How do you guys explain really bizarre cases of synchronicity?

[Dr H]

The problem is that people who believe in synchronocity claim it's an alternative to mere coincidence as an explanation, but they claim it is acausal.

As I say, I think they're trying to imply a cause ("harmony with the vibrations of the universe" or some such rot), but they're being evasive. Just denying that it's mere coincidence, IMO, is tantamount to claiming a causal connection, but they deny that. (See Rodney's citation of Jung's definition earlier in the thread.)

That's why I've been asking what the distinction is between synchronicity and mere coincidence and why "synchronicity" is thought to be more valid than "mimetoglamjabberism" (a word I made up to refer to something other than synchronicity that is also indistinguishable from mere coincidence).

I agree. The suggestion that there is "meaning" through a "connection" that is "acausal" is basically an abuse of language. IMO it's in the same category as reading tea leaves.

Or, in this case, teapots.

 

[fls]

Don't keep us in suspense! What, specifically, are you recommending be done to prove or disprove synchronicity?

The same things we do to address any other sort of idea. We look at those things that gave us the idea in the first place and the we attempt to see what happens when you take away the effects of chance and bias.

As Jeff Corey mentioned, thinking about how things would look in the absence of synchronicity would help form a testable hypothesis. Marshmallow's story about the butterflies would be a good one to test using that method. TeapotsHappen's story would be a good one to treat like a medical case study. One would investigate the sequence of events which lead to the teapot being buried in the crawlspace, for example. If it was discovered that TeapotsHappen buried it there and forgot about it, it would change the complexion of the story, would it not?

Anyway, it's not really a mystery as to how these things can be studied in an objective manner. We make use of those techniques we already use to study similar questions.

Linda

 

[Dr H]

I told you what I had seen and that is not an anecdote. I took notes. I have noticed that skeptics use the term "anecdotal" in pejorative meaning.

"Anecdotal" is not inherently pejorative, but it does describe a form of evidence which is inherently weak. Essentially, it simply means that the evidence has been relayed only by word-of-mouth, and therefor lacks any testable objective component.

This is distinct from, say, having a spoon clamped into a stress-guage in a sealed chamber to determine where force is being applied when (if) it bends.

Naturally it is possible that the boy cheated or I am a liar.

Naturally. And that is true of any bit of anecdotal evidence, which are two reasons why such evidnece is inherently weak.

But my claim can be studied scientifically by interviewing all people then present.

That is one way in which your claim could be studied, true, but it doesn;t constitute a scientific study of your claim, by any means. Having other people verify your anecdotal account also by word-of-mouth is simply adding more anecdotal reports to your original report.

A whole bunch of weak evidence doesn't necessarily add up to strong evidence.

It is not possible to have "accumulated evidence" that PSI does not exist. But it is possible that you have lack of evidence. I can tell you a secret – you cannot find the evidence in skeptical sources.

I let you in on a secret: most serious skeptics read original sources wherever possible.

 

[fls]

I had a long discussion with Suitbert Ertel (a parapsychologist) about the issue of fraud. He insisted that it was necessary to include that information where fraud could occur, because those were the circumstances under which psi abilities could flourish. But then the problem is that psi is indistinguishable from fraud. At some point it must be reasonable to ask psi believers to come up with a way to distinguish the two. It doesn't help that Lusikka thinks that taking notes and the presence of witnesses obviates the possibility of fraud as though it hasn't frequently occurred under those very circumstances.

How can we possibly believe somehow who has the appearance of gullibility?

Linda

 

[Dr H]

He insisted that it was necessary to include that information where fraud could occur, because those were the circumstances under which psi abilities could flourish. But then the problem is that psi is indistinguishable from fraud. At some point it must be reasonable to ask psi believers to come up with a way to distinguish the two.

Well that's exactly the same problem with synchronicity. I see no distinction between it and coincidence, and none of the advocates of synchronicity in this thread have been able to shed any light on what such a distinction might be.

Furthermore, one of the claims associated with synchronicity is that the synchronistic events allegedly convey some meaning, yet I don't see anywhere in the thread where TH has articulated what the alleged meaning was supposed to be in his experience, despite some direct requests that he do so. Have I missed something?

As I see it, we have an anecdotal report of a coincidence that is claimed to be more than a mere coincidence (ie., "synchronistic") because it conveys some meaning; but we have been given no information as to what that meaning is supposed to be, and therefore no way to distinguiush the alleged synchronicity from ... a coincidence.

Do discussions like these make anyone else dizzy?

 

[Rodney]

TeapotsHappen's story would be a good one to treat like a medical case study. One would investigate the sequence of events which lead to the teapot being buried in the crawlspace, for example. If it was discovered that TeapotsHappen buried it there and forgot about it, it would change the complexion of the story, would it not?

