9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Skeptic]

No need to apologize. Sarcasm has a tendency to not work on the internet. That's because no matter how obviously absurd something you say seems to you, someone said it in earnest.

I mean, I'll bet significant money that there's an internet web page somewhere, by Jews, claiming not only that Jews control the world, but that this proves their inherent superiority -- and unlike me, saying it in earnest.

 

[Nonpareil]

No need to apologize. Sarcasm has a tendency to not work on the internet. That's because no matter how obviously absurd something you say seems to you, someone said it in earnest.

I mean, I'll bet significant money that there's an internet web page somewhere, by Jews, claiming not only that Jews control the world, but that this proves their inherent superiority -- and unlike me, saying it in earnest.

Don't worry, though. After a while you start to learn which posters use sarcasm and which don't. I'm definitely one of the less serious posters.



Anyway, welcome to both Bluespace and Matthew! Great to have you with us, and that was quite a nice first few posts if I do say so myself.

ETA: 9/11-investigator is, on the other hand, much more serious. Just when you think he must be joking, he goes on to prove that he really does believe all the bull he's been spouting. One thing to watch out for when arguing with him is the appeal to authority and the TTD - the Total Topic Derail. He'll either link to another denialist, who likewise has no evidence for their claims - the last YouTube video he posted, for example - or just ignore you entirely and change the subject - like he did with Himmler's speech when I brought it up. He still hasn't responded to it.

 

[Arkyrion]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You're ignoring the pictures, documents, testimonies and admissions. What MORE do you want ?

I believe that 9/11 will be satisfied that the Holocaust truly happened when he sees a video recorded confession from Hitler and the top SS officers, along with written and video statements from the Mr. and Mrs. Hitler, and the doctor that delivered him, stating that the Hitler in the video is in fact Hitler and not some Jewish pawn who looks like him, with this process repeated for each of the SS officers present.

And I'm still not entirely sure that he'd even accept that.

 

[Simon39759]

Not, time travelling Jews in disguise impersonating Hitler to make him look bad.

It's not about the truth, it's about apologetics.

 

[dudalb]

I believe that 9/11 will be satisfied that the Holocaust truly happened when he sees a video recorded confession from Hitler and the top SS officers, along with written and video statements from the Mr. and Mrs. Hitler, and the doctor that delivered him, stating that the Hitler in the video is in fact Hitler and not some Jewish pawn who looks like him, with this process repeated for each of the SS officers present.

And I'm still not entirely sure that he'd even accept that.

He won't. He will say it was faked.

 

[9/11-investigator]

I suggest -and I'm by no means the first- that Bishop Williamson starts his search for victims of nazi gassing with the name Menachem Taffel and the number 107969.

Why make a quiz out of it? Why don't you simply state what you have to say about mr Taffel?

Within minutes Bishop Williamson will have found not just one man who was gassed but he will also have discovered that the rest of Menachem Taffel's family was murdered.
His wife Klara and his daughter Ester. If you deny that, tell me where they are now? Where did they go from the Auschwitz-Birkenau ramp, if not to the gas chamber on March 12, 1943?

Give us the link, we pray. Please.

Within minutes "Die Namen der Nummern" will have revealed dozens of names and connections to thousands of other gassed people. Hans-Joachim Lang's work isn't finished but he did publish how he connected the dots left in the original records and writings by previous researchers. His book and website are easy to find for anyone still struggling with the not-one-gassing victim threshold. So the goal posts move. Now every death must be recorded with such detail, according to deniers.

Revisionists are just trying to make it easy on you to come up with just one name. I'll advise you to contact Bradley Smith and collect your fee, provided you can back up your claims.

Millions of victims remain anonymous and their individual deaths are perhaps not recorded with the same documentary detail that Pressac and Lang o.a. managed to uncover for Menachem Taffel's gassing at Natzweiler-Struthof by Josef Kramer but does that mean the other victims don't count in the Bishop's straw man of 6 million gassed victims? Do you really need the exact path taken by each individual if that path is known for thousands of almost identical but unrecognized arrivals at Auschwitz? Does the nazi ploy to rob these people of their identity absolve them from criminal responsibility in their death. The logical opposite really is for you to describe in as much detail as exists for arrivals what the Auschwitz departures were like for the people currently listed as dead.

