Lisbon Treaty ratified

[Undesired Walrus]

Most of the British electorate voted for parties that pledged a referendum on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty

No, it was a pledge on the EU Constitution. When it failed in Middle Europe there was no point of putting it to a vote here.

 

[geni]

Most of the British electorate voted for parties that pledged a referendum on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty. Funny how that didn't happen.

Now, a stronger, more efficient EU may be a good thing, but I wouldn't mind if it was something we democratically wanted. Actually having a referendum at some point on the EU would be a good thing. I never had a vote on one, I wasn't even alive when the referendum for joining the economic bloc was held.

Referenda are unbritish. New labour may be something of a fan of them but that doesn't change the fact that historicaly they are more something people in other countries do.

 

[Thunder]

The EU is an undemocratic, unrepresentative, overly bureaucratic institution, and should not be supported in it's present state.

so, its sorta like when Chancellor Palpatine decided to unilaterally reorganize the Galactic Republic into an Empire?

 

[Giz]

No, it was a pledge on the EU Constitution. When it failed in Middle Europe there was no point of putting it to a vote here.

The Lisbon Treaty and the Constitution are so similar in content and effect that denying a referendum was a clear breach of the spirit of the manifesto promise. Semantic weasling by Labour.

 

[Uzzy]

No, it was a pledge on the EU Constitution. When it failed in Middle Europe there was no point of putting it to a vote here.

So instead we get a Lisbon Treaty, which contains much of the text of the Constitution, so much so that Valéry Giscard d'Estaing freely admits it's the Constitution rewritten in a form that gets past the need for referendum. Regardless of that, a referendum was promised, and quibbling your way out of it doesn't exactly help in a) Making the EU seem more democratic or b) Making the EU more popular.

 

[geni]

a) Making the EU seem more democratic or b) Making the EU more popular.

Considering what comes out of the council of ministers (you know the bit with all the domestic politicians) what makes you think either of those are an objective?

 

[Giz]

Way back in 1975, yes. At which point (and this corrects my earlier statement), we were already a member of the European Economic Community, essentially a free trade area. The referendum was on whether or not we should stay in that group.

We never had a referendum when the EU was created. We were promised, but not granted, a referendum over this latest treaty. This has led to quite an undemocratic situation, especially when polls suggest a majority of people in the UK would like to leave the EU.

Yeah, the original referendum was also sold to the British people on the basis of it being an economic union - not something that would be political.

The EU is an undemocratic, unrepresentative, overly bureaucratic institution, and should not be supported in it's present state.

Undemocratic is bad enough but we're being forced into a Union which is so corrupt that it's been unable to get it's accounts signed off by the auditors since 1994... !

 

[Uzzy]

Considering what comes out of the council of ministers (you know the bit with all the domestic politicians) what makes you think either of those are an objective?

I don't, and that rather worries me. If we are going to give them more and more power, knowing that they feel democracy and accountability is important might be a little reassuring.

 

[geni]

I don't, and that rather worries me. If we are going to give them more and more power, knowing that they feel democracy and accountability is important might be a little reassuring.

Democracy is going up (more stuff ending up in the hands of the parliment rather than the buracracts). Accountability? Depends how you vote in the EU elections

 

[Undesired Walrus]

I wonder how many people who oppose the Lisbon Treaty have any idea what the hell it does, besides their idea that it creates some all-powerful President Blair.

 

[Darat]

Way back in 1975, yes. At which point (and this corrects my earlier statement), we were already a member of the European Economic Community, essentially a free trade area. The referendum was on whether or not we should stay in that group.

We never had a referendum when the EU was created. We were promised, but not granted, a referendum over this latest treaty.
...snip...

Sorry but that isn't true - The Labour party promised a referendum on the "Constitutional Treaty" not the "Lisbon Treaty" - the "Constitutional Treaty" was killed by "No" votes in several EU countries.

 

[Darat]

I wonder how many people who oppose the Lisbon Treaty have any idea what the hell it does, besides their idea that it creates some all-powerful President Blair.

Very few people will have read it - in that way it is like the Constitutional Treaty! Which was a very badly named treaty being nothing like a constitution.

 

[Giz]

Sorry but that isn't true - The Labour party promised a referendum on the "Constitutional Treaty" not the "Lisbon Treaty" - the "Constitutional Treaty" was killed by "No" votes in several EU countries.

That's semantics

 

[Darat]

That's semantics

I disagree - I read both and they are certainly not the same treaty, yes they have lots in common but any treaty that was trying to make the EU more democratic would share that level of commonality.

ETA: And this by the way is not just my opinion, the High Court also concluded that the treaties were not the same.

 

[geni]

Very few people will have read it - in that way it is like the Constitutional Treaty! Which was a very badly named treaty being nothing like a constitution.

The treaty is practicly unreadable so objecting to people not reading it is somewhat unreasonable.

 

[Darat]

It's certainly not an easy read and you can download it along with the various treaties that it amends.

 

[Uzzy]

I disagree - I read both and they are certainly not the same treaty, yes they have lots in common but any treaty that was trying to make the EU more democratic would share that level of commonality.

ETA: And this by the way is not just my opinion, the High Court also concluded that the treaties were not the same.

And yet the man who designed the Constitution said the Lisbon Treaty was simply a repackaged version of the EU Constitution, in order to get around various countries need to hold a referendum on the issue. Funny how that's exactly what happened here with Labour. They promised a referendum, then wimped out of it. No courage of their convictions.

It'd be nice if we got a referendum on these transfer of powers to the EU, so that we can have a proper, informed debate on all the issues.

 

[INRM]

Icerat,

No, the fact that when they voted no, they kept holding referendum after referendum, until they said yes, and the fact that they put a lot of pressure on them to say yes, telling them that it wouldn't be good for them if they said no.

When people vote NO, it means NO. Not 'maybe we should hold referendum after referendum until they say YES".


INRM

 

[Darat]

And yet the man who designed the Constitution said the Lisbon Treaty was simply a repackaged version of the EU Constitution, in order to get around various countries need to hold a referendum on the issue

...snip...

So it wasn't the same treaty....

 

[Giz]

So it wasn't the same treaty....

"simply a repackaged version" = "same"

(Unless we are into semantics...)