How do you guys explain really bizarre cases of synchronicity?

Enjoy your magical thinking!

heh. I do love how ya'll assume that any departure from fundamentalist reductionist materialism must be "magical thinking." Oye vey!

One question: since you're fine with coming to conclusions regardless of (or even in spite of) evidence, where do you draw the line?

Wow, talk about coincidences - a great question, one that I have wanted to ask in the other direction repeatedly in this thread, having even quoted the Dead Kennedys and then deleting it, with

"where do you draw the line / I'm not telling you, I'm asking you" ... heh.

Anyway - maybe you should point out precisely what conclusions I have come to?

Because it seems to me that YOU are the one with a faith-based belief -

- namely, that any apparent patterns that do not fit neatly into your narrow paradigm are automatically "explained" away as "random" - and anyone who is open to such events being anything other than random is "irrational."

Hmm, something smells like dogma in here ...

:cool:
 
heh. I do love how ya'll assume that any departure from fundamentalist reductionist materialism must be "magical thinking." Oye vey!



Wow, talk about coincidences - a great question, one that I have wanted to ask in the other direction repeatedly in this thread, having even quoted the Dead Kennedys and then deleting it, with

"where do you draw the line / I'm not telling you, I'm asking you" ... heh.

Anyway - maybe you should point out precisely what conclusions I have come to?

Because it seems to me that YOU are the one with a faith-based belief -

- namely, that any apparent patterns that do not fit neatly into your narrow paradigm are automatically "explained" away as "random" - and anyone who is open to such events being anything other than random is "irrational."

Hmm, something smells like dogma in here ...

:cool:

Did you deliberately paraphrase one of the creationists' favorite arguments just to get a rise out of us? ;)
 
heh. I do love how ya'll assume that any departure from fundamentalist reductionist materialism must be "magical thinking." Oye vey!
We can read what you've written --- no assumption seems necessary.

Anyway - maybe you should point out precisely what conclusions I have come to?
Wouldn't that be your job?

Because it seems to me that YOU are the one with a faith-based belief -
Yes, of course. You, stop me if I'm wrong, apparently think the universe is communicating with you in the form of consecutive teapots. Joe isn't so sure. Clearly HE is the one with the faith-based belief.
 
To my knowledge, no study has been conducted regarding this issue.


Without a study, you're just assuming that is the case.
You're wrong. Housefly neuroanatomy has been pretty well-studied. Flies do not have the ability to make a theory of the mind (which would be necessary for a fly to understand a human's considering a decision).

For the second time, do you believe the fly was intentionally sent to tell him to cut the grass? Or are you just playing a silly rhetorical game of "convince me that it's not so"?


I have the same amount of evidence that you do. Which is not to say that you should believe that the fly was sent with the intention of motivating the guy to cut the grass, only that you shouldn't come to a conclusion with no evidence.
Again, you're wrong. We understand what it would take for the fly to be sent, and that it's not possible. You have no evidence to believe that the fly was sent for this purpose.
 
heh. I do love how ya'll assume that any departure from fundamentalist reductionist materialism must be "magical thinking." Oye vey!



Wow, talk about coincidences - a great question, one that I have wanted to ask in the other direction repeatedly in this thread, having even quoted the Dead Kennedys and then deleting it, with

"where do you draw the line / I'm not telling you, I'm asking you" ... heh.

Anyway - maybe you should point out precisely what conclusions I have come to?
I purposely listed beliefs that are not based on (or even contrary to) evidence that are mutually exclusive. So of the beliefs I listed, you can't possible have them all.


Because it seems to me that YOU are the one with a faith-based belief -
And you're wrong. I'm arguing in favor of the skeptical model--I follow the evidence and provisionally accept the explanation that the current evidence supports. (If none, I hold the position, "I don't know." If the balance of the evidence changes (that is, new evidence comes to light), I'm prepared to modify or scrap previously provisionally accepted explanations.

- namely, that any apparent patterns that do not fit neatly into your narrow paradigm are automatically "explained" away as "random" - and anyone who is open to such events being anything other than random is "irrational."
Nope. That's not even remotely what I've been arguing as an explanation of so-called "synchronicity". I've shown that they are explicable (through ordinary causality and the laws of probability), as is the human tendency to make Type I errors like this (and supported my explanation with multiple lines of evidence from several disciplines).
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
The two you've offered so far, that deluded people are seeing reality in a way that the rest of us don't, and that synchronicity is a "mystical experience" don't work very well.