Wow, wait a minute, Natzweiler-Struthof you say? That camp located in France next to a quarry where Speer wanted to retrieve his granite from to realize his grand vision of Germania? Gassed you say? Are we entering new territory here? Do you really want to do this to yourself? Making a fool of yourself in post 2 already?

I read a book called 'Europa, Europa' from a well-known Dutch journalist W.L. 'boebie' Brugsma. He was there. He did not say anything about gas chambers in Natzweiler. Today the tale is restricted to 6 so-called extermination camps in Poland. Natzweiler is certainly not one of them.

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/libcamps.shtml
In December 1944 US Army officers Colonel Paul Kirk and Lt. Colonel Edward J. Gully inspected the German concentration camp at Struthof-Natzweiler in Alsace. They submitted their findings to their superiors, who subsequently forwarded their report to the US War Crimes Division. While, significantly, the full text of their report has never been published, it has been revealed, by a historian supportive of Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were careful to characterize equipment exhibited to them by French informants as a "so-called lethal gas chamber," and to claim it was "allegedly used as a lethal gas chamber." [15] (Emphasis added)

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/gaschambers.shtml
Today, one can see the alleged "gas chamber" of Struthof-Natzweiler and in the same place one can also read the unbelievable "confession" of Kramer. This "gas chamber," which is designated as an "historical monument," is a complete fraud. The slightest amount of critical spirit will be sufficient to convince oneself that a gassing in this small room, without any sealing whatsoever, would have been a catastrophe for the executioner as well as for the people in the vicinity. In order to make this "gas chamber" (which is guaranteed to be "in its original condition") believable, someone has gone so for as to clumsily knock a hole into the thin wall with a chisel, and thereby break four tiles. The hole was so arranged that Josef Kramer would have dumped through it the mysterious "salts" (about which he could give no further details and which, when mixed with a little water, killed within one minute!). How could salts and water make such a gas? How could Kramer have prevented the gas from coming back out the hole? How could he see his victims from a hole which would have let him see no more than half the room? How did he ventilate the room before opening the rudimentary door, made from rough-cut lumber? Perhaps one must ask the civil engineering firm in Saint-Michel sur-Meurthe (Vosges), which after the war altered the place which today is presented to visitors "in its original condition"?

If the nazis really were trying to limit death from disease then why did the trains keep going to Auschwitz for years? Why not seal and quarantine the entire compound and keep people away from it? 68 trains from Westerbork to Auschwitz until September 3, 1944. There was no typhus in the Netherlands when they left. Why send those Dutch (primarily) Jews from Westerbork there of all places if resettlement was truly the goal and typhus really was as rampant at Auschwitz as deniers want to claim it was?

Nobody says that Auschwitz was a picnic. The treatment of the Jews was harsh, brutal. The Germans were hardly concerned with the wellbeing of the Jews. The wanted them out, regardless of the conditions in the camps.

How many of the dead at Dresden are known by name? Has Richard Krege gone to the Heidefriedhof to determine if their mass grave really contains remains of open air cremations? If not what is he waiting for. Afraid the grave may be empty? Dresden just a Hoax?

Have deniers gone to take samples of the ashes in Dresden? That way they could nitpick some more and resort to statements that "the remains at Belzec are too coarse and could not possibly have resulted from the same method of body disposal" as the burning on the Dresdner Altmarkt. That -with only slight exaggeration- is the level where Holocaust denial stands at this point. Nitpicking irrelevancies. Offering alternatives that aren't.

35,000 people were said to be identified, meaning: known by name. Krege does not do that because nobody and I mean really nobody, not even you or Skeptic, deny that Dresden was bombed. There are no Dresden deniers. Nobody likes to make a fool of himself.

I also suggest that Bishop Williamson reads "A Study of the Cyanide Compounds Content in the walls of the Gas Chambers in the Former Auschwitz and Birkenau Concentration Camps. by Markiewicz, Gubala, Labetz - Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow 1994", and the many excellent reports written by people such as Richard J. Green.

