Wormhole In The Bermuda Triangle?

[commandlinegamer]

Thanks, Mashuna, it's all clear now.

Questions for Eyeron:
Where exactly is the Bermuda Triangle?
Why do you think there's an observable phenomena in the Bermuda Triangle which needs an explanation?

I don't think it needs explanation but it's very observable:

http://uk.imdb.com/character/ch0000266/

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

"Myth 1.
<snip>
Fact. 1

Wrong:

Does the Bermuda Triangle really exist?
The Bermuda Triangle or Devil’s Triangle is a mythical geographic area located off the southeastern coast of the United States. It is noted for an apparent high incidence of unexplained losses of ship, small boats, and aircraft.

The Coast Guard does not recognize the existence of the so-called Bermuda Triangle as a geographic area of specific hazard to ships or planes. In a review of many aircraft and vessel losses in the area over the years, there has been nothing discovered that would indicate that casualties were the result of anything other than physical causes. No extraordinary factors have ever been identified.

Linky.

The "Bermuda Triangle" or "Devil's Triangle" is an imaginary area located off the southeastern Atlantic coast of the United States of America, which is noted for a supposedly high incidence of unexplained disappearances of ships and aircraft. The apexes of the triangle are generally believed to be Bermuda; Miami, Florida; and San Juan, Puerto Rico. The US Board of Geographic Names does not recognize the Bermuda Triangle as an official name. The US Navy does not believe the Bermuda Triangle exists. It is reported that Lloyd's of London, the world's leading market for specialist insurance, does not charge higher premiums for vessels transiting this heavily traveled area.

The most famous US Navy losses which have occurred in the area popularly known as the Bermuda Triangle are USS Cyclops in March 1918 and the aircraft of Flight 19 in December 1945. The ship probably sank in an unexpected storm, and the aircraft ran out of fuel and crashed into the ocean -- no physical traces of them have ever been found. Another well known disappearance is the civilian tanker SS Marine Sulphur Queen carrying bulk molten sulfur which sank in February 1963. Although the wreck of Marine Sulphur Queen has not been located, a life preserver and other floating artifacts were recovered. These disappearances have been used to provide credence to the popular belief in the mystery and purported supernatural qualities of the "Bermuda Triangle."

Linky.

So I submit the U.S. Coast Guard and the U.S. Navy against your submission from a website called "bermuda-triangle.org". For that matter, my previous cite from PBS is more reliable than yours.

Try again. (Next time use quote tags when you're quoting a big block of text.)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

At some point I'd have to ask about the possibilities of wormholes, too. I know that mathematically they are possible but the reality of their existance or mechanism for their creation...isn't that pretty shakey?

And, if they're even possible, my understanding is that mathematics say they would require incredibly huge amounts of energy to open.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

And yet another source of the Lloyd's of London cite. This time from the U.S. Geological Survey:

Is there a mystery regarding sinking of ships in the Bermuda Triangle?

No. I was involved in a television program called "The Bermuda Triangle" that was shown in Britain in about 1992 on Channel 4, the Equinox Programme and that was produced by John Simmons of Geofilms. At that time the producers checked with Lloyds of London to learn whether an unusually large number of ships had sunk in the triangle. They determined that large numbers of ships had not sunk there.

The mystery of the Bermuda Triangle is a fairy tale. Sorry.

Bill Dillon - Geologist, USGS

Linky.

 

[Rodney]

And yet another source of the Lloyd's of London cite. This time from the U.S. Geological Survey:
Linky.

Yes, another cite with no documentation whatever. Let me know if you ever find any. In the meantime, contemplate this statement by Gian Quasar, who has extensively investigated the Bermuda Triangle: "NTSB database searches reveal that in the last decade only a handful of aircraft disappearances have occurred off New England while over 30 have happened in the Triangle."

 

[Christian Klippel]

Yes, another cite with no documentation whatever. Let me know if you ever find any. In the meantime, contemplate this statement by Gian Quasar, who has extensively investigated the Bermuda Triangle: "NTSB database searches reveal that in the last decade only a handful of aircraft disappearances have occurred off New England while over 30 have happened in the Triangle."

You forgot to give some crucial information here. That is: how many aircraft per year pass over New England, and how many pass over the "triangle", in the same period of time?

Without that your quote is absolutely meaningless. For example, flying is quite safe if you compare the total number of passengers per year to the number of people injured and died by airplane accidents over the same period of time.

However, if you only take the number of injured and dead people for a single accident, it is much worse than for a single car accident for example.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Elvis666]

And, if they're even possible, my understanding is that mathematics say they would require incredibly huge amounts of energy to open.