I haven't made either argument at all.)

You didn't say this?
I've worked with people who have severe and persistent mental illnesses, and actually, I do think they perceive a reality that others generally do not-- but it's the reality perceived by those who have to live with lifelong illnesses which are horribly stigmatized by our society.

And you didn't say this?
I was the last person to touch Mac, who passed away, and I realized that when I get back to the hospital, I may find out that I was the last person to touch Miss Kitten (that's what we all called her on the hall.) I knew this by the time I was with MK because Mac had already died. I put my hand on her forehead and such a mixture of feelings went through me as I knew that she was dying. To be alone with the sick and the dying as they let go of life is a mystical experience.
 
You're wrong. Housefly neuroanatomy has been pretty well-studied. Flies do not have the ability to make a theory of the mind (which would be necessary for a fly to understand a human's considering a decision).

For the second time, do you believe the fly was intentionally sent to tell him to cut the grass? Or are you just playing a silly rhetorical game of "convince me that it's not so"?



Again, you're wrong. We understand what it would take for the fly to be sent, and that it's not possible. You have no evidence to believe that the fly was sent for this purpose.

You're getting this fly thing all wrong. Getting a sign of this sort has nothing to do with the universe tailoring a fly for one's special, magical needs. Its merely 2 events coinciding in a way that makes a decision easier.

If the guy watching TV, considering mowing the lawn, suddenly hears rain drops, he might think to himself not to mow, and to lay about longer.
I see no reason for a co-commitment of thinking that the rain starting was created just for that person, as a sign from god.

Here's another example: Two people are pulling out of a parking lot, about to come to a main road. They are considering going to one of 2 restaurants, and can't decide which one. One is a left turn; the other is right.
They decide to let an arbitrary sign decide for them. They agree to watch 10 cars go by. If the 10th is driven by a woman, they turn right.

Such harmless silly fun doesn't require magical thinking. We can choose to give an event significance to tip the scales in a decision. We can flip a coin without worshiping the coin. We can resolve a conflict that way without believing we have any power over the toss, or that god answers our prayers.
 
You're getting this fly thing all wrong. Getting a sign of this sort has nothing to do with the universe tailoring a fly for one's special, magical needs. Its merely 2 events coinciding in a way that makes a decision easier.

If the guy watching TV, considering mowing the lawn, suddenly hears rain drops, he might think to himself not to mow, and to lay about longer.
I see no reason for a co-commitment of thinking that the rain starting was created just for that person, as a sign from god.

Here's another example: Two people are pulling out of a parking lot, about to come to a main road. They are considering going to one of 2 restaurants, and can't decide which one. One is a left turn; the other is right.
They decide to let an arbitrary sign decide for them. They agree to watch 10 cars go by. If the 10th is driven by a woman, they turn right.

Such harmless silly fun doesn't require magical thinking. We can choose to give an event significance to tip the scales in a decision. We can flip a coin without worshiping the coin. We can resolve a conflict that way without believing we have any power over the toss, or that god answers our prayers.
I understand that such things might be said as harmless silly fun, but that's not really what this thread is about, is it?

(I mean, someone can "knock wood" when they talk about having avoided getting the flu so far this season, but that's not the same as someone denying the germ theory of disease or some such.)

I think this thread is about people who do believe that synchronicity is some alternative to mere coincidence--that the universe or karma or something really is trying to send a sign.

Or at least it's a challenge for those of us who don't believe that to explain supposed instances of synchronicity.
 
heh. I do love how ya'll assume that any departure from fundamentalist reductionist materialism must be "magical thinking." Oye vey!

And I love how woo-woos are so unable to question their own interpretation that everything else must be "dogmatic", because they are themselves incompatible with critical thinking.

It IS magical thinking, on your part. You are assigning meaning to something that doesn't have any. That's the whole point of magical thinking.

"Oh, the mountain is angry" is not scientific. It's just a volcano.
 
heh. I do love how ya'll assume that any departure from fundamentalist reductionist materialism must be "magical thinking." Oye vey!

I'm sorry: finding teapots does not rise to the level of phenomena required to seriously question whether the observed physical laws of the universe are basically complete nonsense.

It just doesn't.
 
I have an equally weird story myself. Doesn't everyone? What makes Teapots Happen different is not that his coincidence is particularly remarkable: it is not more remarkable than the coincidences that happen to other people.
I don't think he would disagree with that and I certainly would not. So, given the fact that "equally weird" things seem to happen to just about everyone, why not investigate this phenomenon, as opposed to assuming that all of these weird things are garden variety coincidences?
 
