Moderated What's wrong with porn?

[JFrankA]

You are missing the point. It's irrelevant what Jfranka says about those jobs. What would you prove with his personal take on those jobs anyway? Would you prove that nobody in the world likes to do them? No, you wouldn't, because as matter of fact there are lots of people doing those things.

To recapitulate, your claim seems to be about women and porn, specifically whether or not they like to do that job. It's a broad generalization. There are hundreds of women who wouldn't think of working in porn even if they got paid billions of dollars. So what? There are also hundreds of women who would do it for free.

The jobs you listed there, were intentionally selected so that most reasonable people would reply with "No, I wouldn't do that" to all of them. So then you can say "See? My point is made" but your point isn't made even if you find one hundred people in this forum to reply "No" to all of them. Does one hundred sound like a Deterministic Statistical number?

And just for the record, I would never do any of those jobs. I would also never work as the guy who clubs pigs to kill them, but I heard a lot of people work at that. I also heard it takes a certain type of personality to be able to do that.

I would never work as a surgeon cause I faint when I see broken bones. But I heard a lot of people can do that and not faint. Again, job preference clearly seems to be directly related to the unique personality of the individual.

Thank you for saying this better than I could.

 

[Lithrael]

I'd like to interject that there are quite a lot of girls who write and draw porn for no compensation, as a hobby. I'm curious if Southwind is interested in discussing whether there's something wrong with this as well. So far this conversation doesn't seem any deeper than 'sex for pay, that's obvs gross, like eating poop' vs 'I don't think everyone thinks sex for pay is gross like eating poop.'

 

[Orangem]

Woah, woah, woah! Hundreds of women who would do it FOR FREE? I'd be curious to just meet one. I'll speek for myself: I love sexe but I'd never do it all day long! It hurts after a while... even with lub. I don't believe that Southwind17 is trying make a point that working in porn is a BAD job, but it's definitely a controversial job. Yeah, Executioners are "just doing their job" when social instances have decided so, but it doesn't meen we can't question the existence of that job or debate it. Although I believe the sex industry is a must, it's present state is FAR from being OK on many levels!

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Woah, woah, woah! Hundreds of women who would do it FOR FREE?

Yup. Ever been to a freshman party where someone happens to have a camera in handy when the liquor has hit the spot?

Sometimes liquor isn't even necessary.

 

[fuelair]

And if I didn't bring them up, pray tell, then what?:

My error. Note post following the one I am quoting, though.

 

[JFrankA]

Woah, woah, woah! Hundreds of women who would do it FOR FREE? I'd be curious to just meet one. I'll speek for myself: I love sexe but I'd never do it all day long! It hurts after a while... even with lub. I don't believe that Southwind17 is trying make a point that working in porn is a BAD job, but it's definitely a controversial job. Yeah, Executioners are "just doing their job" when social instances have decided so, but it doesn't meen we can't question the existence of that job or debate it. Although I believe the sex industry is a must, it's present state is FAR from being OK on many levels!

That's the point of Southwind17's fallacy. He's basing a generalization on his experiences and his impressions and placing it as fact. He's ignoring that everyone is an individual and that certain factors can make a person choose one preference over another.

I don't know generally whether women would love to be porn stars or not. I know quite a few that would, but that's because I'm in the industry. However, I refuse to say that generally women would like to or they wouldn't and state it as a fact. I want the facts, the data. And yes, the circumstances as to how the question is placed.

To say that something is a general truth because it's your assumption and experience and use it as a basis of say it's a fact, is what I'm disagreeing with Southwind17 now.

 

[JFrankA]

Yup. Ever been to a freshman party where someone happens to have a camera in handy when the liquor has hit the spot?

I have seen it too. In fact, there are quite a few free porn sites that have women who will perform for a camera for free, just for the kick of it, no money involved.

....now notice I am not saying "Generally, most would women would have sex on camera free just for the kicks." Quite a different thing.

 

[Orangem]

Yup. Ever been to a freshman party where someone happens to have a camera in handy when the liquor has hit the spot?

Sometimes liquor isn't even necessary.

Oh, OK. As an occasional thing you mean. Fair enough.

 

[Orangem]

I have seen it too. In fact, there are quite a few free porn sites that have women who will perform for a camera for free, just for the kick of it, no money involved.