Absolutely. But what if the investigation reveals that, prior to Teapots Happen (TH) moving to the house eight years ago, the teapot was buried in the crawl space underneath the house by a group of teenagers as a prank, and that TH could not possibly have known about that? And what if the investigation also reveals that TH never owned a teapot prior to the one he purchased one week before his discovery of the identical teapot underneath his house? And what if the investigation further reveals that all of TH's other claims check out? Would you then be more open to the possibility that the sequence of events that he experienced was a synchronicity?

 

[Prometheus]

Absolutely. But what if the investigation reveals that, prior to Teapots Happen (TH) moving to the house eight years ago, the teapot was buried in the crawl space underneath the house by a group of teenagers as a prank, and that TH could not possibly have known about that? And what if the investigation also reveals that TH never owned a teapot prior to the one he purchased one week before his discovery of the identical teapot underneath his house? And what if the investigation further reveals that all of TH's other claims check out? Would you then be more open to the possibility that the sequence of events that he experienced was a synchronicity?

That depends. What's a synchronicity?

 

[quarky]

a synchronicity is a feeling one gets; difficult to put into words; akin to de-ja-vu because of being a feeling more than a rational event. Its the noticing; the focusing, on a particular sequence of events that announces its significance in a personly appealing way.

luck of the draw. while the teapots are lining up in our minds, there's no doubt a number on a letter on the sidewalk somewhere that is your birthday. perhaps you stepped on it on your way to work. from this angle, synchronicity would be the feeling that comes with the rare moment of being open (or distracted) enough to notice the interconnectedness of things and events.

when that moment occurs, whatever happens to be taking place will feel synchronistic.
which it is. always. why wouldn't it be?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

a synchronicity is a feeling one gets; difficult to put into words; akin to de-ja-vu because of being a feeling more than a rational event. Its the noticing; the focusing, on a particular sequence of events that announces its significance in a personly appealing way.

I don't think that's the way the word is used by people who believe in synchronicity. It's put forth as an alternative to mere coincidence, and as such it is actually an explanation for events.

Even in the way you worded it here, it's unclear whether you think the events are inherently meaningful (you suggest that when you say "a particular sequence of events that announces its significance"). If that's so, then you are also using synchronicity as an explanation for how the universe works rather than merely a description of a feeling (like deja vu).

Speaking of deja vu, I'm quite sure we've gone over all this at least once before in this thread.

 

[cyborg]

a synchronicity is a feeling one gets; difficult to put into words; akin to de-ja-vu because of being a feeling more than a rational event. Its the noticing; the focusing, on a particular sequence of events that announces its significance in a personly appealing way.

So synchronicity is just the human feeling of magic being in the world because the individual can't see how the trick is done?

Sounds about right.

 

[Lusikka]

Imagine if PK were real! You actually have the power to manipulate objects with PSI power alone. What would you do with this incredible ability?

Definitely bend spoons. . . and keys.

PSI is not a practical problem but it is a challenge for current scientific world view. I know - you don't agree.

(So should we ask the mods to split off all this PK and PSI stuff from the synchronicity thread?)

Sorry for the disturbance. But we had a lively discussion! Rock on!

 

[Kuko 4000]

Lusikka, good to see you again

I have wondered about one thing for some time.

Assumption 1: You believe in PSI and paranormal spoon bending (PSB). At least you believe enough in them that you have used many years (maybe over 30 years) of your life trying to unveil the mystery. You have done lots of research in this area.

Assumption 2: You don't believe in homeopathy. You have not spend any notable amount of time (compared to the time you have used researching PSI and PSB) trying to unveil the mystery of homeopathy.

Question: Do you think the evidence for PSI and PSB is of significantly better quality than the evidence for homeopathy?

 

[Marshmallow]

I came across this site recently and I'm really scared. I don't want this scary occult conspiracy stuff to be true, but how do you explain this?

http://www.scoreboard-canada.com/articles-555numerology.htm

How do you write this off as coincidence? It does seem like they're using numerology somehow.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

True story, this happened two days ago but it's only after reading this thread I realise the significance.

1)During the morning I was was talking to a colleague who commented on how few people have brought in shared treats (his exact wording refered to chocolate) since we moved offices a few months ago. Strangely I had been think the same thing a few minutes before.

2) At lunch I was talking to the guy who sits next to me and the subject of his potentially fatal peanut allergy came up.

3) Almost immediately after we got back from lunch an eamil came around the office saying that a third colleague had brought back sweets from a trip to New York. When I went for a coffee, what sweets were in there? Rheeses' Peanut Butter Cups!!!

