UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh but the evidence clearly suggests quite strongly that there were NO operational Navy blimps on the West Coast in May 1949…

BIG WORDS FOR BETTER UNDERSTANDING, THERE WERE THREE OPERATIONAL NAVY RESERVE BLIMP SQUADRONS ON THE WEST COAST IN MAY 1949

your continued denial of the facts is dishonest, its ridiculous and its not winning you any arguments. You have been shown the evidence over and over, you are simply denying what you don't want to believe. You have as much credibility as Ken Ham. You are a UFO creationist
:rolleyes:
 
you could ?

ahem, coming soon
BIG SALE
announcing the sale of pieces of an intergalactic cruiser I dug up in my back yard. Each piece comes with a certificate of authenticity signed by whoevers desperate for money at the local university physics dept a genuine qualified physicist and Steven Hawking

each piece weighing approximately 1 gramme will cost £80,000 ono

description, miraculous metallic substance with the appearance and consistency of tinfoil but which reforms into its original flat shape when you unfold it and covered with mayan hieroglyphs
;)

I'd like to complain. My "Mayan hieroglyphs" turned out to be mayonnaise stains. I would like a refund.
 
I'd like to complain. My "Mayan hieroglyphs" turned out to be mayonnaise stains. I would like a refund.

aliens have mayonnaise for blood, you got a last will and testament written by a short lived crash survivor on yours, as such you should pay me double
:p
 
If you say so… but if you dispute my calculations then you must show WHY and HOW you do so… after all, I have provided detailed reasons why I dispute your calculations.

I will dispute your calculations... they are complete clap trap.
We don't know the size of the blimp object.
We don't know the distance from the viewer to the blimp object.
Without those two vital measurements, we can not tell how fast the blimp object was travelling.

What we DO have is the topography of the location... which is enough to dispute your assertion that the object could still be seen when it was 35 miles away. From sea level at Rogue River, you can not see for 35 miles.
It is a river valley... the blimp object soon went out of sight behind the surrounding hills.

Rogue-River.jpg


Here is the stretch of the river they were on at the time and this view is due East (to demonstrate the steep sided valley they were in the bottom of). This screen grab was taken at an elevation of 191ft so the scene could be better described. At Sea (River) level, the hills obscure even more of the viewing distance.
 
Appreciating a scientific approach...

Before we proceed I just wanted to make the point that I actually appreciate EHocking’s primary approach. He is a least trying to argue his points rationally and scientifically. Just because I happen to disagree with his conclusions does not mean I don’t respect the way he is arguing. I therefore commend him in that effort.

Moreover, with his Rogue River “trigonometric” calculations I am not saying he is “wrong” per se. Rather than simply dismiss the account out of hand because we do not know how far away the object was when it “disappeared”, he chose to scientifically relate it to an angular size measurement related to the resolution of the eye. This is a good scientific approach - I merely pointed out first that his distance assumptions might also have accounted for the “shininess” of the object – which would have made it visible over a greater distance – but that this was speculative. Second, and more substantially however, in his speed calculations, he assumed the object to be in a constant rate of motion the whole time…but based on the accounts, this was not the case. It was first moving toward the observers, then changed direction and speed. I pointed out that we needed account for this and in doing so arrived at different (greater) speed estimate, thus precluding a "blimp".

Moreover, as the calculations were based on a “blimp” sized object (55ft.), if indeed the object was around 30 ft. in diameter, then the “disappearance point” distance and estimated speeds would have come down commensurabley.

So thank you EHocking for your general approach. I really do appreciate it.
 
I will dispute your calculations... they are complete clap trap.
We don't know the size of the blimp object.
We don't know the distance from the viewer to the blimp object.
Without those two vital measurements, we can not tell how fast the blimp object was travelling.

What we DO have is the topography of the location... which is enough to dispute your assertion that the object could still be seen when it was 35 miles away. From sea level at Rogue River, you can not see for 35 miles.
It is a river valley... the blimp object soon went out of sight behind the surrounding hills.