The article I read said that to keep them open would probably require an application of exotic matter, matter with negative mass, which isn't known to exist.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Yes, another cite with no documentation whatever. Let me know if you ever find any.

I cited the U.S. Navy, The U.S. Coast Guard and the U.S. Geological Survey.

You cited "bermuda-triangle.org".

In the meantime, contemplate this statement by Gian Quasar, who has extensively investigated the Bermuda Triangle: "NTSB database searches reveal that in the last decade only a handful of aircraft disappearances have occurred off New England while over 30 have happened in the Triangle."

Already contemplated, and already answered. You expect to have more crashes/sinkings where there is more traffic.

By the way, who is Gian Quasar and why should I care what he thinks? What was the nature of his extensive investigations?

ETA: I've looked at the NTSB database, and I don't even see how the search Gian Quasar claims to have done is offered. http://ntsb.gov/aviation/Stats.htm And I see no record anywhere of "disappearance" as a category.

 

[Outback Jack]

"NTSB database searches reveal that in the last decade only a handful of aircraft disappearances have occurred off New England while over 30 have happened in the Triangle. These are American statistics only, and do not reflect other nationalities.

When reading this, you also have to keep some geography in mind. All of The Bahamas is in the "Bermuda Triangle" and those islands lie just a short distance from Florida which has a LOT of general aviation traffic. To the best of my knowledge, there's not many places to fly to off the coast of New England. (BTW, how big is "off New England"?)

I've spent a lot of time flying in the Bahamas and I'd bet money that there's more over-water traffic there than "off New England".

 

[Eyeron]

Eyeron, your "simple" question implied one or more assumptions. Part of critical thinking is examining such unspoken assumptions.

So then how should I have phrased it for you to approve of it without these implications?

See this is the problem I'm having with responses like this, I can just see this kind of thing in a classroom in which a student asks a question like this and gets this kind of response:

"Your question is not worthy of my attention because you phrased it the wrong way and have to phrase it in a specific way before I can even consider giving an answer to it and then you have to provide me with additional five hundred words essay to back your question up otherwise it is a fruitless endeavor to answer an invalid question and because it is invalid it should be ridiculed."

With which of course, I suspect the teacher would be fired. Yes I know this is a discussion forum and not a classroom.

And even if people truly are not exactly saying this, this is how these kinds of responses will come across to people. Ordinary people go by how people sound rather than what people specifically say.

 

[Belz...]

now get out of my face and let other posters answer my question. Any more junk and i will put you on ignore.

Oh NOOOO!!!!

 

[ben m]

So then how should I have phrased it for you to approve of it without these implications?

A typical JREF thread:

Eyeron: "Is it possible that bermuda triangle disappearances are caused by a wormhole"
Someone: "No, because there are no bermuda triangle disappearances."
Eyeron: "I (agree/disagree) for (reasons). More generally, though, I wanted to know: could wormholes ever just make things disappear? (feeds discussion)."
Everyone: "(discussion)"

An atypical thread:

Eyeron: "Is it possible that bermuda triangle disappearances are caused by a wormhole"
Magic person with ESP: "I can read your mind, so although the text of your question is about the Bermuda Triangle you really wanted to spark a general discussion of wormholes."
Everyone: "(discussion)"

Actual mindreaders are pretty scarce around here, perhaps Randi has scared them all off. (Or: they've read his mind and know that TEH CHALLENG IZ A FRAUD). So the first example is a what most threads look like.

 

[Eyeron]

Ben, I assure you, I truly was not trying to sound like the second paragraph. I apologize if I did come across that way.

And as far as mind readers go, intelligent people should be able to get past the way a question was phrased and address the point.

 

[Psi Baba]

"Your question is not worthy of my attention because you phrased it the wrong way and have to phrase it in a specific way before I can even consider giving an answer to it and then you have to provide me with additional five hundred words essay to back your question up otherwise it is a fruitless endeavor to answer an invalid question and because it is invalid it should be ridiculed."

Wow, talk about a strawman argument! No one here has said anything even remotely like that to you. People are simply pointing out that theories attempting to "explain disappearances in the Bermuda Triangle" (with the understanding that you are not claiming the wormhole theory as your own, or even claiming that it's correct, but that you came across it and merely wanted to generate discussion about it) presuppose that there is a Bermuda Triangle effect to begin with. No one is saying your question isn't worthy of our attention, but rather that the question seems to be addressing a problem that hasn't been proven to exist. The same type of response occurs when someone offers a "theory" as to what kind of creature Bigfoot is, or an explanation of how telepathy works. It's simply putting the cart before the horse.