The odds against this must be astronomical. First that something I had been thinking about is mentioned, then that an event that we were saying hasn't been happening happens immediately after we comment on it. That it ties in with my conversation with another colleague who happens to have a specific medical condition, spooky!

For American readers, I live in the UK and peanut butter cups are quite a rare sight over here. Rare enough that someone would bring this pack back 3500 miles to share with the office anyway.

I think it's obvious to even the most fanatical reductionist 'skeptic' (yes I'm looking at YOU Joe!) that the universe is telling me to kill my co-worker. He does have an annoying habit of singing at his desk so i don't think anyone will mind too much. My question to the more mystically sensitive is-: Do I have to get some more Rheeses Peanut Butter Cups to do it (perhaps someone could send me some?) Or will any peanut based snack do? Alternately, could I just pop a cap in his ass as I think it would be a lot less trouble?

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I came across this site recently and I'm really scared. I don't want this scary occult conspiracy stuff to be true, but how do you explain this?

<weak-as-water illuminati conspiracy nutjob numerology bs link>.

Scared of what? Scared of being accused of trolling?

 

[Belz...]

a synchronicity is a feeling one gets; difficult to put into words; akin to de-ja-vu because of being a feeling more than a rational event. Its the noticing; the focusing, on a particular sequence of events that announces its significance in a personly appealing way.

luck of the draw. while the teapots are lining up in our minds, there's no doubt a number on a letter on the sidewalk somewhere that is your birthday. perhaps you stepped on it on your way to work. from this angle, synchronicity would be the feeling that comes with the rare moment of being open (or distracted) enough to notice the interconnectedness of things and events.

when that moment occurs, whatever happens to be taking place will feel synchronistic.
which it is. always. why wouldn't it be?

In other words its just a useless gut feeling.

 

[Belz...]

PSI is not a practical problem but it is a challenge for current scientific world view. I know - you don't agree.

Ah, so all those scientific tests were really rigged because evil dogmatic scientists don't want the truth coming out ?

 

[AdinDraco]

Oh dear, coincidences proves conspiracy....my trolldar is pinging so I'm off to perv on the religious threads. Seriously, no-one truly believes this do they?.....guys?.....guys? <very quietly leaves the room>

 

[quarky]

I don't think that's the way the word is used by people who believe in synchronicity. It's put forth as an alternative to mere coincidence, and as such it is actually an explanation for events.

Even in the way you worded it here, it's unclear whether you think the events are inherently meaningful (you suggest that when you say "a particular sequence of events that announces its significance"). If that's so, then you are also using synchronicity as an explanation for how the universe works rather than merely a description of a feeling (like deja vu).

Speaking of deja vu, I'm quite sure we've gone over all this at least once before in this thread.

Well, I merely tried for a definition. I'm not imposing rules on the universe that don't exist. How do we explain a sudden cold chill, or a moment of irrational fear? Do we say the feeling of fear wasn't real, even though it altered our blood pressure or pulse for a moment?

I don't think we look for synchronicity. Maybe some do.
I don't see it as a magical explanation for anything.
Its more like spotting the animals in a picture with hidden animals.

 

[Starthinker]

I agree with quarky and it's what I've been trying to say since the beginning of this thread. Imagine finding a penny while walking into the Wal Mart. No big deal. Then you find a penny in the parking lot at work and when you get home you find a penny in your driveway. Just a string a meaningless coincidences but one may get the idea that the universe is trying to tell you something. It may inspire that person to take some action, maybe buy a lottery ticket or some bonds. The point is, it wasn't about what the odds were that it happened, it's about the emotional response to the event.

Synchronicity isn't something that can be tested, it's just a feeling you can get from time to time. A feeling that just happens to be attached to a coincidence. I can see where someone who's never felt it might not get it and only think of the odds part.

As someone who's felt it full force many times I know it's quite illogical, but I also know it's just a feeling, and there is no reason to feel bad about it or try to hide it or think it's supernatural or act on it or think of it as anything other than just another emotion. When it happens to me I just sit back and enjoy it, it makes me feel a little better and lifts my mood, but so does a kitten or an ice cream cone. Yes, to some it can change their life and they will allow themselves to be dictated by it, but I, for one, won't rain on their parade as long as it's a positive change. I know this is a borderline subject because some people may visit a psychic and be changed forever by it, but then again someone may survive an accident and be changed forever by it. Sychronicity falls somewhere in the middle. It's a harmless woo unless taken to the extreme. I carry a good luck charm just because I like to, but I wouldn't count on it to save me from a speeding freight train. Feeling a little synchronicity now and then is okay but I wouldn't let it cause me to run through the streets naked.

ETA: The title of this thread is " How do you guys explain really bizarre cases of synchronicity?" and I guess what I'm trying to say is, "You don't."