9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Thunder]

What's the difference again between Goyim and Untermensch?

we don't seen the annihilation of all Goyim on the face of the Earth.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I don't ignore them but they are not to the point. There were endless atrocities, but we are discussing here the (non)existence of an industrial extermination program in the 6 so-called death camps. Gaschambers.

Hi I'm Matthew and I normally post on the Skeptic Society's anti holocaust deniers webforum.

You said that you do not doubt Reichbahn transport records. Neither do I. Can you explain if 870,000 people go off the train at the Treblina transit station what train they go onto? Neither Cohoh or IHR have been able to answer this.

I also ask what happened to the 3,300,000 jews living in Poland in the pre war census that werre not there after 1945? You cannot claim they emigrated before the war if you also believe in the Reichsbahn transport records. The IHR and Codoh are unable to answer this question.

Can you explain why the landscape changes at Treblinka concerning the cremation of "dead body" evidence as the Russians aproached. Are you are aware why the Russian were approaching Treblinka? ( Please read about Katyn and how the Russians wanted the evidence from Treblinka to soften the hard evidence that they executed the Polish officer class)

Finally I would like you to explain Nuremberg Document NO-1257
Where do you think the clothes from Treblinka came from? Local donations from the Polish town?

Particularly illuminating is a report Pohl made to Himmler on 6 February 1943 containing a detailed list of items seized ( Treblinka). Among them were 221 train cars' worth of appropriated clothing sent to the Office for Germanisation, useless to the dead but otherwise essential to any who would have actually been transported to the east, i.e. none.

[...]2. Office for Germanization [VoMi]
Men's clothing:
overcoats - 99,000
jackets - 57,000
vests - 27,000
pants - 62,000
drawers - 38,000
shirts - 132,000
pullovers - 9,000
scarves - 2,000
pajamas - 6,000
collars - 10,000
gloves - 2,000 pairs
socks - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 31,000 pairs

Women's clothing:
coats - 155,000 pieces
dresses - 119,000 pieces
blouses - 30,000 pieces
pullovers - 60,000 pieces
drawers - 49,000 pieces
panties - 60,000 pieces
jackets - 26,000 pieces
shirts - 30,000 pieces
chemises - 125,000 pieces
pajamas - 27,000 pieces
aprons - 36,000 pieces
brassieres - 25,000 pieces
underwear - 22,000 pieces
kerchiefs - 85,000 pieces
shoes - 111,000 pieces

Children's clothing:
overcoats - 15,000
boys' jackets - 11,000
boys' pants - 3,000
shirts - 3,000
scarves - 4,000
pullovers - 1,000
drawers - 1,000
girls' dresses - 9,000
girls' chemises - 5,000
aprons - 2,000
drawers - 5,000
stockings - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 22,000 pairs

 

[Matthew Ellard]

The burden of proof is on you, not me.

No not really. There has already been a trial and the evidence presented and convictions made. The holocaust deniers can apply to the court for an appeal but they never do. This has got to do with "expert evidence". In UK, US and Commonwealth courts an "expert witness" must have qualifications. Because "Holocaust denial" avoids any university peer review process it cannot supply any "professional evidence". If you review Codoh or the IHR websites you realise they have no intention of ever doing this. Their websites are intended to sell books for profit and not to improve their academic standing. This is why these websites are like the "Answers in Genesis" websites.

 

[Arkyrion]

You cannot 'show me speeches' from Hitler where he ordered house-to-house fighting in Dresden. I challenge you. There never was a battle for Dresden. Who wants to defend/attack a pile of rubble?

It was never implied that Hitler ordered house-to-house fighting in Dresden. It was said the he ordered that his troops "fight to the last round." Please try to read through the posts thoroughly before responding.

God are you playing in my hand. In the video Americans themselves brag about their destruction of Dresden. I can prove in 3 minutes what happened and you with the combined 'strength' of 10-20 people are completely unable to come up with anything in almost 60 pages.

Never have we denied that the American military bombed Dresden. It was a mistake that I regret, and I would like to prevent its recurrence.

Skeptic thinks he can reverse roles and by what he sees as copying my tactic that he can prove that Dresden did not happen. I can make a fool of him in 3 minutes. And you cannot do the same to me.

We can, actually. We've been doing it for the past 60 pages. The fact that arguing with you is like hitting a brick wall with a wrecking ball that the wall refuses to recognize as real does not change this. You may continue to think that you stand strong all you like, you remain a sorry pile of rubble regardless.

