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Information on Protocol for Pavel Ziborov Applicant
- Thread starter RemieV
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- pavel ziborov
fromdownunder
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Do we even know if Pavel has contacted the JREF (apart from his email to Randi himself) since his file was closed? If I missed something, I am sorry, but AFAIK, his last email to JREF was the request that his file be closed, so the JREF has nothing further to go by or respond to. Randi's response was quite specific. Take it up with the JREF.
If he has not done this, there is nothing further to respond to.
Norm
Here you go:
The point of my inquiry to the JREF is an acknowledgement of said letter and a response.
It's been almost seven weeks. Is it unreasonable to expect at least a simple "We have received Pavel Ziborov's inquiry on the xx of yyy. We have determined that zzz." in Pavel's Challenge Application thread?
Czarcasm
Groovy Groovy Guru
So the answer is no, he did not contact JREF directly.
pavel_do
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I did not contact JREF directly if you mean by that if I went to their office and knocked the door..
But I have sent email DIRECTLY to RANDI ( to which he replayed - "Do not write to me. Alison handles these matters.") I emailed same letter to Alison and copy to StartZ as always. From reply of RANDI u can see he got it.. I am sure Alison got it too, same as copy have arrived to Startz...
Plus as u all know I posted letter on forum in new tread that been than merged by moderators (out of everyone sight) to the current forum.
If some one doubt that I sent emails to JREF.. please call them or email and ask.. I cant prove it seems like..
But here if FULL copy of letter from RANDI including BODY letter from me..
where u can see RANDI sent copy of his reply also to 2 more addreses, I made it bold so u can see...
"RE: James Randi Educational Foundation: Unfair decision and misspresenting the facts!
...
From:
James Randi <[email protected]>
...
To: Pavel Ziborov <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]; Philip Plait <[email protected]>
Do not write to me. Alison handles these matters.
James Randi
-----Original Message-----
From: Pavel Ziborov [mailto
[email protected]]Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: James Randi Educational Foundation: Unfair decision and
misspresenting the facts!
This is an enquiry e-mail via http://www.randi.org/site/ from:
Pavel Ziborov <[email protected]>
To Mr. James Randi,
201 S.E.
12th Street Ft Lauderdale
Florida 33316
USA
I am writing to you in regards to JREF's decision to close my file, with th
reason - " In accordance with the suggestions from other JREF staff, Pavel
was given one last opportunity to simplify his protocol. He has declined,
and his Challenge file has been closed."
The JREF stuff is misrepresented the facts in favor of the JREF and
presenting me in false light.
This is unexceptionably as it is. I was given NO chance but to refuse the
protocol, that is absolutely UNFAIR and guarantees that I will not be able
to perform claimed by me abilities, the conditions offered to me is making
it impossible to. As claimed by me ability and success rate CANNOT be
reliably tested with 20 trials that has been offered with no other options.
The JREF imposed a limit on the number of trials which is too low to test
the ability as stated in the application. The JREF's proposed test would
only give me a 25% chance of passing it, even if I indeed have the ability I
claime. A protocol for 100 trials test that was refused is not unreasonable,
and the fact that it is refused seems unreasonable and unfair due to the
facts:
1. The time required for test did not violate JREF's limits of 8 hours.
2. It was reviewed by independent statistician (who previously worked
with JREF) and according to his opinion it was good enough for testing. He
did not pointed any of options where the protocol seemed unfair and would
give me at any point the advantage to win by chance and not by the claimed
ability.
3. From your response one of the reasons to refuse it and limit it to a
20 trials, was the cost of it. According the JREF's rules I have to pay all
the expanses related to test, so I see no reason why is JREF concerned about
costs.
The designed and discussed protocol of 100 pairs test, meets the generally
understood requirements. The probability of winning by chance is less than 1
in 1,000. The time taken is within the bounds of previous challenges. I bear
the expenses. I believe there are adequate guards against cheating. The
protocol has been checked by an independent statistician (who was kind
enough to volunteer his time) who is familiar with the challenge process.
The protocol seems to have met with enough approval by the JREF staff that
it was deemed suitable for final presentation to you.
The fact that the latest protocol was discussed with JREF for ONE year
period, and not even once the JREF expressed it concerns about it as being
unreasonable and unacceptable. So the sudden letter limiting the test and
offering me no choice but to refuse it and my file to be closed, I consider
as unfair!