Explaining not just that residue of poison gas was still present in the ruins of these gas chambers but that there are no physical obstructions to the operation of these facilities for homicidal gassing. Leuchter even "forgot" what Rudolf tries to trivialize. The collection of cyanide residue from the ventilation system of Brikenau Krema in 1945. Why still cite Leuchter 2 decades after better reports were published? Ignorance from poor researching skills or politically motivated willful ignorance appear to me the only two options in this Leuchter situation.

Don't waste your time, dear Bishop.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p-3_Rudolf.html
To summarize the extremely unscientific and politically biased approach of Markiewicz and his co-workers:

1. The most important task of a scientist is to try to understand what hasn't been understood. The investigators from the Jan Sehn Institute for Forensic Research in Krakow did just the opposite: they chose to ignore and to exclude what they didn't understand (the formation of Prussian blue in walls exposed to hydrogen cyanide).
2. The next important task of a scientist is to discuss other scientists' attempts to understand something. The Krakow team did just the opposite: they chose to ignore and to exclude from discussion all that might let them (and others) understand how Prussian blue can be formed.
3. These choices allowed them to employ methods that would produce the results desired.
4. They suppressed whichever results didn't fit their purposes.
5. Finally, they admitted that the purpose of their research was not to seek truth, but to contribute to the continued disrepute of the long defunct Adolf Hitler.

 

[9/11-investigator]

or just ignore you entirely and change the subject - like he did with Himmler's speech when I brought it up. He still hasn't responded to it.

This was already discussed here, but the Johnny come Lately that you are, obviously missed that. Find it back yourself.

 

[9/11-investigator]

we don't seen the annihilation of all Goyim on the face of the Earth.

Why did you insert that grin smiley in my text you quote. It was not there originally.

 

[Thunder]

9-11 Investigator- why do you believe that 800,000 Rwandans could be killed with guns and hatchets in 3 months, but 5 or more million Jews could not be killed by a massive army, starvation, disease, and gas chambers, in 7 years?

please explain this logical discrepency.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Hi I'm Matthew and I normally post on the Skeptic Society's anti holocaust deniers webforum.

Welcome.

You said that you do not doubt Reichbahn transport records.

No I did not. I never mentioned Reichsbahn records in this thread. Or in the rest of my life. Can you provide a link to those records. I collect that kind of information for a future blog. Thanks in advance.

Neither do I. Can you explain if 870,000 people go off the train at the Treblina transit station what train they go onto? Neither Cohoh or IHR have been able to answer this.

Not the faintest idea. Maybe there were no 870,000 people. How do you know. I do know that the official story: 870,000 people killed, buried, dug up again and burned to ash cannot be true. Keyword Krege. Discussed earlier.

I also ask what happened to the 3,300,000 jews living in Poland in the pre war census that werre not there after 1945? You cannot claim they emigrated before the war if you also believe in the Reichsbahn transport records. The IHR and Codoh are unable to answer this question.

I do not know. Maybe they fled to the USSR before or during the German occupation (most German Jews fled Germany in the thirties), maybe large numbers went to Israel, US, Argentina, Australia or other destinations. Maybe they did not want to be Jews anymore and told the authorities they regarded themselves as catholic Poles.

Can you explain why the landscape changes at Treblinka concerning the cremation of "dead body" evidence as the Russians aproached. Are you are aware why the Russian were approaching Treblinka? ( Please read about Katyn and how the Russians wanted the evidence from Treblinka to soften the hard evidence that they executed the Polish officer class)

I understood from Krege that there were no 'landscape changes' (soil disturbances). The Russian were approaching Treblinka because they were moving westwards over a broad front. No way of avoiding Treblinka. It's simple topology. I am not aware of any connection between Kathyn and Treblinka.

Finally I would like you to explain Nuremberg Document NO-1257
Where do you think the clothes from Treblinka came from? Local donations from the Polish town?

Particularly illuminating is a report Pohl made to Himmler on 6 February 1943 containing a detailed list of items seized ( Treblinka). Among them were 221 train cars' worth of appropriated clothing sent to the Office for Germanisation, useless to the dead but otherwise essential to any who would have actually been transported to the east, i.e. none.