I'm sorry: finding teapots does not rise to the level of phenomena required to seriously question whether the observed physical laws of the universe are basically complete nonsense.
Why would establishing that synchronicity exists mean that "the observed physical laws of the universe are basically complete nonsense"? Did Einstein's findings about relativity mean that Newton's Laws are complete nonsense?
 
I don't think he would disagree with that and I certainly would not. So, given the fact that "equally weird" things seem to happen to just about everyone, why not investigate this phenomenon, as opposed to assuming that all of these weird things are garden variety coincidences?
Has anything risen to the level of a "phenomena" at all that even deserves investigation? Show there is something to even investigate first.
 
Hey now, no one is saying the laws of physics are nonsense. But perhaps the "observed laws" aren't the full story? I really don't see why this is so hard for you to accept as a possibility ... do you really think we know it all? Or we almost do?

I lol at the thought.

I think that consciousness probably interacts with the 'external world' in ways that current basic physics cannot account for, sure. I don't rule out future science figuring things out that would absolutely blow the doors off the billiard-ball materialism that fearful reductionists cling to.

I do not claim anything "supernatural" - merely "unknown" and/or mysterious.

Some of you seem deeply, deeply uncomfortable with the unknown and mysterious, have you noticed that? Don't feel OK until it's been bagged, tagged, and buried inthe "random meaningless abberant data, nothing to see here" pile ...

I'm amused by the multiple screennames on here who dismiss the coincidence of the teapots by stripping away the context entirely - thus reducing the story to the bare-bones level you can find comfort in - "wow, you bought a teapot and then you found one that was the same, big whoop" ... ignoring what I was thinking and feeling, the mystical experience and intuition-following lead-up, the fact that an insanely active 'urban explorer' had never been into his own crawlspace before, that I never bought teapots and only bought the one I did because I had a totally inexplicable intuitive desire to buy it, etc etc etc ...

Many of you have simply dropped that stuff out of the equation entirely, while others seek to dismiss it by pretending that they have rational grounds to do so - that it is "more probable" that some kind of misfiring psychology has made me misremember what I was thinking and feeling (you know, in order to support this incredibly powerful woo-drive I have to believe in something super comforting like "I really don't understand the universe.') The latter approach might be more sophisticated than the former, but it's just that same reductionist-excuse-for-reasoning in action.

If you want to see "magical thinking," just read your own posts, fellows - what you're doing here is not reasoning, and it is not skepticism. You're True Believers in an utterly explicable world, willing to instantly dismiss anything that seems to challenge the ridiculously simplistic model you have of reality.

"Assigning meaning" is not a belief, so please try again - what conclusions have I come to?

Perhaps that reality is more complex than our understanding of it is? That I don't have all the answers? That we can't tell the difference - even in theory - between a random pattern and a pattern with an unknown or even unknowable cause? That unknown or unknowable causes exist? That it is possible and even quite likely that there is a lot more going on than we know about - and given this, it's quite reasonable to abstain from leaping to firm conclusions about seemingly-aberrant data? Conclusions like "all strange coincidences and patterns are random"?

Or wait - those just negations of faith-based conclusions that you guys hold, aren't they?

Reductionist rationalism is, indeed, a very powerful and useful tool. But it is not the only tool in the box. And the simplistic, useful models it employs are not to be mistaken for the reality, itself. It is merely one finger pointing in the direction of truth ... but rather than following where that finger points toward, some seem to prefer to suck on it for comfort.

I find your lack of lack of faith disturbing.

:)


“Now, my own suspicion is that the universe is not only stranger than we suppose, but stranger than we can suppose.

I have read and heard many attempts at a systematic account of it, from materialism and theosophy to the Christian system or that of Kant, and I have always felt that they were much too simple.

I suspect that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of – or can be dreamed of – in any philosophy.”

