UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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Why do you think that the viewing conditions for seeing the lower fin are worse than for seeing the upper fin - which is not very far above the lower fin? They're both at the same distance from the observer. Do you think that the atmospheric and lighting conditions change that much over a distance from the upper to the lower half of the object, and if so, why? At what distance would the lower fin be invisible while the upper remains visible?

As a semi-professional illustrator and degreed artist, I've observed and painstakingly recorded light and light phenomena for many years, and I can confidently report that bright sunlight can "blow out" (render invisible) a distant, reflective object, while another object adjacent to the first will remain visible.

Material reflectivity, angle of view, position of the object viewed, and distance between viewer and object are all relative to each other and to the light source, and all affect visibility. Behind a sheen of brilliant, reflected sunlight, not much detail is going to be visible to the naked or even the binocular-assisted eye. But an object just outside that globe of light, might be visible.

In short, the unseen lower fin and gondola may have been composed of highly reflective material; they may have been positioned at an angle favorable to brilliant reflectivity;they may have been subsumed by the sphere of reflected light shimmering off the surface of the (proposed) blimp, while the sighted upper fin was none or not all of these.

The fallacy you're making here is argument from incredulity, as GeeMack has repeatedly noted and you have consistently ignored. You personally cannot imagine how obvious blimp features, such as the lower fin and gondola, could possibly be overlooked or misperceived by a competent viewer. The simple fact is that light, distance and atmospheric conditions affect and distort visual perception in unpredictable ways, as do the less tangible psychological phenomena of regional expectation, confirmation bias, wonder and awe, and emotional attachment to unsupportable premises.

BTW, you neglected to address my other points, namely the USNR and commercial blimp hangars in operation well within range of RR; that the round/circular shape of the UFO is wholly consistent with the head-on view of a blimp; that the cigar-shaped drawing made by one eye-witness, which you yourself have described as "precise", is further evidence that a blimp could have been involved.

Nor have you spoken to the possibility that the RR UFO, among other UFOs, could be explained as a covert experimental military aircraft designed and flown by the US Army or Navy, but kept under wraps as military secrets often are. This is a simpler, more rational, more plausible and more probable explanation than "alien aircraft from some world or experience beyond human knowledge or understanding".
 
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<snip>
So we have the splitting apart and “perfect” rejoining, or the “brilliance” of the object, or the rectangular “alternating blue, green, red and orange in color” – “so fast that all the colors could be seen at once”, or the “cylinder” shape, or that the landed part “cast a very bright light over an area of about 2-3 kilometres.” Then there is its nullifying affect on the jets weaponry and communication systems. Or that it “headed toward the F-4 at a great rate of speed”… and this is merely to mention the “mundane” aspects. We still have shapeshifting for example to account for… and much more besides.

So LOTS of evidence then… nothing much in reply… why is that do you think?

I've heard of no alien craft displaying these characteristics so I think it's an unlikely explanation.
 
Aww...I thought I'd have time to make a good, long post covering several thoughts and blah blah blah...but unfortunately I have only a few minutes. So I'll be brief.

Akhenaten, GeeMack, thank you for your responses. I now understand how I have mistakenly used the phrase 'making a good case'. Sorry for the confusion. There are some things I'd still like to ask you regarding your differing opinions on how Rramjet's making his case (to learn more on the intricacies of the English language), but they'll have to go for now...thanks again. Oh yeah, GeeMack, in the last few pages I have indeed noted what you have constantly pointed out regarding Rramjet's conduct.

RoboTimbo, looks like you're not on ignore :). I'd be glad to help, but really don't have that much 'net time on my hands these days. So I'll try to keep your request in mind when asking some questions at the end of this post (which is now).

Rramjet, some questions (I understand you're busy, but no hurry here):

1. Would you kindly show me the place in the original official reports of the Iran UFO case where they explain exactly the methodology of how they went through every single known mundane explanation (notice, I don't mean known to you, but known to even the most advanced engineers and scientists of then and now)

2. If you can not, would you be so kind as to explain the exact methodology of how you have been able to rule out every known mundane explanation in the case (notice, I don't mean known to you, but known to even the most advanced engineers and scientists of then and now)

3. Could you please do the same with the Hopkinsville and White Sands cases as well

4. Then, would you be so kind as to show us scientific, peer-reviewed publications where, based on the data acquired above in addition to appropriate study, it has been shown that, without reasonable doubt, the origin of the UFOs in these cases were 'alien' (as you mean by the word)

If you are able to perform all four tasks accordingly, I think it will help all of us to take a giant leap towards your position. Thank you in advance!
 