[...]2. Office for Germanization [VoMi]
Men's clothing:
overcoats - 99,000
jackets - 57,000
vests - 27,000
pants - 62,000
drawers - 38,000
shirts - 132,000
pullovers - 9,000
scarves - 2,000
pajamas - 6,000
collars - 10,000
gloves - 2,000 pairs
socks - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 31,000 pairs

Women's clothing:
coats - 155,000 pieces
dresses - 119,000 pieces
blouses - 30,000 pieces
pullovers - 60,000 pieces
drawers - 49,000 pieces
panties - 60,000 pieces
jackets - 26,000 pieces
shirts - 30,000 pieces
chemises - 125,000 pieces
pajamas - 27,000 pieces
aprons - 36,000 pieces
brassieres - 25,000 pieces
underwear - 22,000 pieces
kerchiefs - 85,000 pieces
shoes - 111,000 pieces

Children's clothing:
overcoats - 15,000
boys' jackets - 11,000
boys' pants - 3,000
shirts - 3,000
scarves - 4,000
pullovers - 1,000
drawers - 1,000
girls' dresses - 9,000
girls' chemises - 5,000
aprons - 2,000
drawers - 5,000
stockings - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 22,000 pairs

Never heard of that. I was in Auschwitz and saw similar exhibitions of suit cases, shoes and glasses, that could easily be explained from a death toll of 50,000 people dead as revisionists maintain. Do you have a source to that document/report?

 

[9/11-investigator]

9-11 Investigator- why do you believe that 800,000 Rwandans could be killed with guns and hatchets in 3 months, but 5 or more million Jews could not be killed by a massive army, starvation, disease, and gas chambers, in 7 years?

please explain this logical discrepency.

I never said it could not have been done. Germans are much more efficient people than Rwandans. But that does not mean that it happened. As I said before, my car is able to drive 300,000 miles in a year. In reality in tiny Holland I drive 10,000 miles a year. 'Production' is not equal capacity, pardon my expression.

 

[9/11-investigator]

The problem in numbers was a particular idiot called "David Irving" who based on the same documents made these hilarious claims over time.

David Irving is his real name. Why put it between double quotes? This 'idiot' once was the most celebrated historian of the WW2. Until he endorsed the Leuchter report.

In Irving's 1966 edition of The Destruction of Dresden the triple blow was ‘estimated authoritatively to have killed more than 135,000 of the population...’, but the ‘documentation suggests very strongly that the figure was certainly between a minimum of 100,000 and a maximum of 250,000.’

In Irving's 1971 edition the triple blow was ‘estimated authoritatively to have killed more than 100,000 of the population...’

In 1989 Irving told journalists whilst launching the ‘Leuchter Report’ in Britain that: ‘There were one million refugees in the streets of Dresden at the time that we burned Dresden to the ground, killing anything between 100,000 and 250,000 of them.’

In 1992 Irving told the Institute of Historical Review that ‘a hundred thousand people were killed [in Dresden] in a period of twelve hours by the British and Americans.’

In 1993, in a publicity video made for the Australian public, Irving stated that ‘over 130,000 people died in that particular air raid.’

In the 1995 edition of The Destruction of Dresden the figure was no longer authoritative and the attack had ‘cost the lives of between fifty and one hundred thousand inhabitants....’

In 1996 Irving had changed this figure yet again in his Goebbels: The Mastermind of the ‘Third Reich’, where he notes of the Dresden raids that ‘Between sixty and one hundred thousand people were choked to death or burned alive...’

He recently found new documentary evidence of German inter-authority communication (meaning that we can exclude propaganda motives), that is of people who had to deal with the situation, with reference to 135,000 dead. I don't understans the point you are trying to make. Do you want to make a point?

You must be proud that David Irving is "head" holocaust denier and has been proven a liar in court.