I strongly believe that I was treated unfairly, unjustly and even
fraudulently in some way. As I am presented on the JREF's applicants page in
a false light, as a person who was given fair chances, time and conditions
for testing the claimed ability but I have refused it. That is absolute
false and lie!
There for, I would appreciate the JREF reopening my file and hold fair test
or if JREF find the proposed protocol unacceptable and giving me chance to
cheat or win in a fraudulent way, officially explain your point and reasons
for refusing protocol and limiting me to a conditions that is unfair! I ask
of you, to amend the record on the JREFS applicant log, as it misrepresent
the fact and as I have said before presents me in false light to a people
who were not involved in any way in to protocol negotiation and are not
familiar to any other threads on the JREF forums that related to the matter.
Sincerely yours,
Pavel Ziborov "
p.s. U can argue that I have asked them to close file and bla bla bla.. so that is why they ignore it.. But they present me in FALSE LIGHT on APPLICANTS PAGE.. and its also ignored... They are not BOTHERED even to make this clear...
Ok me.. I been ignored for months even before, so its no news that they ignore "pest" like Pavel.. But even request from Forum Member "GzuzKryzt" has been ignored for soon 2 month... Why?? Too busy?? Ok.... good excuse..
What can I say.. Courtesy and respect even in replying to letters and Questions its not about JREF.. So no point to expect any reply and more than that FAIR handling negotiations with any other applicant!
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fromdownunder
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Thank you. This answers my question. I already knew from this thread that you had contacted Randi personally, and got a response, I was just not aware until now that you also contacted Alison (the JREF) at the same time.
Just so as I can be clear, the events are (leaving aside the direct email to Randi have been:
1. JREF asked you to redo your protocol with only 20 photos in the test or your file would be closed.
2. You emailed JREF telling them to close your file, as you could see no way to fulfil a protocol with only 20 photos.
3. You later decided to appeal the closure and emailed JREF with the same letter you sent Randi (reproduced above).
4. You have recieved no response to that letter from the JREF.
Does that pretty much sum it up?
Norm
pavel_do
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1. YES here is the letter from them ( by the way that is the last letter I ever got from JREF side..(leaving a side answer from Randi)
"Testing
...
Thu, August 20, 2009 4:09:07 AM
From:
Alison Smith <[email protected]>
...
To: Pavel <[email protected]>
Pavel,
Thank you for your continued patience. Now that the TAM dust has cleared, we can again take a look at your protocol. As I said before, I asked other JREF staff to weigh in on whether or not they believed your proposed protocol was workable.
Mr. Randi said:
Suggest that he merely identify for us which of two photos are in an envelope, 20 times. We cannot satisfy each and every whim, and it’s too expensive.
I’d say, if he refuses, he’s refused to be tested.
***
What do you think of simplifying the protocol to that level? Is that a possibility?
If not, I will do as Mr. Randi has suggested, and close your file.
Kindest regards,
Alison Smith
Research Assistant
James Randi Educational Foundation"
2. YES.
3. YES ( appeal also against the fact that they present me in False light on applicants page)
4. YES. No reply what so ever ( beside 1 line from Randi)
fromdownunder
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OK, given Paval's reply immediately above, the time that he put into his application, and the time that JREF spent in dealing with the application, I believe that in principle, the JREF owes Pavel a response a little less terse than Randi's personal one liner, which I actually find OK - Randi was quite possibly, as others have said, not aware of the effort both sides, and members from this Board had put into developing a potential protocol.
So, GzuzKryzt, I admire your persistance. Mayber Alison of somebody else from JREF does read the Boards occasionally (or their own email accounts) and will respond eventually.
Norm
So, GzuzKryzt, I admire your persistance. Mayber Alison of somebody else from JREF does read the Boards occasionally (or their own email accounts) and will respond eventually.
Norm
I sent my inquiries via PM to Jeff Wagg and RemieV. Barring some three time software glitch, one can assume they got the messages.
jsfisher
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I don't mean to split hairs, here, but I feel this is important. Did you send exactly the same letter to Alison as the one to Randi you posted here, or did you re-address so it was clear to Alison you were writing to her and no simply copying her on your message to Randi?
dropzone
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(A father who was a federal judge, a brother who was an attorney general, and another brother who is a successful trial lawyer? I'm opting out of this one based on hairs too-spit for reason, so weekday dinners were educational.)
To make sure we are ALL talking about the same thing, shouldn't ALL previous letters be discarded?