The entire Bermuda Triangle body of literature has always been devoted to retelling the stories (often very inaccurately) and finding explanations for the so-called phenomenon, and no one, until recently, ever took the time to look into all of the stories to determine if there ever was a mysterious phenomenon at all. It turns out that there never was.

A personal anecdote: This is the kind of thing that drew me into skepticism in the first place. I used to be intrigued by "mysteries" like the Bermuda Triangle, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, and similar phenomena. It wasn't so much that I believed in the paranormal--I always figured these things had scientific explanations, and therefore, it was just a matter of time until they were worked out. When years and eventually decades went by with virtually no new data or evidence whatsoever, it became apparent that the whole problem was not that the mysteries couldn't be solved, but that they weren't mysteries to begin with.

 

[godless dave]

And even if people truly are not exactly saying this, this is how these kinds of responses will come across to people. Ordinary people go by how people sound rather than what people specifically say.

"Ordinary" people? Or people who have not been trained in critical thinking? I think you're selling ordinary people short.

How can you have a meaningful discussion if you don't go by what people specifically say?

And as far as mind readers go, intelligent people should be able to get past the way a question was phrased and address the point.

The way a question is phrased determines what the point is.

 

[Eyeron]

How can you have a meaningful discussion if you don't go by what people specifically say?

I don't know how to answer that question.

 

[Mashuna]

Ben, I assure you, I truly was not trying to sound like the second paragraph. I apologize if I did come across that way.

And as far as mind readers go, intelligent people should be able to get past the way a question was phrased and address the point.

I'm not trying to stir things up here, but that's harder than you think. When people addressed your specific words, you want them to ignore the phrasing and get to what you consider to be the real point. When they then try to guess what your real point is, you don't seem to like that either:

I am not a scientist nor am I an academic nor am I an overly verbose kind of person.

As such, I do not have to state my questions in a five thousand word essay in order to get my point across.

I did not state any of those things you say I stated. I am not interested in hearing any more junk from you.

And I reported you for trolling.

Now get out of my face and let other posters answer my question. Any more junk and I will put you on ignore.

 

[Upchurch]

Ordinary people go by how people sound rather than what people specifically say.

But you weren't saying anything.

And before you dismiss this as another semantic argument, try actually listening to what people are telling you.

When we talk to one another, we convey all sorts of unspoken context: body language, intonation, rhythm, etc. which allows us to look beyond the literal interpretation of the words used to get to the meaning.

In a written format, such as this one, all those layers of complexity are stripped away leaving only the words you actually use (and some minor emoticons, in the form of smilies).

So, before you get too indignant about people not being able to extract your meaning, maybe you should consider that the problem might not be with everyone else.

 

[blutoski]

In fact, planes "disappear" in this context by crashing (ETA: or running out of fuel because they were lost or whatever) over the ocean and sinking. No mystery at all. We don't expect to find the wreckage.

So even if the wormhole thing were possible and true, the plane is already "disappeared" before the underwater wormhole eats the sinking wreckage. So on that level, the wormhole hypothesis is unnecessary as well.

Sure, but my understanding of the dominant bermuda triangle claims is that allegedly an extaordinary number of planes are dropping out of the sky within the perimeter, rather than an ordinary number of planes are crashing, and they mystery is that we can't locate the wreckage.

Temporarily suspending disbelief about the very plausibility of submarine wormholes for the sake of discussion, a submarine wormhole might explain absence of some wreckage, but it's hard to picture how it could down the plane in the first place.

 

[Wolrab]

Sure, but my understanding of the dominant bermuda triangle claims is that allegedly an extaordinary number of planes are dropping out of the sky within the perimeter, rather than an ordinary number of planes are crashing, and they mystery is that we can't locate the wreckage.

Temporarily suspending disbelief about the very plausibility of submarine wormholes for the sake of discussion, a submarine wormhole might explain absence of some wreckage, but it's hard to picture how it could down the plane in the first place.

With my limited knowledge of wormholes and black holes, wouldn't a wormhole in an ocean (with matter continuously streaming in) emit massive amounts (easily measurable) of radiation, along the lines of an accretion disc around a black hole?

On another note, Lloyd's of London insures ships piloted by professionals (I would think they wouldn't even consider insuring a shipment of oil for Fine, Howard, and Fine Shipping). If there were anomalous disappearances, wouldn't they notice a greater number of mysterious disappearances?

The stuff Lloyds does not cover would be non professional (amateur) and have an increased likelihood of being piloted by less experienced people, even gadflies. A higher number of problems would seem to be expected with smaller craft with less experienced crew.