He is certainly not the 'head holocaust revisionist', and it is difficult to pinpoint him on a number. People like Zundel, Faurisson and Rudolf do qualify more for this title. It was Irving who sued and he lost. Pretty silly of him to expect that the holocaust can be treated like any other subject. Judge Gray certainly had praise for Irving as well, he did not just call him a liar. Very interesting is that the judge was surprised to learn how little evidence there is for supporting the extermination story.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/trial/judgment/extract1.html
"[Irving] is right to point out that the contemporaneous documents, such as drawings, plans, correspondence with contractors and the like, yield little clear evidence of the existence of gas chambers designed to kill humans. Such isolated references to the use of gas as are to be found amongst these documents can be explained by the need to fumigate clothes so as to reduce the incidence of diseases such as typhus. The quantities of Zyklon-B delivered to the camp may arguably be explained by the need to fumigate clothes and other objects."

As you can see judge Gray denies that documentary or forensic evidence exists for the gas chambers. I am not saying anything else.

Mind you, this is the judge who presided over one of the most high profile holocaust court cases ever. Can't you see how hopeless your case is?

Another gem from the judge: "I have to confess that, in common I suspect with most other people, I had supposed that the evidence of mass extermination of Jews in the gas chambers at Auschwitz was compelling. I have, however, set aside this preconception when assessing the evidence adduced by the parties in these proceedings."

Not very likely that 'Debbie' reproduced this quote on her blog.

 

[Thunder]

9-11 Investigator-

care to address my question?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

ETA: 9/11-investigator is, on the other hand, much more serious. Just when you think he must be joking, he goes on to prove that he really does believe all the bull he's been spouting.

Yes I can see that. Thankfully I buy many of the holocaust denial books as this lets me learn their techniques. The "elder statesmen" holocaust deniers avoid thier own forums as the less they talk the less likely they will slip up. However the "kiddie" holocaust deniers just follow the books.

One thing to watch out for when arguing with him is the appeal to authority and the TTD - the Total Topic Derail. He'll either link to another denialist, who likewise has no evidence for their claims - the last YouTube video he posted, for example - or just ignore you entirely and change the subject - like he did with Himmler's speech when I brought it up. He still hasn't responded to it.

I love it when they quote Nazi public speeches as "evidence". My favourite Nazi speech is about every german paying instalments to buy a volkwagen. The money was embezelled and used to manufacture the type 86 military kubelwagen . The Nazis were continually lying to their own people. The Nazi christmas Stalingrad radio broadcast was a complete fabrication.

 

[9/11-investigator]

I am tempted to put 9/11 Investigator on ignore, but I won't give the freaking bigot the satisfaction.

Nobody will miss you dudalb. Your 'contributions' are always one-liners containing some permutation du jour of words from the set: [bigot, anti-semite, other ADL/SPLC jargon]. By advocating to stop this thread you already made it clear that you recognize a defeat when you see one. You could not give me greater 'satisfaction'. My friendly advice: go, before you do even more damage to your case.

BTW: that picture in your avatar is that inspecteur Clouseau?

 

[9/11-investigator]

9-11 Investigator-

care to address my question?

Sure. Any question in particular?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Yes I can see that. Thankfully I buy many of the holocaust denial books as this lets me learn their techniques.

Revealing. Does not really sound like that you are a truthseeker who wants to learn something.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Anyway, the case was made 60 years ago at Nuremberg. Not once throughout these entire 50 odd pages have you even touched upon why the evidence presented there is wrong. You've constantly attacked the trial itself, saying it was a Jewish Motivated, Russian Revenge, Victors Justice type affair, but not once have you looked at or attacked the evidence. It'd be nice if you started doing that.

- I brought up the the ridiculous accusation made against the Germans (pedal driven skull basher). Trojan countered that it was not taken serious, but it is still part of the NMT documents.

- Pure_Argent came up with this french Jewish communist (but I repeat myself) Vaillant or something, who turned out to be one of the key-witnesses of the Auschwitz hearings (never heard of her). I countered that the American female judge made a private note (according to Samuel Sowell) that she hardly believed Vaillant stories. And most damning of all: there was no cross examination like in every regular trial. It's just a prisoner telling a story that is taken for the truth without asking questions. Hence my judgment that Nuremberg was a show trial, a farce. And if you accept the notion of victors 'justice' than you have no understanding of justice at all.