To make sure we are ALL talking about the same thing, shouldn't ALL previous letters be discarded?
jsfisher
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You don't treat an email differently when it is addressed to you versus when it is addressed to someone else? The former usually requests a response while the latter simply provides information.
Why would you think so?
pavel_do
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I think you are split hairs here... Any way.. I sent Alison the same letter as to James Randi, with subject "Attention to Mr.James Randi.." I am sure if I would address it to Alison than it would be other splitting hair..as Alison decides nothing there and I should have write to the one who in charge... Its clear that they received my letter, and as you can see from Randi's letter he forwarded it to other chaps in charge there.. and still no reaction... why?? You have to be blind not to see the point in my letter and treat it like "wimp" using Randi's word... Any way.. maybe soon again some one will be called here Barking dog and maybe there will be some reply and clear explanations from JREF side.. but to be honest I am not holding my breath for it or any fair action from JREF, maybe offensive letter making them right and me wrong... just as from Applicants page.. its mispresents facts in Alison statements.. and I am finding it unfair why I am the applicant cant write anything there?? cause I would post the same letter there, so who ever read my application page could see that JREF not exactly correct in there statement!
jsfisher
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Ok, you wrote to Randi and provided a copy to Alison (and some others).
You did get a reaction. Randi responded directly to you. You addressed the email to Randi; Randi answered.
Now, if you are looking for more information from, say, Alison, then compose an email to her with your specific concerns. Don't whine; don't gripe; focus on the questions you'd like answered.
You continue to accuse Randi specifically and the JREF in general of treating you unfairly. I'm having trouble seeing it through the cloud of misdirection and misrepresentation you are creating.
Czarcasm
Groovy Groovy Guru
In short, you did not address a letter to JREF directly(as you've been asked to do many times)-you sent a copy of your letter to James Randi to them, giving them the very reasonable assumption that you wanted a response from Mr. Randi, not them.
Just send a letter directly to JREF so that there is no question who is being talked to and who is supposed to respond. Do not address Mr. Randi, and do not CC him.
Just send a letter directly to JREF so that there is no question who is being talked to and who is supposed to respond. Do not address Mr. Randi, and do not CC him.
pavel_do
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Guys you talking like kids.. In short.. You guys splitting hair even more!
Do you think it will make any difference?? So naive.. Well I had to follow Randi letter and address it to Alison?? Volunteering secretary (I am not trying to offence any one)? great.. but I doubt Alison would be much of helps as she does what she told.. Randi told her close my file if i refuse 20 trials.. she done it.. Beside Alison when she got my email and I am sure she got it.. same as other chaps who got forwarded letter from Randi, could simply get in touch with me and say where and to whom I should apply even out of courtesy if there is any in JREF.. Or some one from them could reply to GzuzKryzt's letter with suggestions where I should apply.. NO? I don't make any sense again?? No.. than you will keep splitting hair even if will write to Alison and she will ignore it... than I will have to write to a cleanign lady there??
Do you think it will make any difference?? So naive.. Well I had to follow Randi letter and address it to Alison?? Volunteering secretary (I am not trying to offence any one)? great.. but I doubt Alison would be much of helps as she does what she told.. Randi told her close my file if i refuse 20 trials.. she done it.. Beside Alison when she got my email and I am sure she got it.. same as other chaps who got forwarded letter from Randi, could simply get in touch with me and say where and to whom I should apply even out of courtesy if there is any in JREF.. Or some one from them could reply to GzuzKryzt's letter with suggestions where I should apply.. NO? I don't make any sense again?? No.. than you will keep splitting hair even if will write to Alison and she will ignore it... than I will have to write to a cleanign lady there??
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This is a bizarre criticism. Who exactly is this "JREF" you are referring to? Do we really need to assume that Alison is so dumb that she cannot figure out that forwarding her an e-mail that says "Alison handles these matters" followed by the matter that she is supposed to handle is wholly beyond her ability to comprehend?
Linda
jsfisher
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No, you told them to close your file, and they did.
Why should any of those people reply to you? You sent an email addressed to Randi. Randi replied. If you want a response from someone else, address an email to that someone else.
You aren't all that good at pretending to be the victim. Please stop. Stop assuming you know something you don't know; stop assuming you know how someone will react to an action you refuse to take.
Either write the letter to Alison, or don't, but stop condemning people with your presumed outcomes from hypotheticals.
pavel_do
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