the report you would know this.

“Unacceptable for astronomy”(?) is a WHOLE lot different to (relatively) close range viewing. If you have evidence that “haze’ affected the viewing at Rogue River…then PRESENT it. Support your assertions. If you make them, you must have evidence to support them. Or are they merely a belief borne of faith?

If I were to present weather data, you would refuse to look at it anyway. To summarize so far, I found a weather map for 1030 PM PST. It only shows observations for a few stations in Oregon and California. Those on the coast show clouds. Inland was clear. The Oakland tribune states fog moved into the coast that evening. I will keep trying to find additional information. Obviously, this is something new to your scientific mind.

My point is that we do not know what "clear" skies described by the witnesses meant. Just because it was "clear" did not mean visiblity was that great. Since the object was at least a mile away, any mist, haze, or humdity can affect the observations. It is important to understand what the conditions were so we can understand how it might affect the obseravtions. Just like understanding they were in a boat or that it was PST (things you obviously missed in your extensive reading of the case). It may seem small but it is important. I thought that obtaining all the facts was important for scientific analysis. You seem not interested in fact checking or any additional information. How scientific of you. Are you sure you aren't just a "stand up philosopher"?
 
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so Rramjet, you are NOT a "lay person"?

Sorry if I missed this but what makes you more qualified than say some of the people that have posted on this thread that have really great resumes in science fields (including astronomy and aerospace).

I mean, if you aren't a "lay person" give us your resume.

And what you think it IS if it isn't a blimp. What IS it? Or what do you suppose it is?

Let's cut to the chase. Don't give me the old "We don't know WHAT it is!" thing, when you certainly know what it ISN'T. Knowning what something ISN'T narrows down the choices for you somewhat. To say the least, we seem to get what you feel it is.

It's not a blimp, and you certainly aren't giving us the old "home made" balloon or "weird government project" vibe here. Be honest, what do you "suspect" the "evidence" says it is. Not what it isn't.
 
[*just a bunch of whining about failing to support your claim snipped*]


And here, given another chance to address substantive issues raised, you waste the opportunity to complain about the fact that everyone has busted you in your arguments from ignorance, incredulity, and lies, and recognizes that your support for your claim has utterly failed so far.

You said you've eliminated all mundane possibilities which might explain the Rogue River sighting, yet you haven't shown us how you've come to that conclusion, scientifically, objectively, like a real scientist would. And not one single person here agrees with your assessment. So are you going to answer all the questions in my Post 2246? As long as there are valid questions about sighting conditions, binoculars, the dozens of relevant optical properties of blimps (and every other conceivable flying thing which we haven't even gotten to yet because your arguments purporting to dismiss the blimp possibility have continued to fail), veracity of witness reports, atmospheric conditions, etc., you've got a lot of work to do. You're not done eliminating all the mundane possibilities, not by a long shot, and what you've offered so far isn't even a start.

(Hint: You can admit that you don't know the answers, and your arguments really are just based on incredulity and ignorance. You can concede what everyone else realizes to be true, that there are possible mundane, plausible explanations for the Rogue River sighting, acknowledge that it was a bad example to use for your purpose, put it behind you, and move forward.)
 
Jocce said:
Then by all means, describe the following conditions, previously mentioned by Astro and how they would affect the reliability of the observation:

1. humidity
2. transparency
3. binocular collimation
4. binocular lenses condition
5. binocular prism condition
6. boat steadiness

Also:

7. perceptual distortion
8. confabulation
9. cognitive bias
10. unfalsifiability of anecdotal accounts
11. "person who" logical fallacy
12. subjective validation
13. false memory
14. optical distortion via luminous reflectivity
 
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