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I've been desultorily skimming this thread and there are a couple of points I'd like to raise. This post isn't really addressed to Rramjet, I don't consider him capable of accepting explanations other than those he's already decided on and have thus added him to my ignore list.

Firstly with regard to Rramjet's contention about an aerial vehicle splitting and rejoining in flight as made in these posts:

and

This is rubbish. There are three publicly known examples of such behavior, using only human technology, and prior to 1976.

<respectful snip>


Go you!

Hail and well met, catsmate1.
 
Some have contended that I have offered no evidence in the Iranian UFO case. To counter that unfounded assertion – for I have posted much evidence in the case I will clarify (again) the positions:

The evidence:


























<bits that weren't evidence snipped>


"Some have contended that I have offered no evidence in the Iranian UFO case. To counter that unfounded assertion – for I have posted much evidence in the case I will clarify (again) the positions: I have nothing."

What you ought to have posted.
 
Aww...I thought I'd have time to make a good, long post covering several thoughts and blah blah blah...but unfortunately I have only a few minutes. So I'll be brief.

Akhenaten, GeeMack, thank you for your responses. I now understand how I have mistakenly used the phrase 'making a good case'. Sorry for the confusion. There are some things I'd still like to ask you regarding your differing opinions on how Rramjet's making his case (to learn more on the intricacies of the English language), but they'll have to go for now...thanks again. Oh yeah, GeeMack, in the last few pages I have indeed noted what you have constantly pointed out regarding Rramjet's conduct.

<snippy>


No worries mate. This just isn't the best thread for you to learn with. There are simply too many fallacious arguments (all from a single source, I might add) for any of us to keep up properly.

Cruise around a few other threads and when I spot you asking questions I'll jump in and say hi.

On the other hand, GeeMack is better at this than I am, so make sure you give his responses a little more weight.

Also, GeeMack speaks English, whereas I speak Australian, and you wouldn't believe the trouble THAT will get you into.

Fair dinkum!


Cheers,

Dave
 
Why do you think that the viewing conditions for seeing the lower fin are worse than for seeing the upper fin - which is not very far above the lower fin? They're both at the same distance from the observer. Do you think that the atmospheric and lighting conditions change that much over a distance from the upper to the lower half of the object, and if so, why? At what distance would the lower fin be invisible while the upper remains visible?
This has already been addressed several times. And again more recently.
But I'll re-post the photo anyway because we haven't had a good Blimp photo on the thread for a while now:
Blimps.jpg


Blimp.jpg


Tell me Rramjet... in these photos, which fin is the most easy to see?
 
First: That the case is well documented and we have first hand eyewitness accounts.
How does being well documented make it alien?
Second: It has Iranian Airforce jets chasing a UFO and THEN being chased by the UFO!
How does chasing it make it alien?
Third: The object itself is ENTIRELY "unusual" (for example shape-shifting ability, ability to split apart and rejoin to name but two)
How does your argument from ignorance make it alien?
Fourth: There was radar confirmation of the object as well as the multiple witnesses, both civilian and military (not to mention the pilots)
How does radar confirmation make it alien?
Fifth: the UFO(s) was able to affect its' surroundings (ie; the instrumentation and functionality of the fighter jets)
How does affecting its surroundings make it alien?
Sixth: The UFO(s) seemed to exhibit intelligent control - (fleeing, affecting, and chasing)
How does intelligent control make it alien?
Seventh: I note also that the Iranian UFO exhibited many characteristics that preclude mundane explanations
How does your argument from incredulity make it alien?
 
What are the seeing conditions that would make a conventional craft take on this particular shape? How far away would a blimp have to be to give the witnesses with binoculars the impression that it was pancake shaped with a flat bottom, with a single fin on top (that starts at the centre of the object) and the impression that it could turn about a vertical axis through the centre of the blimp?

I gave you an excellent example long ago but you refused to acknowledge its existence. The Catalina Island film, it looked like a disk but was actually an airplane. Hundreds/thousands saw the film and agreed it looked like a disk. The witness, a professional photographer, thought it was a disk. Obviously, conditions can exist, which gives the impression an airplane can appear "disk-like".

As for the testimony being "sworn" - the fact that it was a deposition taken before a government agent provides it that level of commitment (in the absence of a "Do you swear..." preamble to the statements). For example, if you had to make such a deposition before an OSI special agent, especially at that time in history, would you not think that lying to that agent in such a deposition could have actionable repercussions?