 

[Amazer]

I don't ignore them but they are not to the point. There were endless atrocities, but we are discussing here the (non)existence of an industrial extermination program in the 6 so-called death camps. Gaschambers.

Uhm... Wrong. We're discussing the Holocaust. And that involves a little more than just gas chambers and death camps.

Now that we have that cleared up... How about some evidence to back up your assertions?

 

[lionking]

No not really. There has already been a trial and the evidence presented and convictions made. The holocaust deniers can apply to the court for an appeal but they never do. This has got to do with "expert evidence". In UK, US and Commonwealth courts an "expert witness" must have qualifications. Because "Holocaust denial" avoids any university peer review process it cannot supply any "professional evidence". If you review Codoh or the IHR websites you realise they have no intention of ever doing this. Their websites are intended to sell books for profit and not to improve their academic standing. This is why these websites are like the "Answers in Genesis" websites.

Welcome Matthew, but facts are really wasted on 9/11 Investigator.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Welcome Matthew, but facts are really wasted on 9/11 Investigator.

That's alright. I'm very used to arguing with holocaust deniers. If anything I use these forums to improve my own knowledge by researching "counter denial" evidence.

 

[Skeptic]

9/11 investigator keeps complaining the Jews think non-Jews are inferior.

Well, why shouldn't they? The Jews control the world, the banks, the media, history, and everything!

If a group that is 0.2% or so of the world's population can manage, so easily, to keep the other 99.8% under its boot for hundreds of years -- while the Aryan "supermen" only managed 12 years of ruling over inferiors, and destroying their own country in the process -- OF COURSE these Jews are going to think the other 99.8% are inferior.

I mean, what did you expect?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I think that most of the smarties here will probably agree with me that there is not a shred of evidence that the Nazi-regime had a homicidal policy towards the Jews from the start in the 1920's.

The nazi regime wasn't in power in 1920. Us "smarties" already know that. Why don't you try a speech which Streicher made in 1922 in Nurnberg, after abusing the Jews in the first paragraph, he went on to say: "We know that Germany will be free when the Jew has been excluded from the life of the German people." So you are correct the NSDAP just wanted to get rid of them.

Then he mentions Stalingrad. The Germans lost the battle for Stalingrad, feb 1943. With hindsight many see that as the turning point of the war, although Stalingrad is situated at the Wolga, way beyond the Ukraine, as far eastern as Tiblisi, Georgia. So a German loss was not even certain at that time and hence no incentive for changing German policy (expulsion) was present.

The Germans lost the war after "week 12" of Barbarossa as they were not on a war economy.
Polish camapign 4 weeks ( return for refit)
French campaign 6 weeks ( return for refit)
Greek/Balkans campaign 8 weeks ( return for refit)
Russian campaign ( Germans freezing to death in summer uniforms and Zhukov's Siberian divisions return from the "japanese" stand off)

Stalingrad is where "the little Austrian corporal" ignored OKH's mobile warfare victories and says "stand and fight" which they did and died on mass. Kursk is the battle that ended German armour in mobile warfare and allowed for the collapse of army group centre ( as they had almost no armour left )

And it is up to you to prove that these exterminations happened, if you think they did happen. But I am rather certain that nothing of the sort happened until at least the first months of 1943, as long as the Germans were in the 'winning mood'.

I agree. They had a political policy of only executing communists before 1943. But they certainly "went for it" after 1943. The specific executions are defined in the Nurenberg transcripts.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Well, why shouldn't they? The Jews control the world, the banks, the media, history, and everything!

That's good news as I'm Australian and I am frightened that you will work out that Murdoch, who owns FOX, The Times (UK), Hughes electronics, 20th Century Fox, The New York Post etc, and he is Australian with no religious background at all! It must be a Jewish/Australian conspiracy?

If a group that is 0.2% or so of the world's population can manage, so easily, to keep the other 99.8% under its boot for hundreds of years --

Was that when the Babylonians threw them out of Judea?
Was that when the Egyptians threw then out of Judea?
Was that when the Ottomans threw them out of Judea?
Was that when the British threw them out of Judea?

You seem very frightened of a group of people that hasn't been able to hang on to their own homeland. Perhaps you are wrong?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

A little bit of searching leads the to consistent mentioning of 35,000 identified victims of the Dresden attack and 50,000 unidentified victims.

The problem in numbers was a particular idiot called "David Irving" who based on the same documents made these hilarious claims over time.

