Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[sonofgloin]

Originally Posted by paximperium
What I do care about is facts. You spoke BS; was called on the BS and refuse to do the honest thing and actually correct yourself. That is what I call dishonesty.

Pax to settle this tell me what I lied about (the BS) be specific as for a newish arrival I have said much today.

I see you have disregarded this post....why....no lies perhaps, just a zealots rant. You saw the deceit, tell us all what you found.

 

[joobz]

Actually I have presented evidence for the resurrection:

that's not evidence at best it's hearsay.

I've also listed the 11 apostles who were martyred, which makes the resurrection more likely than if one, two, or none were martyred.

That's not evidence for the resurrection. Nor is it even a reliable statement.

And I've explained how it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to exist without the resurrection, so the fact that it does exist and is the largest religion in the world can be considered partial evidence. This is so obvious, but most people never consider it.

This is like saying "it doesn't even make sense for scientology to exist without Xenu being real..."


So, my statement holds.

 

[joobz]

Explain how any miracle of Jesus is a dishonest parlor trick.

fooling drunks that water became wine isn't hard. (I assume you never worked a party).

Walking on water is easily faked.

 

[Paulhoff]

Explain how any miracle of Jesus is a dishonest parlor trick.

Oh, that's right, nothing written about Jesus was ever dishonest. Nope, it's all true, well, it has to be, and it’s in the bible. Not written anywhere else, but gee, you know, come on the bible says it all. But one of the many funny things is that Jesus did talk as if he was coming back before his disciples tasted dead, but we can read over that part, just that one part, all the rest is OK.

Paul

 

[joobz]

Another unexplained post. Without an explanation, this is a trollish statement. I can go into any thread on the system and say the same thing after any post.

You would think after I have complained about unexplained posts at least twice before people would start explaining their statements to sustain their own credibility, but I guess not.

Here's a few for you:

I don't have a problem with Jews. Joseph, Mary, Jesus, all 12 of the apostles, and the evangelist/apostle Paul, were all Jews.

And the only reason I brought up the archaeology is that someone implied there were Jewish websites that show (thru archeology) Jesus was not the Messiah. I've already shown in the thread mentioned in post #1 of this thread that a famous archaeologist claimed Gospel writer Luke was a great historian (partly due to archaeology). And if we have archeological evidence that gospel writer Luke is a great historian, then that certainly makes it more likely that Jesus was who he said he was.

At least I brought some info in this thread about a famous Archaeologist (Sir William Mitchell Ramsay) who praised the Bible and Luke for their accuracy. What have you brought in about the topic? Zero

And if you would have followed the flow of the discourse (which I doubt you did) you would have seen I was trying to show how the circumstances in the apostles martyrdom (from the Bible's account) differed from those of other martyrs. If you don't want to believe the biblical story from someone like Gospel writer Luke who Sir William Mitchell Ramsay called one of the world's great historians that is your right.

Actually Luke (the physician), who many say was a first rate historian and was highly detailed about events and places, wrote the reason that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem was because Caesar Augustus sent out a decree that the world should be taxed. And since Joseph was from the house of David, which was from Bethlehem. Joseph and his family went to Bethlehem.

And if the stories were made up you'd think that the four gospel writers would correlate their stories exactly. But the fact that their are some minor inconsistencies in their stories shows that they were written independent of each other.

Also if someone is dishonest enough to make stuff up could they really come up with the incredible wisdom and ethics of Christ that even Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin basically said was the finest that ever existed and as Franklin said will probably ever exist.

Talk about cherry picking at its worst -- and this non-story related city might have existed 2000 years ago but not now. This is why archaeologists like Sir William Mitchell Ramsay mentioned earlier used Luke and the bible as a valuable research resource. -- and I noticed other than the one footnote there are no sources for your bunch of geographical and historical details he supposedly got wrong. I think the 84 detailed facts written by Luke mentioned on pages -256 - 260 of Geisler's book that can be accessed through the site below speak volumes of his detailed accuracy.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PCGhbTrI9QoC&pg=PA256&dq=Geisler+Luke+Colin+Hemer+84+facts&lr=&as_brr=0

This is false of course because you won't be able to show any post that demonstrates this.

Here you go:

I've also listed the 11 apostles who were martyred, which makes the resurrection more likely than if one, two, or none were martyred.

This is both an appeal to numbers and a faulty premise. We've shown evidence that people can be martyred for false reasons and false beliefs. The numbers of these martyrs is irrelevant. It is possible for them all to be wrong.

