Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[babbits]

Doc claims we don't quote his logical, er, slip-ups.

I'm quoting from his first post in this thread:

"The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves. For example some passages portray the disciples as dim-witted, uncaring, and cowards."

That they made self-deprecating remarks is typical of writing and speaking to further a cult or a cause: "I was the worst drunk in the entire city, according to the cops who arrested me many times, until I joined A.A. and now I am saved."

SO. NOT EVIDENCE OF THE TRUTH OF THE N.T. Just evidence that to show oneself as depraved and then cured is a powerful way to win converts.

-------------
Reason #2

The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of Jesus.

For example in one passage someone call Jesus a drunkard, and in another He was called demon-possessed, another a deceiver.

It is deceitful as well as faulty to present this biblical quotation as you have done, Doc. The people who said these disparaging things about Jesus were his enemies, who were also calling him a blasphemer. So his followers quoted the disparaging remarks to prove that the Jews reviled and persecuted Jesusm: THIS WAS TO PROVE THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE PROPHECY OF THE 'SUFFERING SERVANT'.

So it's propaganda, not proof.

--------------
Reason #10

"The New Testament Writers Abandoned Their Long Held Sacred Beliefs and Practices, Adopted New Ones, And Did Not Deny Their Testimony Under Persecution Or Threat Of Death."

This proves the NT writers themselves believed that Jesus was the Messiah, or said they did; it doesn't prove that Jesus WAS the messiah.

This is the sort of thing we mean when we say that the NT 'evidence' is just hearsay, and therefore not compelling.

You could say the same of Charles Manson's followers. They BELIEVED Manson could do miracles, and even described one: the flying jeep.

But their belief is not "Evidence for why we know the Charles Manson biographers told the truth".

It's only evidence that they CLAIMED TO believe in the miracle, or even DID believe in the Manson miracles.

But logic rules don't demand that I must accept their statements as proof.

To put it another way, Doc, since you don't understand the logical criteria we refer to, your statements are reasons why you believe in the divinity of Jesus.

They are just your reasons. Because they are not logical, we have no need to accept your reasons.

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, I have talked about the number of Christians and the number of posts I've made. But I noticed you didn't leave any examples where I allegedly said they were evidence for my claim that the NT writers were telling the truth. And if you do try to give an example. give the post number where I explain myself.

Ah, sophistry. So, if your constant mentioning of numbers of posts, christians, bibles, etc. is not implicitly in support of the topic, why do you keep doing it? Surely you wouldn't want to be off-topic, would you?

 

[Simon39759]

So then you think these threads with over 100,000 hits each are low grade garbage?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95977

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120745

And what about these?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87993

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87993

Well, mostly, yes.
They are transparently attempted at making some point in favour of Christian apologetism and fell far so far of the mark as to befuddle the usual laws of ballistic.

The current thread, to give you an example, appeared since the first page to be pointless and wrong-headed and its premise was debunked in but the two very first answers.
Since then, it has been moving along, running pathetically in every direction but the truth's, like a head-less chicken. People, alarmed by the gurgling clucks, have gathered around and tried to put the poor creature out of its misery. And yet, despite these efforts, you keep on resurrecting the thread like an foul, evil, necromantic colonel Sanders with an unspeakable fowl-related fetish.
It is quite sad, really and certainly not convincing.

 

[joobz]

So then you think these threads with over 100,000 hits each are low grade garbage?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95977

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120745

And what about these?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87993

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87993

I'm sorry, but I must revoke your Logic 101 grade of a D and instead give you an F. This change reflects your continual insistance to use appeal to numbers fallacy.

 

[joobz]

If not... try (re?)reading post #2
Oh dear... how sad...

1. "Science" doesn't claim that we come from a single one celled organism.
2. I'm willing to guess that 91.432342% of all atheists know that science doesn't claim that we all come from a single one celled organism. The remaining athiests are still too busy filling their diapers with poop to weigh in on the subject.

Hee hee.
I forgot I wrote that. I'm funny.