[qimg]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/Rogue-River.jpg[/qimg]

Here is the stretch of the river they were on at the time and this view is due East (to demonstrate the steep sided valley they were in the bottom of). This screen grab was taken at an elevation of 191ft so the scene could be better described. At Sea (River) level, the hills obscure even more of the viewing distance.

Stray_Cat!

Please see this Google Earth image. The pin (UFO - should be labelled "Observer"... but it matters not) it is placed at 2 1/2 miles from the mouth of the River... which is where the observers say they were! Moreover, The direction we are looking is SSE from a height of 15 meters. The UFO would have generally crossed this field of View from right to left and out toward the left of the image.

Moreover, if the object was climbing South upward and outward, then the hills would not have obscured their view. Unfortunately they did not say whether the object maintained a constant outbound altitude, but by the same token, they never stated that “hills obscured our view” either.

Did you really think no-one would check up on you? You should have known that I would. You REALLY need to get your facts straight!
 

Attachments

  • Rogue_River_Oregon.jpg
    Rogue_River_Oregon.jpg
    81.1 KB · Views: 8
Last edited:
Sightings by observers of superior reliability

I have come across another extremely interesting case.

White Sands: Twinkle, Twinkle Little Craft (April-May 1950)
(http://www.nicap.org/ncp/ncp-brumac.htm)


The following is a snip of some of the details:

“ 1. Per request of Dr. A. O. Mirarchi, during a recent visit to this base, the following information is submitted.
2. Sightings were made on 27 April and 24 May 1950 of aerial phenomena during morning daylight hours at this station. The sightings were made by Land-Air, Inc., personnel while engaged in tracking regular projects with Askania Phototheodolites. It has been reported that objects are sighted in some number; as many as eight have been visible at one time. The individuals making these sightings are professional observers. Therefore I would rate their reliability superior. In both cases photos were taken with Askanias.
3. The Holloman AF Base Data Reduction Unit analyzed the 27 April pictures and made a report, a copy of which I am enclosing with the film for your information. It was believed that triangulation could be effected from pictures taken on 24 May because pictures were taken from two stations. The films were rapidly processed and examined by Data Reduction. However, it was determined that sightings were made on two different objects and triangulation could not be effected. A report from Data Reduction and the films from the sighting are enclosed.

The Data Reduction report attached to the letter reads as follows:
“Objects observed following MX776A test of 27 April 1950"
2nd Lt. (name censored) EHOSIR 15 May 50
1. According to conversation between Col. Baynes and Capt. Bryant, the following information is submitted directly to Lt. Albert.
2. Film from station P10 was read, resulting in azimuth and elevation angles being recorded on four objects. In addition, size of image on film was recorded.
3. From this information, together with a single azimuth angle from station M7, the following conclusions were drawn:
a). The objects were at an altitude of approximately 150,000 ft.
b). The objects were over the Holloman range between the base and Tularosa Peak.
c). The objects were approximately 30 feet in diameter.
d). The objects were traveling at an undeterminable, yet high speed
 
Rramjet said:
I have contended that the Iranian UFO provides (at least partial) evidence that might lead us to a conclusion that "aliens exist" (remembering my definition of "alien" as "Intelligent agencies acting outside the bounds of what we take to be the limits of the natural world")

Tehran UFO Incident (19 Sep 1976)
http://www.brumac.8k.com/IranJetCase/
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_file...p_ufo_iran.pdf
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_file...ow_you_see.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tehran_UFO_incident

I have also provided a list of reasons WHY I think this case is compelling:
Ok, but plenty of people have responded to this already. Didn't you notice?

Rramjet said:
First: that the case is well documented (ie: it was not merely "a figment of someone's imagination")
Well documented? I see ONE(1) document describing the incident. You got more?

Rramjet said:
Second: it has Iranian Airforce jets chasing a UFO and THEN being chased by the UFO!
So it is written in the ONE report we have. If true, how does this make it alien?