....now notice I am not saying "Generally, most would women would have sex on camera free just for the kicks." Quite a different thing.

Actually, you're right! There's a whole lot of women... and men on sites like Youporn who do this with no money involved! Some even do it quite often. My bad.

 

[Southwind17]

Why is that relevant?

I've told you how I felt about women and doing porn. I am making the assumption based on my belief and experiences that most women would love to have sex all day and get paid a lot for doing so. I know I would.

Again, that is just a belief and an assumption based on my experiences. Is it right? Is it a fact? I dunno.

Neither do you.

Fair enough. I sure can't force you to respond. If you can't see the relevance so be it.

 

[Southwind17]

You are missing the point. It's irrelevant what Jfranka says about those jobs. What would you prove with his personal take on those jobs anyway? Would you prove that nobody in the world likes to do them? No, you wouldn't, because as matter of fact there are lots of people doing those things.

To recapitulate, your claim seems to be about women and porn, specifically whether or not they like to do that job.

You've not been paying close attention have you.

The jobs you listed there, were intentionally selected so that most reasonable people would reply with "No, I wouldn't do that" to all of them. So then you can say "See? My point is made" but your point isn't made even if you find one hundred people in this forum to reply "No" to all of them. Does one hundred sound like a Deterministic Statistical number?

You clearly don't see what my point is. See below.

And just for the record, I would never do any of those jobs. I would also never work as the guy who clubs pigs to kill them, but I heard a lot of people work at that. I also heard it takes a certain type of personality to be able to do that.

I would never work as a surgeon cause I faint when I see broken bones. But I heard a lot of people can do that and not faint. Again, job preference clearly seems to be directly related to the unique personality of the individual.

So for you a job is not "just a job". You differentiate between what you're prepared to do and not. JFrankA, however, claims not to differentiate, but when push comes to shove it seems his money and his mouth cannot occupy the same space. That's my point. That's all. So you see, it's you who is missing the point.

 

[Southwind17]

Thank you for saying this better than I could.

Doh! What does that say about you then?!

 

[Southwind17]

I'd like to interject that there are quite a lot of girls who write and draw porn for no compensation, as a hobby. I'm curious if Southwind is interested in discussing whether there's something wrong with this as well. So far this conversation doesn't seem any deeper than 'sex for pay, that's obvs gross, like eating poop' vs 'I don't think everyone thinks sex for pay is gross like eating poop.'

Isn't it funny how easily some people bark up the wrong tree?! For the record - I LOVE porn - can't get enough of it, and I don't mean the marshmallow variety that many people here will only entertain. So, there you have it. Re-read the entire thread if you need to satisfy yourself that that's not a contradiction. I guarantee you'll not find one. Indeed, just re-read the OP question. Would an anti-porn proponent really pose such a question in that way?!

 

[JFrankA]

You've not been paying close attention have you.


You clearly don't see what my point is. See below.


So for you a job is not "just a job". You differentiate between what you're prepared to do and not. JFrankA, however, claims not to differentiate, but when push comes to shove it seems his money and his mouth cannot occupy the same space. That's my point. That's all. So you see, it's you who is missing the point.

I don't know what you want from me. A job is a job is a job. Some people like what they do, some people don't. Some people will do a job that some won't. Some jobs are more preferable with given circumstances and that same job wouldn't be under other circumstances.

To say that generally speaking, women wouldn't want to be porn stars and claim it's a fact is completely biased and based solely upon your values, your ideas, your circumstances, your experiences and your expectations.

I refuse to do that.

Let's put it this way.

I think women WOULD love to be porn stars if:
they are paid well
they work about six hours a day, with lunch and breaks
they have medical benefits
they have fans and security
they have a say in what kind of sex is involved
they have the right to refuse to do a scene or ask to postpone doing a scene
they pick who they work with

That's a fraction of the circumstances which I am coming from.

Now are those the circumstances you had in mind? I'm sure that everyone on this forum has a different view as to the job of a porn star. Some people think they are all drugged out women who have low self esteem trying to feed four kids, while others think they are glamor models who have everything going for them.

Which one do you think? I bet not everyone in the world would agree with you.