 

[six7s]

I'm funny.

Yep!

But looks ain't everything, old bean

 

[pakeha]

Ah, sophistry. So, if your constant mentioning of numbers of posts, christians, bibles, etc. is not implicitly in support of the topic, why do you keep doing it? Surely you wouldn't want to be off-topic, would you?

My thought as well.

 

[DOC]

Reason #2

The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of Jesus.

For example in one passage someone call Jesus a drunkard, and in another He was called demon-possessed, another a deceiver.

It is deceitful as well as faulty to present this biblical quotation as you have done, Doc. The people who said these disparaging things about Jesus were his enemies, who were also calling him a blasphemer. So his followers quoted the disparaging remarks to prove that the Jews reviled and persecuted Jesusm: THIS WAS TO PROVE THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE PROPHECY OF THE 'SUFFERING SERVANT'.

So it's propaganda, not proof.

You must remember that my post #1 is just me trying to compact the 22 page chapter that Geisler and Turek wrote into one post.

They left other embarrassing and difficult sayings of Jesus that I left out of post one.

For example Jesus cursing the fig tree is embarrassing and this was not said by an enemy it was said by a gospel writer. And the verse where Jesus seems to say that the end of the world would come in a generation is a difficult saying. Why would a gospel writer who knew the end of the world did not come in a human generation of 20 years write this down. It doesn't make sense for a writer to make up something like this unless it was true... It should be noted there are at least 2 explanations for this verse and the word generation. These have already been mentioned.

People should read the whole 22 page chapter regarding the topic in post 1 and not just rely on me trying to summarize it. People in the US can read most of chapter 11 on the following site. People outside the US will have to get the book to do so.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PC...resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[Cleon]

DOC...In what way are "embarrassing" stories about Jesus evidence that the NT is true? Lots of fiction involves a flawed hero.

 

[DOC]

So then you think these threads with over 100,000 hits each are low grade garbage?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95977

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120745

And what about these?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87993

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87993

I'm sorry, but I must revoke your Logic 101 grade of a D and instead give you an F. This change reflects your continual insistance to use appeal to numbers fallacy.

Of course you ignored the main purpose of my post which was to demonstrate the threads that should not be considered being low grade garbage and concentrated on me giving the post counts of two of them. This was done to show if the threads are garbage then the people responsible for the 100,000+ hits must like low grade garbage.

The threads I've posted in response to a person who criticized my threads speak for themselves, now back to this thread.

 

[DOC]

DOC...In what way are "embarrassing" stories about Jesus evidence that the NT is true? Lots of fiction involves a flawed hero.

It would seem logical to assume that Messiahs from God shouldn't do embarrassing things. So if you're going to make up a story about a Messiah that you know people like St. Stephen have died for, it would seem likely you wouldn't give him flaws like cursing fig trees and making what seems to be an incorrect prophecy. That is unless you were insistent on telling the truth no matter how unflattering it made your Messiah seem.

 

[Hokulele]

It would seem logical to assume that Messiahs from God shouldn't do embarrassing things. So if you're going to make up a story about a Messiah that you know people like St. Stephen have died for, it would seem likely you wouldn't give him flaws like cursing fig trees and making what seems to be incorrect prophecies. That is unless you were insistent on telling the truth.

Harry Potter.

 

[Akhenaten]

Of course you ignored the main purpose of my post which was to demonstrate the threads that should not be considered being low grade garbage and concentrated on me giving the post counts of two of them. This was done to show if the threads are garbage then the people
responsible for the 100,000+ hits must like low grade garbage.

You don't get to tell us what we should and shouldn't consider garbage.

As the manufacturer, all you can do is make the best garbage you can and put it out there to speak for itself and for all to see.


And they do, which is why it's been pointed out to you that the threads aren't low-grade garbage, just your contributions.

The threads I've posted in response to a person who criticized my threads speak for themselves, now back to this thread.

Garbage. And the main derailer of this thread is in front of your monitor, not ours, by the way.