 

[pakeha]

Actually I have presented evidence for the resurrection:

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

I've also listed the 11 apostles who were martyred, which makes the resurrection more likely than if one, two, or none were martyred.

And I've explained how it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to exist without the resurrection, so the fact that it does exist and is the largest religion in the world can be considered partial evidence. This is so obvious, but most people never consider it.

Thanks for the link, DOC. JoshMcDowall's site is always so inspiring.

FACT #1: BROKEN ROMAN SEAL
As we have said, the first obvious fact was the breaking of the seal that stood for the power and authority of the Roman Empire. The consequences of breaking the seal were extremely severe. The FBI and CIA of the Roman Empire were called into action to find the man or men who were responsible. If they were apprehended, it meant automatic execution by crucifixion upside down. People feared the breaking of the seal. Jesus' disciples displayed signs of cowardice when they hid themselves. Peter, one of these disciples, went out and denied Christ three times.

We're told 3 women went to this sealed tomb to anoint Jesus' body. How did they expect to enter the tomb?

 

[Akhenaten]

"Wann der Tschock awer en Loch hot?
Dummer Ding, dann schtopp'n zu!"

Was bedeutet das?

"When the jug has a hole
Stupid thing, then stop it up!"​

Linky

The song incorporates an infinite-loop motif.

There's a lot of it about.

 

[Paulhoff]

We're told 3 women went to this sealed tomb to anoint Jesus' body. How did they expect to enter the tomb?

''Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive''

Paul

 

[Akhenaten]

You may "add" but no one gives a rat's ass as to your recommendations.

So you don't believe in miracles but you can read the minds of the 180 posters in here. Statements like yours show a very angry bitter person.

Total so far: 37

 

[paximperium]

Here's a few for you:

Here you go:

This is both an appeal to numbers and a faulty premise. We've shown evidence that people can be martyred for false reasons and false beliefs. The numbers of these martyrs is irrelevant. It is possible for them all to be wrong.

Joobz strikes the heart...but wait, it will not die!!!!

 

[sonofgloin]

Originally Posted by pakeha
We're told 3 women went to this sealed tomb to anoint Jesus' body. How did they expect to enter the tomb?

''Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive''
Paul

Nit picking is self debasing, just wanted to share this with you Paul.
This is all conjecture, who the hell knows what these women had in mind when they left for the tomb, but they went prepaired to annoint the body and woild handle the seal when they arrived...here is what the bible states:


Mark 16:1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 And they said among themselves, "Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?"

4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away–for it was very large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. 6 But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen!
He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.

I told Pax I would not debate the theme of the thread, but you guys are so zealous about your views, it is a revelation to me. So I am going to stick around for a while, I have only experienced the petulant and pedantic musings of the fundies on other forums, and here I find petulant and pedantic in the opposing team to the fundies. It is interesting how different forums have different character.

 

[sonofgloin]

Originally Posted by DOC
Actually I have presented evidence for the resurrection:

that's not evidence at best it's hearsay.

From another sourse perhaps.

Tacitus “probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament.”
The quote, supposed to have been written around 117 AD, reads:
“Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome .”

Well Tacitus knew of him and his demise, or did he invent it?

 

[Akhenaten]

I told Pax I would not debate the theme of the thread, but you guys are so zealous about your views, it is a revelation to me. So I am going to stick around for a while, I have only experienced the petulant and pedantic musings of the fundies on other forums, and here I find petulant and pedantic in the opposing team to the fundies. It is interesting how different forums have different character.

Zealous? Petulant? Pedantic?

Duuuuuuuude!

From another sourse perhaps.

Well Tacitus knew of him and his demise, or did he invent it?

Invented it. Or do you have evidence that such is not the case?

 

[paximperium]

Well Tacitus knew of him and his demise, or did he invent it?

Still spreading this nonsense huh? I already called you on this BS and you continue with it. Most amusing.

 

[paximperium]

Zealous? Petulant? Pedantic?

Duuuuuuuude!

Exactly. He needs to look at a mirror. It is pretty funny though.

 

[AdinDraco]

fooling drunks that water became wine isn't hard. (I assume you never worked a party).

Walking on water is easily faked.

My problem with this is that we don't have any reason to believe that these events even happened. I don't need to explain how Jesus may have walked on water because I don't have any reason to believe he did.

As a kid, I too was most interested in the scientific explanations for why in the case of Moses, the water would have turned red, plagues etc (volcanic activity was one theory) and recently the parting of the red sea was argued to maybe have happened in a different spot (basically he crossed a marsh on a windy day) BUT I have since realised that we have NO reason to believe that the plagues even happened or that any mass escape of slaves occured.