In Irving's 1966 edition of The Destruction of Dresden the triple blow was ‘estimated authoritatively to have killed more than 135,000 of the population...’, but the ‘documentation suggests very strongly that the figure was certainly between a minimum of 100,000 and a maximum of 250,000.’

In Irving's 1971 edition the triple blow was ‘estimated authoritatively to have killed more than 100,000 of the population...’

In 1989 Irving told journalists whilst launching the ‘Leuchter Report’ in Britain that: ‘There were one million refugees in the streets of Dresden at the time that we burned Dresden to the ground, killing anything between 100,000 and 250,000 of them.’

In 1992 Irving told the Institute of Historical Review that ‘a hundred thousand people were killed [in Dresden] in a period of twelve hours by the British and Americans.’

In 1993, in a publicity video made for the Australian public, Irving stated that ‘over 130,000 people died in that particular air raid.’

In the 1995 edition of The Destruction of Dresden the figure was no longer authoritative and the attack had ‘cost the lives of between fifty and one hundred thousand inhabitants....’

In 1996 Irving had changed this figure yet again in his Goebbels: The Mastermind of the ‘Third Reich’, where he notes of the Dresden raids that ‘Between sixty and one hundred thousand people were choked to death or burned alive...’

You must be proud that David Irving is "head" holocaust denier and has been proven a liar in court.

Dresden was bombed to stop 4 divisions of Army group south getting up to stop the Red Army entering Saxony, using the rail link. I think the Red Army would consider this a military activity.

 

[Simon39759]

That's good news as I'm Australian and I am frightened that you will work out that Murdoch, who owns FOX, The Times (UK), Hughes electronics, 20th Century Fox, The New York Post etc, and he is Australian with no religious background at all! It must be a Jewish/Australian conspiracy?



Was that when the Babylonians threw them out of Judea?
Was that when the Egyptians threw then out of Judea?
Was that when the Ottomans threw them out of Judea?
Was that when the British threw them out of Judea?

You seem very frightened of a group of people that hasn't been able to hang on to their own homeland. Perhaps you are wrong?

For clarification purposes... Skeptic's post was dipped deep into irony. I even seem to recall Skeptic himself being Israeli.

The point that Nazi tend to qualify the Jews as 'untermensch' while, at the same time, attributing them with near god-like ability for conspiracy and control.
9/11 here is certainly is a fine example that believe that the whole Holocaust was but a game of mirror by the Jews to get the poor Nazi in trouble and ride a vague of sympathy all the way to the independence of Israel.
Also, they were Turks too and were responsible for the Armenian genocide back in the day.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

For clarification purposes... Skeptic's post was dipped deep into irony. I even seem to recall Skeptic himself being Israeli.

If that is true and Skeptic's post was sarcastic then may I offer you and Skeptic my apologies for not picking up on this.

The point that Nazi tend to qualify the Jews as 'untermensch' while, at the same time, attributing them with near god-like ability for conspiracy and control.

I agree. It makes no sense at all.

(Again, I apologise to "Skeptic".)

 

[Simon39759]

If that is true and Skeptic's post was sarcastic then may I offer you and Skeptic my apologies for not picking up on this.

I agree. It makes no sense at all.

(Again, I apologise to "Skeptic".)

No problem from me and I don't think Skeptic was offended either, I just wanted to clarify.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

No problem from me and I don't think Skeptic was offended either, I just wanted to clarify.

That's cool and much appreciated. If I make a error and you let me know, I won't make the same error again!

 

[Humanzee]

Thank you for your posts Matthew

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

No you have not. In what post# did you do that?



You don't have to explain that. But the story (lie rather) is that by far the most of them (4 million I believe) were gassed in 6 death-camps. That's what we are discussing here. The holocaust as an intentional large scale extermination program.

The alternative position here defended by revisionists is that 0 people were gassed but that about 250,000 people died in the camps, from sickness, malnourishment and above all typhus, as expressed by this gentleman:

--Williamson link removed from original comment--

Great guy.

I suggest -and I'm by no means the first- that Bishop Williamson starts his search for victims of nazi gassing with the name Menachem Taffel and the number 107969.

Within minutes Bishop Williamson will have found not just one man who was gassed but he will also have discovered that the rest of Menachem Taffel's family was murdered.
His wife Klara and his daughter Ester. If you deny that, tell me where they are now? Where did they go from the Auschwitz-Birkenau ramp, if not to the gas chamber on March 12, 1943?