- J.B.S. Haldane
 
Hey now, no one is saying the laws of physics are nonsense. But perhaps the "observed laws" aren't the full story? I really don't see why this is so hard for you to accept as a possibility ... do you really think we know it all? Or we almost do?
We know alot. So much so that we can easily dismiss your so-called experience with ease.
I lol at the thought.
You lol at your own ignorance and naivete? Okay.
I think that consciousness probably interacts with the 'external world' in ways that current basic physics cannot account for, sure. I don't rule out future science figuring things out that would absolutely blow the doors off the billiard-ball materialism that fearful reductionists cling to.
You can "think" whatever the heck you want and no one will care unless you have actual evidence.
I do not claim anything "supernatural" - merely "unknown" and/or mysterious.
ie. ignorance and incredulity.
Some of you seem deeply, deeply uncomfortable with the unknown and mysterious, have you noticed that? Don't feel OK until it's been bagged, tagged, and buried inthe "random meaningless abberant data, nothing to see here" pile ...
Wow; talk about projection. Sorry pal, people here are very interested in actual mysteries, not fantasies.
I'm amused by the multiple screennames on here who dismiss the coincidence of the teapots by stripping away the context entirely - thus reducing the story to the bare-bones level you can find comfort in - "wow, you bought a teapot and then you found one that was the same, big whoop" ... ignoring what I was thinking and feeling, the mystical experience and intuition-following lead-up, the fact that an insanely active 'urban explorer' had never been into his own crawlspace before, that I never bought teapots and only bought the one I did because I had a totally inexplicable intuitive desire to buy it, etc etc etc ...
Yes. It is easily dismissed and ignored because we know alot about how your "feelings" are completely and utterly unreliable and prone to error.
Many of you have simply dropped that stuff out of the equation entirely, while others seek to dismiss it by pretending that they have rational grounds to do so - that it is "more probable" that some kind of misfiring psychology has made me misremember what I was thinking and feeling (you know, in order to support this incredibly powerful woo-drive I have to believe in something super comforting like "I really don't understand the universe.') The latter approach might be more sophisticated than the former, but it's just that same reductionist-excuse-for-reasoning in action.
Yes. Isn't science and evidence great? It explains your reaction very well.
If you want to see "magical thinking," just read your own posts, fellows - what you're doing here is not reasoning, and it is not skepticism. You're True Believers in an utterly explicable world, willing to instantly dismiss anything that seems to challenge the ridiculously simplistic model you have of reality.
Did you think by just stating something is automatically magics it into reality? Sorry, reality does not care.
"Assigning meaning" is not a belief, so please try again - what conclusions have I come to?
That there is something mysterious when there isn't.
Perhaps that reality is more complex than our understanding of it is? That I don't have all the answers? That we can't tell the difference - even in theory - between a random pattern and a pattern with an unknown or even unknowable cause? That unknown or unknowable causes exist? That it is possible and even quite likely that there is a lot more going on than we know about - and given this, it's quite reasonable to abstain from leaping to firm conclusions about seemingly-aberrant data? Conclusions like "all strange coincidences and patterns are random"?
That's a whole lot of what ifs you have there. Any real evidence to back it up? No? Didn't think so.
Or wait - those just negations of faith-based conclusions that you guys hold, aren't they?
The irony is most amusing.
Reductionist rationalism is, indeed, a very powerful and useful tool. But it is not the only tool in the box. And the simplistic, useful models it employs are not to be mistaken for the reality, itself. It is merely one finger pointing in the direction of truth ... but rather than following where that finger points toward, some seem to prefer to suck on it for comfort.
Really? What other tools are they? I eagerly await your answer.
I find your lack of lack of faith disturbing.
I find yours idiotic.
 
Why would establishing that synchronicity exists mean that "the observed physical laws of the universe are basically complete nonsense"?

Moving from a mathematically based causality to a human meaning based causality makes a mockery of physics.

Did Einstein's findings about relativity mean that Newton's Laws are complete nonsense?

No.
 
Why would establishing that synchronicity exists mean that "the observed physical laws of the universe are basically complete nonsense"? Did Einstein's findings about relativity mean that Newton's Laws are complete nonsense?

No, but then they didn't deny the physics that was there before.
 
Hey now, no one is saying the laws of physics are nonsense. But perhaps the "observed laws" aren't the full story?

They aren't. But it doesn't justify jumping to conclusions without evidence. Ignorance is not a good reason to believe.

I really don't see why this is so hard for you to accept as a possibility

It isn't; only the evidence points in a different direction.

I think that consciousness probably interacts with the 'external world' in ways that current basic physics cannot account for, sure.

Why ? So far no evidence for this exists, and every test made about it failed to disprove the null hypothesis.

Some of you seem deeply, deeply uncomfortable with the unknown and mysterious, have you noticed that?

Appeal to emotions; another sure-fire way to put your credibility into question. I, for one, would love to become a wizard.

"Assigning meaning" is not a belief

It is if there is no meaning to be found. People assign meaning to stuff all the time. Hell, some people assign meaning to burn patterns on toasts.
 

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