This is garbage and just another attempt to present the evidence the way you want to see it. There are lots of people that filed false UFO reports during the time period and hoax UFO photographs. They had no fear of repercussions. In fact, when the USAF stated one case was a hoax, they got an earful from the persons congressman. As a result, the USAF stopped referring to such cases as hoaxes. Then we have all the contactees and their stories. Do you believe them as well? Do you really think these people took rides in alien spaceships to Venus, Jupiter, etc.? After all, they are witnesses and can be 100% accurate in your opinion. There should be no reason whatsoever to question their testimony.
 
So we must ask and answer the question: How fast and how far can the blimp go? From Goodyear themselves we have:

“The usual cruising speed is thirty-five miles per hour in a zero wind condition; all-out top speed is fifty-three miles per hour on the GZ20. As to cruising range: the ship can carry enough fuel to fly for twenty- four hours, although it rarely does so. When traveling cross-country the blimps fly wherever they go, and the crews try for an eight-hour day, or about 300 air miles.” (http://www.goodyearblimp.com/faqs/fa...ion.html#speed)

Thus it would seem to stretch credulity to its limits to suppose that a Goodyear blimp would even attempt the 190 mile journey from Salem to Rogue River. Even if conditions were absolutely perfect a one way journey would have taken upwards of 4 hours AND the whole journey would have required the blimp to travel at top speed, without a break for more than eight hours – an engineering and feat of stamina I suggest quite unlikely indeed.

Anything else?

Yet you think that alien engineers fly interstellar distances.
 
Okay. I can see that while it is quite clear that the historical records show that a blimp at Rogue River is implausible (unlikely, improbable, contrary to reason…)

Seriously, I'd like to know how YOU reach that conclusion when everybody else seems to think differently.

I'd also like to know how you can bear to read yourself say it over and over again. Perhaps you think it'll stick at some point.
 
Incredulity? Certainly.

But do you have any evidence that might support your claim that aliens exist, Rramjet? Yes or no?

I realize it presents kind of a catch 22 for you there, kid. If you answer, "Yes," you'll be asked to provide the evidence. And since you can't, you will have failed to support your claim. If you answer, "No," then you admit you've failed to support your claim.

Seems there's only a couple of strategies which don't immediately lead to your having to admit failure. One, which you seem to excel at, is to remain ignorant, simply pretend the question wasn't asked. And the other, an area in which you've also demonstrated much experience, is to lie.

So which will it be, Rramjet? I predict ignorance. :)

I do believe one of Ramjet's pet "tactics" is to make posts that are not replies to anyone, but simply re-state what he already said. This allows him to pretend that that post is the thread's new starting point, "where we're at", and that the stuff that came before is no longer relevant to the discussion.
 
So we must ask and answer the question: How fast and how far can the blimp go? From Goodyear themselves we have:

“The usual cruising speed is thirty-five miles per hour in a zero wind condition; all-out top speed is fifty-three miles per hour on the GZ20. <snip> misdirection and misattribution.
Anything else?
A reminder that we are not talking about Goodyear blimps, but post-war K Class military airships.
Specs from Wiki,


Performance
  • Maximum speed: 78 mph (125 km/h)
  • Cruise speed: 58 mph (93 km/h)
  • Range: 2,205 miles (3,537 km)
  • Endurance: 38 hours 12 min
 
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I gave you an excellent example long ago but you refused to acknowledge its existence. The Catalina Island film, it looked like a disk but was actually an airplane. Hundreds/thousands saw the film and agreed it looked like a disk. The witness, a professional photographer, thought it was a disk. Obviously, conditions can exist, which gives the impression an airplane can appear "disk-like".

And Rramjet will now demand evidence that these specific conditions were present at the Rouge river case.
 
[*spamming snipped*]
So LOTS of evidence then... nothing much in reply... why is that do you think?


Here's a reply. These links you spam and comments you repeatedly quote do not constitute objective evidence to support your claim that aliens exist. It only provides evidence that you can't believe it could be anything but aliens. That's your argument from incredulity again.

Yes or no, do you have any actual objective, tangible evidence to support your claim that aliens exist? Anything besides your ignorance, incredulity, and lies of course? Oh, and if you do, is there any particular reason you've made hundreds of postings in this thread of over 2000 postings without bringing in a single piece of that evidence yet?
 
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