 

[Akhenaten]

It would seem logical to assume that Messiahs from God shouldn't do embarrassing things.

Says who?

So if you're going to make up a story about a Messiah that you know people like St. Stephen have died for, it would seem likely you wouldn't give him flaws like cursing fig trees and making what seems to be an incorrect prophecy.

How do you know what people would be likely to put in a story? Are you a mind reader? Of long-dead minds at that.

That is unless you were insistent on telling the truth.

What?

 

[joobz]

It would seem logical to assume that Messiahs from God shouldn't do embarrassing things. So if you're going to make up a story about a Messiah that you know people like St. Stephen have died for, it would seem likely you wouldn't give him flaws like cursing fig trees and making what seems to be an incorrect prophecy. That is unless you were insistent on telling the truth.

Hercules
Theseus
Jason




DOC, Obviously, you know nothing of good story telling.

ETA:
Achilles
Oedipus Rex
The Gunslinger (Stephen King)
Medea
Vampire Lestat
Spiderman
Superman
Batman
Green Lantern
Silver Surfer
Woverine
Professor X
Cyclops
The Watchmen

 

[joobz]

Of course you ignored the main purpose of my post which was to demonstrate the threads that should not be considered being low grade garbage

So to prove this point you are...

and concentrated on me giving the post counts of two of them.

appealing to numbers.

If there was a grade lower than F for Logic 101, I would be forced to give it to you.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

If there was a grade lower than F for Logic 101, I would be forced to give it to you.

F- ?

 

[DOC]

Hercules
Theseus
Jason




DOC, Obviously, you know nothing of good story telling.

ETA:
Achilles
Oedipus Rex
The Gunslinger (Stephen King)
Medea
Vampire Lestat
Spiderman
Superman
Batman
Green Lantern
Silver Surfer
Woverine
Professor X
Cyclops
The Watchmen

How many of those were Messiahs? How many had historians write of them as actual people? How many had thousands of historical people die for them? And how many had almost all of the US presidents proclaim their belief in their teachings?

 

[joobz]

How many of those were Messiahs?

Appeal to numbers fallacy 1
Most fit the messiah concept. (Notice I only selected "Heros")

How many had historians write of them as actual people?

I don't know. I don't know why it's relevant.
Appeal to numbers fallacy 2.
Please note that the greek heros almost all had cult followings to them.

How many had thousands of historical people die for them?

I don't know. I don't know why it's relevant.
Appeal to numbers fallacy 3

And how many had almost all of the US presidents proclaim their belief in their teachings?

Appeal to numbers fallacy 4.

This last one is just pathetic.

I'm convinced that you never took a course on logic.

ETA:

Your original claim

It would seem logical to assume that Messiahs from God shouldn't do embarrassing things. So if you're going to make up a story about a Messiah that you know people like St. Stephen have died for, it would seem likely you wouldn't give him flaws like cursing fig trees and making what seems to be an incorrect prophecy. That is unless you were insistent on telling the truth no matter how unflattering it made your Messiah seem.

I gave multiple examples of messiah like characters completely invented that have flaws.

This contradicts your argument and Reason #3 given by Geisler. The numbers fallacy you make is completely irrelevant. Indeed, it is actually an argument you give in support of Jesus being the son of god.

In other words, your attempt to use that fallacy here as support of this Reason and in support of Jesus results in a special pleading circular argument loop-D-loop.


Authors give embarressing of Jesus => Christianity is most likely the one true religion => Many presidents believed in christianity (because it is the one true religion) => authors giving embaressing details of Jesus are special case (and not a fallacy) => Christianity is most likely the one true religion => Many presidents believing in christianity is a special case (and not a fallacy) =>

 

[Akhenaten]

How many of those were Messiahs? How many had historians write of them as actual people? How many had thousands of historical people die for them? And how many had almost all of the US presidents proclaim their belief in their teachings?

The same number that are in the Bible.

Hint:

1. Start at 0.

2. Stop counting.