Rramjet said:
Third: The object itself is ENTIRELY "weird" (unlike ANYTHING that could be labelled a "blimp"
Define "weird" please.

Rramjet said:
Fourth: There was radar confirmation of the object as well as multiple witnesses (not to mention the pilots)
So it is written in the ONE report we have. I have seen no radar confirmation. If true, how does this make it alien?

Rramjet said:
Fifth: the UFO(s) was able to affect its' surroundings (ie; the instrumentation and functionality of the fighter jets)
So it is written in the ONE report we have. If true, how does this make it alien?

Rramjet said:
Sixth: The UFO(s) seemed to exhibit intelligent control - (fleeing, affecting, and chasing)
So it is written in the ONE report we have. If true, how does this make it alien?

Rramjet said:
Seventh: I note also that the Iranian UFO exhibited many characteristics that preclude mundane explanations - including its’ shape, speed, maneuverability and the ability to join and split apart. For example: "as he continued in his turn away from the primary object the second object went to the inside of his turn then returned to the primary object for a perfect rejoin. Shortly after the second object joined up with the primary object another object appeared to come out of the other side of the primary object going straight down, at a great rate of speed." Is just ONE example showing human involvement to be HIGHLY implausible. Note also the "intelligent control" point.

So it is written in the ONE report we have. If true, how does this make it alien? Also, this seems to be a summary of some of the points you've already listed.


Rramjet said:
Now some have contended that this is all second hand information and thus not of any value. However, from the first link above (http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_file...p_ufo_iran.pdf) (and noting carefully that the pilot involved was a primary source for this information):

On page 2 of the "Routing Slip" we find under:
"B. RELIABILITY OF INFORMATION" that

"1. Confirmed by other sources" is checked
[and it is checked in preference over 2. Substantially true, 3. Cannot be judged, 4 Doubtful and 5. False]

Then by all means, provide the documentation from those other sources and the original statement from the pilot.

Rramjet said:
...and in the very next panel:

VALUE OF INFORMATION, we find that
"1 High (unique, Timely, and of Major Significance)" is checked
[in preference over - 2. Contributory and Useful, 3. Low (marginal), 4. None (of no use) and 5. Cannot be judged (analyst has no basis for value judgement)].
I know you will hate this and think I'm an idiot for asking, but how do you know that the person writing this report has the qualifications necessary to evaluate UFO cases?
 
Ok Rramjet, guess I better repost this then since you seem to have missed it the first time:

Rramjet said:

I notice that you often tend to provide multiple links to the same information like you do here. Many repetitions of the same thing doesn't make it more valid. In this case there is mention of physical samples being analyzed but I fail to find anything about the procedures for collecting the samples, the protocols used in the research or the results. If you have that I would be happy to take a look. Can't say much else without that.

ETA: The only other reference to the samples I found was from Eric Maillot who seems to be very critical about the protocol/procedure used in examining the samples. I haven't found his complete analysis either so can't say much about that either.
 
I'll post a link in a few hours to the Kelley/Hopkinsville incident, and you can read the account.
Experiencing some time dilation?

Speaking of, have you ever you looked at the actual Project Blue Book file on this case? (you can find it on Footnote) There’s a couple of things I found in there you might find interesting. In my experience it’s usually best to start from primary sources, preferably recorded as close to the time of the incident as possible. UFO websites and books often leave out important information and are rarely, if ever, updated to include new information and findings that have become available over time. (especially if it runs contrary to the “status quo” of Saucer Logic)

If I am in factual error, please feel free to correct my mistakes! I do recall reading thre were multiple shots fired on more than one occasion.
You are correct, there were allegedly multiple shots fired (in all “about four boxes of .22 pistol shells” is what they told a Deputy Sheriff at the time but “only about four shots” were heard according to a neighbor who “mistook them for fire-crackers” which is one of the interesting things you’ll find in the Blue Book file) at different times over a period of three or four hours (not exactly the firefight I pictured?) but the way you worded it, it sounded like you meant there were multiple shots fired at “point blank” range. My understanding is it was claimed (in addition to at least one in the tree, on the roof, and in the window) at some point one shot was fired at “nearly point blank” range… whatever that means. (couldn’t possibly have missed?)