Within minutes "Die Namen der Nummern" will have revealed dozens of names and connections to thousands of other gassed people. Hans-Joachim Lang's work isn't finished but he did publish how he connected the dots left in the original records and writings by previous researchers. His book and website are easy to find for anyone still struggling with the not-one-gassing victim threshold. So the goal posts move. Now every death must be recorded with such detail, according to deniers.

Millions of victims remain anonymous and their individual deaths are perhaps not recorded with the same documentary detail that Pressac and Lang o.a. managed to uncover for Menachem Taffel's gassing at Natzweiler-Struthof by Josef Kramer but does that mean the other victims don't count in the Bishop's straw man of 6 million gassed victims? Do you really need the exact path taken by each individual if that path is known for thousands of almost identical but unrecognized arrivals at Auschwitz? Does the nazi ploy to rob these people of their identity absolve them from criminal responsibility in their death. The logical opposite really is for you to describe in as much detail as exists for arrivals what the Auschwitz departures were like for the people currently listed as dead.

If the nazis really were trying to limit death from disease then why did the trains keep going to Auschwitz for years? Why not seal and quarantine the entire compound and keep people away from it? 68 trains from Westerbork to Auschwitz until September 3, 1944. There was no typhus in the Netherlands when they left. Why send those Dutch (primarily) Jews from Westerbork there of all places if resettlement was truly the goal and typhus really was as rampant at Auschwitz as deniers want to claim it was?

How many of the dead at Dresden are known by name? Has Richard Krege gone to the Heidefriedhof to determine if their mass grave really contains remains of open air cremations? If not what is he waiting for. Afraid the grave may be empty? Dresden just a Hoax?

Have deniers gone to take samples of the ashes in Dresden? That way they could nitpick some more and resort to statements that "the remains at Belzec are too coarse and could not possibly have resulted from the same method of body disposal" as the burning on the Dresdner Altmarkt. That -with only slight exaggeration- is the level where Holocaust denial stands at this point. Nitpicking irrelevancies. Offering alternatives that aren't.

I also suggest that Bishop Williamson reads "A Study of the Cyanide Compounds Content in the walls of the Gas Chambers in the Former Auschwitz and Birkenau Concentration Camps. by Markiewicz, Gubala, Labetz - Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow 1994", and the many excellent reports written by people such as Richard J. Green.

Explaining not just that residue of poison gas was still present in the ruins of these gas chambers but that there are no physical obstructions to the operation of these facilities for homicidal gassing. Leuchter even "forgot" what Rudolf tries to trivialize. The collection of cyanide residue from the ventilation system of Brikenau Krema in 1945. Why still cite Leuchter 2 decades after better reports were published? Ignorance from poor researching skills or politically motivated willful ignorance appear to me the only two options in this Leuchter situation.

No reason to deny. Not even by the irrational standards Holocaust deniers try to force on their opponents.

That is only a sample of the part of the evidence that demonstrates gassing while the number of total nazi victims mentioned by Bishop Williamson is already surpassed by the number of dead resulting from shooting Aktions by Einsatzgruppen etc

As demonstrated by the many expert reports prepared by accredited scholars for HDOT that you routinely misrepresent. Deliberately.

No reason to deny. As has been pointed out to you several times, it is unreasonable to expect people to transcribe 65 years of records for your benefit in a forum thread. The Holocaust is a fact. That record exists. You're job is to refute the evidence. You don't. You're stuck in the Denier ****** Bingo repertoire.

If you're still denying at this point you're looking for excuses to defy reality. Well beyond reasonable skepticism and with appealing to Williamson's "authority" you have now well and truly wandered off the premises.

 

[Belz...]

Wishing and doing are 2 different things.

So basically all the pictures are fake, the documents show nothing, motive is irrelevant, and statistics don't show what we think they show.

It's amazing how that overwhelming amount of evidence can lie. But I suppose that's true of any conspiracy theory. There is no amount of evidence that could convince its proponents, because evidence isn't what brought you to that belief in the first place.

 

[Belz...]

I don't ignore them but they are not to the point. There were endless atrocities, but we are discussing here the (non)existence of an industrial extermination program in the 6 so-called death camps. Gaschambers.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You're ignoring the pictures, documents, testimonies and admissions. What MORE do you want ?

 

[Think_Tank]

Damn. I wish my first few posts contained as much unmitigated win as those of Matthew and Bluespace...

Welcome to both of you!