See this thread as a low-grade attemp to repeat the NMT.

 

[9/11-investigator]

What, has Skeptic already given up on his 'Dresden never happened' Bonanza? After one page?

No real staying power, this lad. Maybe not so superior as he thought after all.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Can you provide a link to those records. I collect that kind of information for a future blog. Thanks in advance.

Generally, historians dont use the internet. You will need to start with Wolfgang Sawdodny's "Deutsch Panzerzüge II" ( German armoured trains volume 2) ISBN0-88740-288-7 to see a summary of rail movements concerning Stroop's antipartisan train entering Warsaw and the rail movements of the victims to varios camps in Poland. The rail movement documents are listed so you may retrieve them yourself for Codoh or the IHR's library.

Not the faintest idea. Maybe there were no 870,000 people. How do you know. I do know that the official story: 870,000 people killed, buried, dug up again and burned to ash cannot be true. Keyword Krege. Discussed earlier.

Well holocaust deniers are not known for doing any research are they? Did you add up the number of mens, women and children's shoes on the list of clothing I posted? Did you reach a conclusion? Do you think the trains going to treblinka were going for fun? ( average number was 6,000 people a train) Have you checked how many days it took to burn the bodies at Dresden? The ratios match Codoh has not rebutal for this.

I do not know. Maybe they fled to the USSR before or during the German occupation (most German Jews fled Germany in the thirties), maybe large numbers went to Israel, US, Argentina, Australia or other destinations. Maybe they did not want to be Jews anymore and told the authorities they regarded themselves as catholic Poles.

I know you don't know. That is why I am informing you. Considering Russia and Poland's war ended in 1926 and Poland was the main base for the anti communist White-Russian insurgents ( as evidenced by Stalin executing the Polish officer class at Katyn who ran the insurgency) I don't think many Poles would emigrate into Russia. (The largest eastern pole exodus was to Finland, Russia's enemy). I am laughing at your "perhaps they decided not to be jews" as you obviously do not know how the "second mention" laws were applied in Poland. You do not get to "choose". May I also suggest you read up on the co-operation in post war displaced persons administration, between western allies and Russia, that accounts for people movement so as to allow prosecution of hiding nazis, the return of ethnic groups, the preparation for economic aid on anticipated returning populations to various countries for the Marshall plan etc.

I understood from Krege that there were no 'landscape changes' (soil disturbances). The Russian were approaching Treblinka because they were moving westwards over a broad front. No way of avoiding Treblinka. It's simple topology. I am not aware of any connection between Kathyn and Treblinka.

The collapse of Army group centre was not a "broad front". It was only the centre. This is why many divisions, like Grossdeutchland were stuck in east Prussia. However wide guage rail was important to the Russians due to extended logistic lines and Treblinka was a major rail transit link that would allow the Russians a direct line to Warsaw.

There are two stages at Treblinka that overlap. First there is the executions and the bodies were left partially buried. Then there is the international problem period when the Russians were lying and claiming the Germans executed the Polish officer class. The Germans were still hoping for a negotiated peace at this period and did not want the Russians to find 870,000dead poles. So they dug em up, put them on rails, used flamethrowers and petrol and burnt the evidence. They did the same thing to their own people's bodies after Dresden. Hitler burnt himself. It was the "german thing" However they were still executing jewish school girls at Treblinka during this second period.

Never heard of that. I was in Auschwitz and saw similar exhibitions of suit cases, shoes and glasses, that could easily be explained from a death toll of 50,000 people dead as revisionists maintain. Do you have a source to that document/report?

Add up the numbers of clothes in the report I have already posted. (Hint:There are 275,000 overcoats that could be reused from the victims and considering many victims came from the Warsaw ghetto uprising, their overcoats would have been a "bit ragged". Perhaps one in four people had a "almost new overcoat" ). The clothes you saw at Auschwitz were those limited number of clothes waiting to to be distributed not what had been distributed and documented on Todt Organisation Records.

So, what does the IHR and Codoh's research documents say about the missing 3,300,000 jews? Isn't that a rather fundamental question?