Anyway, I’ll have to catch up with the rest of this thread later…
 
From Rramjets post:

Apparently it was coming from the East.

IF it had traveled directly toward the witnesses

From the witness statements of estimated height and distance one gets the impression that

One would expect that if the angle did get to be as high as 40 degrees

etc...

There you see for yourself how hard it is to evaluate a case from just witness testimony. There's a whole bunch of if's but's and guesses. It's a fail.
 
Oh but the evidence clearly suggests quite strongly that there were NO operational Navy blimps on the West Coast in May 1949…

(bolding mine)

Seriously?!?! Really?!?! I'm sure not even you can still be so clueless about what we have been discussing for the last several pages. This is just dishonest debating tactics.
 
I just want to add to this discussion that I'm amazed about how really, really badly each and every UFO case is researched and documented. If real scientific research was done this way in the scientific community we'd be dead a long time ago. Even in cases where it is said that physical evidence is available, it is collected, handled, analyzed and documented in such a clumsy way that all that is left is hearsay. UFOlogists, please get your act together.
 
I just want to add to this discussion that I'm amazed about how really, really badly each and every UFO case is researched and documented. If real scientific research was done this way in the scientific community we'd be dead a long time ago. Even in cases where it is said that physical evidence is available, it is collected, handled, analyzed and documented in such a clumsy way that all that is left is hearsay. UFOlogists, please get your act together.

Then you won't mind providing your opinion on this case then...

White Sands: Twinkle, Twinkle Little Craft (April-May 1950)
(http://www.nicap.org/ncp/ncp-brumac.htm)
 
(bolding mine)

Seriously?!?! Really?!?! I'm sure not even you can still be so clueless about what we have been discussing for the last several pages. This is just dishonest debating tactics.

Then perhaps you should actually review the evidence (see link below) and tell me where it is “dishonest. Can you do that? No, I did not think so. All talk, no substance.

 
Then perhaps you should actually review the evidence (see link below) and tell me where it is “dishonest. Can you do that? No, I did not think so. All talk, no substance.

Bringing up something that we all agree on and pretending that it's all that the discussion is about is dishonest tactics in my book. Noone is disputing that the NAVY ceased it's operations. Don't pretend like you don't know what I'm talking about.
 
Then you won't mind providing your opinion on this case then...

White Sands: Twinkle, Twinkle Little Craft (April-May 1950)
(http://www.nicap.org/ncp/ncp-brumac.htm)

Of course not. I'll try my best to summarize the text and provide some questions/comments.

Phenomena observed:
(generally) bright green lights moving (generally) horizontally through the night sky and then dropping downward slightly and going out. These became to be known as "green fireballs."

Initial data
Sighting catalogue compiled by Lt. Col. Rees of the 17th District Office of Special Investigations at Kirtland, AFB.

In 1949
Sandia Base (Albuquerque) - 17 sightings
Los Alamos area - 26 sightings
Vaughn area - none;
Holloman AFB/Alamogordo/White Sands area - 12
other areas - 20;
total - 75.

In 1950 (jan-march)
Sandia Base (Albuquerque) - 6 (all in February)
Los Alamos area - 7
Vaughn area 1
Holloman AFB/Alamogordo/White Sands area - 6
other areas - 6
total - 26.

Hypothesis:
Dr. Lincoln La Paz, a famous meteoricist (a scientist) who studies meteor and meteorites),
declared that they weren't normal meteors. He told the Air Force and the FBI that if these weren't special devices resulting from our own (United States) secret research, then they could be Russian and in any event were a potential threat to our "vital installations" (FBI terminology) where nuclear weapon research was carried out.