Explaining how water may have appeared to be turned into wine is like debating how ESP works (biochemical electro-magnetic fields etc etc) - the actual phenomenon has not be shown to exist, let alone require explanation.

 

[zooterkin]

Nit picking is self debasing, just wanted to share this with you Paul.

Is it? Oh, dear.

This is all conjecture, who the hell knows what these women had in mind when they left for the tomb, but they went prepaired to annoint the body and woild handle the seal when they arrived...here is what the bible states:


Mark 16:1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 And they said among themselves, "Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?"

4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away–for it was very large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. 6 But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen!
He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.

And let's just add the next couple of verses for completeness:

7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "
8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

So, three women. A young man in the tomb. No guards. No earthquake. The women too afraid to say anything to anyone. No Jesus.

What does Matthew say?

Matthew 28
The Resurrection
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

Two women. An angel sitting outside the tomb. The guards 'like dead men'. An earthquake. The women go to tell the disciples, and on the way they see Jesus.

Oh dear. What does Luke say?

Luke 24
The Resurrection
1On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " 8Then they remembered his words.

9When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

Unspecified number of women, but at least 5. Two young men. No guards. No earthquake. The women go to tell the disciples. No Jesus.


Perhaps John can clear up the confusion?

John 20
The Empty Tomb
1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"

3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"

"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."

16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).

17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

No, that didn't help, a completely different sequence of events. One woman, who fetches the disciples No guards. Two angels in the tomb, but seen only after the disciples have been. Jesus appears.


So, how many people went to the tomb, and what did they see, and who did they tell?


ETA: How many young men, or angels, and were they inside or outside the tomb? Was Jesus's mother there? Was there any sign of guards? Did Peter go in the tomb? Did Jesus appear?


ETA2: Even if you still believe the gospels were actually written by Matthew, Mark, etc., the people who went to the tomb were all women, so at best we're looking at hearsay at one remove.

I told Pax I would not debate the theme of the thread, but you guys are so zealous about your views, it is a revelation to me. So I am going to stick around for a while, I have only experienced the petulant and pedantic musings of the fundies on other forums, and here I find petulant and pedantic in the opposing team to the fundies. It is interesting how different forums have different character.

Exactly what are you finding zealous and petulant? Insistence on evidence?

 

[AdinDraco]

Ha, ha Zooterkin, you would have kicked butt on the easter question game on the last easter episode of the Atheist Experience - I had my bible out and was looking it up as the quiz went on.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...lSvvPCIKcwgOo-9S4Dg&q=atheist+experience+600#

Btw, can anyone tell me how Judas died? The answer may surprise you.
BBtw, I don't want to make the same mistake as those who would argue (wrongly) that the bible says pi = 3, if any hard-core bible scholars, who are atheists, want to put me right on the Judas question, go for it.

 

[Lothian]

Btw, can anyone tell me how Judas died? The answer may surprise you.

Let me guess. He is a character in the bible, the unerring word of God. I am going to go for; conflicting accounts.

 

[sonofgloin]

Is it? Oh, dear.

\
And let's just add the next couple of verses for completeness:


So, three women. A young man in the tomb. No guards. No earthquake. The women too afraid to say anything to anyone. No Jesus.

What does Matthew say?



Two women. An angel sitting outside the tomb. The guards 'like dead men'. An earthquake. The women go to tell the disciples, and on the way they see Jesus.

Oh dear. What does Luke say?



Unspecified number of women, but at least 5. Two young men. No guards. No earthquake. The women go to tell the disciples. No Jesus.


Perhaps John can clear up the confusion?


No, that didn't help, a completely different sequence of events. One woman, who fetches the disciples No guards. Two angels in the tomb, but seen only after the disciples have been. Jesus appears.


So, how many people went to the tomb, and what did they see, and who did they tell?


ETA: How many young men, or angels, and were they inside or outside the tomb? Was Jesus's mother there? Was there any sign of guards? Did Peter go in the tomb? Did Jesus appear?



Exactly what are you finding zealous and petulant? Insistence on evidence?

I can only again say that from 6 or 7 hundred books down to seventy, a lot of different accounts of the same event, no suprise. If anything given the manner the texts were transcribed for the best part of 1500 years I can understand the errors in editing. If anything I would regard it as a positive, many accounts with the plot being the same but through the eyes of differing scribes.
Please note I do not mention reserection, just that the historical events are plausable.