I do put my money where my mouth is. But when I do, I make sure I don't put my foot in it either.

 

[Southwind17]

My error. Note post following the one I am quoting, though.

That's right - your error. So now that you've made it, in justification for your asking a question and requesting a response, such justification now being invalidated, I think I'm entitled to expect a response to my question:

And if I didn't bring them up, pray tell, then what?

Sorry buddy - if you call me in the tone that you did and trip up there's no second chance Sunday on my account.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

You've not been paying close attention have you.


You clearly don't see what my point is. See below.


So for you a job is not "just a job". You differentiate between what you're prepared to do and not. JFrankA, however, claims not to differentiate, but when push comes to shove it seems his money and his mouth cannot occupy the same space. That's my point. That's all. So you see, it's you who is missing the point.

Clearly, some jobs are also more than jobs. Some jobs are also a crime (Such as being a hitman). Some jobs are art, or at least considered to be art. However, it is us who make that judgment (Of whether a job is more than a job). To some people, Film is not an art. To some people, being a mechanic is an art.

So the decision of taking or refusing to take a job is still up to the person. It is me who needs to think of it as a crime to refuse it, or as an art to take it (or refuse it, because then again, I may be someone who hates art).

So, again, even if your argument that "a job isn't always a job" is true, it still doesn't account for the true essence of why a person chooses a job; which still comes down to their own individual characteristics. What they like and don't like. What they can tolerate and can't tolerate.

Since you have stated that you're not an anti-porn, then even more than ever I need to know what are you trying to get at?. Because even if we say "Porn Industry", that job has an infinite amount of ramifications, from completely legal, softcore late-cinemax type of porn, to illegal, underground snuff porn or child porn.

You claim you don't have a bias against porn, yet your OP is entitled "What's wrong with porn?", which sounds almost as if you were assuming there's something wrong with it in the first place. If that's not it, then what is your ultimate goal with this thread and what is your essential argument?.

 

[RSLancastr]

I don't think there's anything wrong with seeing what happens between a woman and a man and a man and a horse. It's only natural after all.

Makes one wonder what has jappened to the kittycat in your avatar.

 

[Eric D]

Most women taken from a cross section of society might deplore the idea of being raped. Does that make it a fair comparison?

Most? Might? Try all and would definetly. You're talking about sexual assault here. If it they didn't deplore it, it would not be rape at all.

 

[Southwind17]

That's the point of Southwind17's fallacy. He's basing a generalization on his experiences and his impressions and placing it as fact.

Really? What line of logic leads you to jump to that conclusion?

He's ignoring that everyone is an individual and that certain factors can make a person choose one preference over another.

Really? What line of logic leads you to jump to that conclusion?

I don't know generally whether women would love to be porn stars or not.

If you were to re-word that slightly (but importantly) to mean what I think you intend it to mean, namely: "I don't know whether women, generally, would love to become a porn star or not.", then I can assure you I do, and the answer is "no". If you disagree then you've been spending too much time "in the industry" and not enough in civvy street, so to speak.

I know quite a few that would, but that's because I'm in the industry. However, I refuse to say that generally women would like to or they wouldn't and state it as a fact. I want the facts, the data. And yes, the circumstances as to how the question is placed.

So not "generally", then. I see.

To say that something is a general truth because it's your assumption and experience and use it as a basis of say it's a fact, is what I'm disagreeing with Southwind17 now.

Well let's just agree to disagree then. I've been around long enough to know from experience that most women, generally (and I mean the vast majority), would not choose to become a porn star. Indeed, they deplore the idea.

 

[Eric D]

If you were to re-word that slightly (but importantly) to mean what I think you intend it to mean, namely: "I don't know whether women, generally, would love to become a porn star or not.", then I can assure you I do, and the answer is "no". If you disagree then you've been spending too much time "in the industry" and not enough in civvy street, so to speak.




Well let's just agree to disagree then. I've been around long enough to know from experience that most women, generally (and I mean the vast majority), would not choose to become a porn star. Indeed, they deplore the idea.

So what exactly are you trying to say? The intitial question was "what's wrong with porn" i.e. "is there anything immoral about it?" and your answer so far is that most women wouldn't want to do it. Morality is not a democratic decision.