Research:
An observation program to scientifically record the fireballs.
Project director: Dr. Anthony Mirarchi, Chief of the Air Composition Branch at Geophysical Research Division (GRD) at the Air Force Cambridge Research Laboratory (AFCRL). (retired from AFCRL in October, 1950, so he did not write the final report.). Projects final report written by Dr. Louis Elterman.

On February 21 an observation post, set up at Holloman with a theodolite, telescope and camera. 24 hour watch from the first of April that would last for six months, with Land- Air personnel operating cinetheodolites (theodolites with movie cameras) and with Holloman AFB personnel manning spectrographic cameras and radio frequency receivers.

(phototheodolite are "essentially movie cameras with big telephoto lenses and accurate direction indicators". Source: http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/09/23/rockets-flight-kept-in-sight/)

Results
- Sightings on april 27 and may 24, 1950
- as many as eight have been visible at one time
- photos taken on both occasions
- The Holloman AF Base Data Reduction Unit analyzed the 27 April pictures and made a report, it was determined that sightings were made on two different objects and triangulation could not be effected.

Data reduction report
Author: Wilbur L. Mitchell, Mathematician, Data Reduction Unit
Film from station P10 was read, resulting in azimuth and elevation angles being recorded on four objects.

The objects were at an altitude of approximately 150,000 ft.
The objects were over the Holloman range between the base and Tularosa Peak.
The objects were approximately 30 feet in diameter.
The objects were traveling at an undeterminable, yet high speed

Final report
Dr. Elterman, at the Atmospheric Physics Laboratory (APL) of the Geophysical Research Division (GRD) of the Air Force Cambridge Research Laboratory (AFCRL). According to Dr. Elterman’s report, Project Twinkle was a dismal failure: "no information was gained." He recommended it be discontinued. His recommendation was accepted.

A dismal failure or a cover up?
It seems like the person writing this article is questioning why the final report was so negative despite the fact that it contained interesting results. In the chapter "A dismal failure or a cover up?" it is questioned why an observation station was set up in Vaughn where no/few observations had been made previously and not in Los Alamos or White Sands.

This is a strange question to me because there is no mention of an observation post in Vaughn at all in the text. The data was collected from an observation post at Holloman where many observations had been made before the research program.

I would venture a guess that it was discontinued because the aquired data was unreliable. It is mentioned that "triangulation could not be effected" and that would affect accuracy of the analysis (height, speed etc.). I realize that that is just speculation and there is no way of knowing without having access to the complete final report. So. if you have it, please link it.

That's it for now.
 
Last edited:
Some more comments on the authors ramblings at the end of the article:

Even Elterman admits that things were seen!

Yes he does, but since there is not enough data available for analysis nothing can be said about them. Without triangulation, how could you make a reliable estimation of altitude f ex? It remains a UFO.

No! Certainly information “is gained” when a number of qualified obervers simultaneously view unidentified objects from various locations. And more information is gained if some of these observers film these objects through cinetheodolite telescopes. There is useful information even if a “proper triangulation” is not accomplished.
I disagree with the author. See above.

And there is even more information gained if a proper triangulation is accomplished...and one was accomplished, only Eltermann didn’t mention it!

Ehh, how does the author know this? Source anyone?

Furthermore, Elterman’s statement that a time correlation study should be done to assure that the records contained no significant material sounds as if Elterman had already concluded that there was no worthwhile evidence in the film. Does this sound like an unbiased investigation?
It sounds like Elterman wanted to make sure that he was correct in his assessment that nothing further could be gained from the films.

And finally, my favourite citation. Imo describing the woo at it's finest:

So what, if the size, distance and speed estimates might be wrong....something was there, obviously large, fast and unusual or the camera crews wouldn’t have bothered to film it!

Can't determine size, distance or speed, yet it is obvious that it was large, fast and unusual. Hilarious logic.
 
Rramjet, can you explain why piling up a lot of unconvincing "evidence" should somehow convince people?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom