Another Landlord Worry: Is the Elevator Kosher?

[drkitten]

re: highlighted portion - I'm sorry, I don't understand. The assumptions were first justified, then rejected? If you were going to reject them, why bother to justify them first? (Those are serious questions, I'm not trying to be flippant or a smart***.)

Sorry, confusing phrasing on my part.

The assumptions (that you are as smart and as knowledgeable as God) are not justified.

As in, no Jewish theologian has attempted to justify them.

Not only are they not justified, but they are explicitly rejected.

As in, every Jewish theologian has gone beyond "well, I'm not necessarily saying they're true" to "I'm saying they're actively false."

 

[drkitten]

I beg your pardon?:

Where do you think "Reform" Judaism came from?

Reform Judaism is exactly that set of orthodox judaism that have already taken that path.

 

[zooterkin]

And hasn't that worked out well for the Jews? God doesn't seem to understand human nature very well. "Guys, I want you to adopt practices that will make you stand out from everyone else. I'm sure this will in no way backfire and cause you to be viewed with suspicion by other groups."

On the other hand, the Jews are still here as a recognisable culture; how many other groups have survived with customs and beliefs intact despite being dispersed so widely?

 

[Southwind17]

Where do you think "Reform" Judaism came from?

Reform Judaism is exactly that set of orthodox judaism that have already taken that path.

And these, to whom I, and you, refer?:

The Orthodox Jews are the equivalent of the white-shoe bankers and lawyers who still insist on formal business attire ...

Get it?

 

[Southwind17]

On the other hand, the Jews are still here as a recognisable culture; how many other groups have survived with customs and beliefs intact despite being dispersed so widely?

You are kidding, right?

 

[Beerina]

Since the 1960s, when high-rise apartment buildings became ubiquitous, the Orthodox rabbinate has made such elevators one of the few exceptions to Talmudic rules prohibiting 39 categories of activity on the Sabbath, including manual labor or the use of electrical devices. Like flipping a light switch, pressing an elevator button is considered the use of an electrical device.

...

Though many observant Jews have always considered Shabbos elevators illegitimate, a vast majority of them, especially the elderly or infirm, and large Orthodox families living with small children on upper floors of high-rise buildings, have used the elevators since about 1964, when prominent rabbinical scholars reached a consensus published in religious journal

"I have yet to see any good reason to suppose that theology...is a subject at all." - Richard Dawkins


What part of that is hard to understand?

 

[Toke]

Interesting. How've you fared with those you have?!

We have a state church, some Lutheran/protestant thing.
I was brought up without prayer but going to church every x-mas.

After considering the Nordic gods I settled on atheist.

 

[drkitten]

"I have yet to see any good reason to suppose that theology...is a subject at all." - Richard Dawkins


What part of that is hard to understand?

The part where Richard Dawkins' self-described ignorance is supposed to magically turn into an argument.

I mean,... come on! He's spent enough time talking about the self-important arguments from ignorance made against evolution. "I can't see how such-and-such could have evolved, therefore it couldn't." When a theology professor admits to knowing nothing about biology, we're supposed to ignore his opinions on biology.

But when a biology professor admits to knowing nothing about theology, we're supposed to consider that a legitimate criticism?

 

[Toke]

I think the "subject" refers to a lack of a god.

ETA: Apart from the lack of a god there are plenty of substance to theological studies.
It just seems a bit pointless from the outside.

 

[Meadmaker]

You could be argued to be mentally imbalanced because you equate universally accepted and still widely expected business customs to irrational religious rituals,

Universally accepted? Huh? They are cultural artifacts. The Orthodox Jew's cultural artifacts are just specific to a smaller culture, but there's nothing "rational" about neckties. It's something you do because your culture demands it. Just like taking the stairs on Saturday.

Do you see orthodox Jewish observence and such going the same way any time soon?

They wouldn't be orthodox then, would they? However, as with other religions in the west, an awful lot of children decide not to follow their parents' religion, and if they do, they often follow it in a less strict form.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Sorry, confusing phrasing on my part.

The assumptions (that you are as smart and as knowledgeable as God) are not justified.

As in, no Jewish theologian has attempted to justify them.

Not only are they not justified, but they are explicitly rejected.

As in, every Jewish theologian has gone beyond "well, I'm not necessarily saying they're true" to "I'm saying they're actively false."

If Jewish theologians say such beliefs are actively false, then why do they continue to follow them? What "they" you referring to in the sentences, "I'm not necessarily saying they're true" and "I'm saying they're actively false."

There's something here that either I'm missing or you are not saying.

 

[drkitten]

If Jewish theologians say such beliefs are actively false, then why do they continue to follow them? What "they" you referring to in the sentences, "I'm not necessarily saying they're true" and "I'm saying they're actively false."

There's something here that either I'm missing or you are not saying.

Southwind1 is taking the position that if he doesn't understand the significance of one of God's rules, then the rule must be invalid. He is explicitly rejecting the possibility that God might have a reason for His rule of which he (Southwind1) is unaware.

This is equivalent to assuming both 1) that he knows everything that God knows about the way the universe works and assuming that 2) he is as capable as God is of seeing the consequences of actions.

These assumptions cannot be proved false.

Jewish theologians, however, reject both of the assumptions listed above. In particular, they reject the idea that Southwind1 (or any human) can be as knowledgeable as God, and they also reject the possibility that Southwind1 (or any human) is as capable at reasoning and seeing consequences as God is.

And if the assumptions cannot be proven to be false, neither can they be proven to be true. That is, Southwind1 cannot prove the rabbis to be incorrect, nor can the rabbis prove Southwind1 to be incorrect.

My personal sympathies are with the rabbis. While I can't prove directly that Southwind1 is "not as smart as God" (because I can't prove that God exists), I can prove that Southwind1 is not infinitely knowledgeable. I can also prove that Southwind1 is not a perfect reasoner. Which in turn proves to my satisfaction that Southwind1 is not capable of perfectly judging whether or not a proposed rule is reasonable and/or should be followed.

The rabbis would therefore reject out of hand Southwind1's attempt to substitute his own decisions for God's.

 

[Southwind17]

I mean,... come on! He's spent enough time talking about the self-important arguments from ignorance made against evolution. "I can't see how such-and-such could have evolved, therefore it couldn't." When a theology professor admits to knowing nothing about biology, we're supposed to ignore his opinions on biology.

But when a biology professor admits to knowing nothing about theology, we're supposed to consider that a legitimate criticism?

You see - here again - mental imbalance. I'm with the biologist every time.

Universally accepted? Huh? They are cultural artifacts.

Or simply long-standing "fashion"?

The Orthodox Jew's cultural artifacts are just specific to a smaller culture, but there's nothing "rational" about neckties.

You miss the point, though. There's nothing "irrational" about them either. What's the driver for most people wearing a neck tie, as opposed to, say, wearing cuff links or a brooch? Indeed, I have no doubt that for many people, wearing a neck tie is simply habitual, and if they both stopped to question and had the will power to kick the habit (comfort zone is a very "safe" place) they'd ditch the neck tie tomorrow.

It's something you do because your culture demands it. Just like taking the stairs on Saturday.

I disagree. One is free to choose whether to wear a neck tie or not (I sometimes do and sometimes don't) without fear of scorn or ostracism. Admittedly, one's employer might have a dress code that requires the wearing of neck ties, but that's usually driven by Management's desire for visible outward "professionalism". One is always free to vote with one's feet, though.

They wouldn't be orthodox then, would they? However, as with other religions in the west, an awful lot of children decide not to follow their parents' religion, and if they do, they often follow it in a less strict form.

So how long before you expect to see the kippah relegated to the ranks of the bowler hat?!

Southwind1 is taking the position that if he doesn't understand the significance of one of God's rules, then the rule must be invalid. He is explicitly rejecting the possibility that God might have a reason for His rule of which he (Southwind1) is unaware.

Not quite. Putting aside the possibility that you're begging the question, my position is that if I understand the insignificance, by which I mean "silliness", to be polite, of a religious ritual, then it's silly to observe that ritual. Of course, only a mentally balanced person would think like this.

This is equivalent to assuming both 1) that he knows everything that God knows about the way the universe works and assuming that 2) he is as capable as God is of seeing the consequences of actions.

These assumptions cannot be proved false.

Jewish theologians, however, reject both of the assumptions listed above. In particular, they reject the idea that Southwind1 (or any human) can be as knowledgeable as God, and they also reject the possibility that Southwind1 (or any human) is as capable at reasoning and seeing consequences as God is.

And if the assumptions cannot be proven to be false, neither can they be proven to be true. That is, Southwind1 cannot prove the rabbis to be incorrect, nor can the rabbis prove Southwind1 to be incorrect.

My personal sympathies are with the rabbis. While I can't prove directly that Southwind1 is "not as smart as God" (because I can't prove that God exists), I can prove that Southwind1 is not infinitely knowledgeable. I can also prove that Southwind1 is not a perfect reasoner. Which in turn proves to my satisfaction that Southwind1 is not capable of perfectly judging whether or not a proposed rule is reasonable and/or should be followed.

The rabbis would therefore reject out of hand Southwind1's attempt to substitute his own decisions for God's.

And this neatly, albeit slightly long-windedly, explains why I'm glad I'm not an orthodox Jew.

 

[bigjelmapro]

I'm not sure IQ is a measure of all of one's mental faculties, is it? Genuine question - you might well be right.

But apparently mental stability is.

Good point, and I'm inclined to agree with you. To this mentally balanced mortal, though, I find it odd that the observance of such bizarre laws doesn't lead such observer to apply some degree of critical analysis, if not logic, to his behaviour and at least question the sense in it, and hence whether the underlying driver actually has any real credibility. I guess religious blindness simply takes precedence.

Not too difficult to understand the concept of a day of rest and how this extends to modern life. Merely an extension. Whether you agree with the concept of a day of rest or not, doesn't mean its bizarre behavior.

...that weekends are weekends simply because they always have been and, for me, have no religious conotation (not to mention that they seem to make perfect physiological sense - depending on how hard one works!)

So weekends aren't religious for you. That's fine. The origins of a day or rest which has evolved into what we all call a weekend does have its religious roots, regardless if you want to accept it or not. I know of laws in the US that protects employees from working on what is the Christian day of rest, Sunday. Or is it not? These laws don't exist?

 

[Southwind17]

But apparently mental stability is.

Just as well I'm in the top one percentile then. However, I think you're wrong, and should welcome a citation.

Not too difficult to understand the concept of a day of rest and how this extends to modern life. Merely an extension. Whether you agree with the concept of a day of rest or not, doesn't mean its bizarre behavior.

Couldn't agree more - never suggested it is.

So weekends aren't religious for you. That's fine. The origins of a day or rest which has evolved into what we all call a weekend does have its religious roots, regardless if you want to accept it or not.

I have no problem with the roots. It's what it means today that matters to me.

I know of laws in the US that protects employees from working on what is the Christian day of rest, Sunday. Or is it not? These laws don't exist?

Sunday is just another Saturday so far as I'm concerned (except that right now it's Friday and Saturday for me, and Thursday and Friday for certain friends and neighbours, being in various parts of the Middle East), although the "routine" can differ slightly on each day (which never involves any religious silliness, mind!). I'm not familiar with your laws. If they refer to the "Christian day of rest", as you imply, I'm OK with that - a rose by any other name. Indeed, I'd happily go along with legally coining Friday the "Jewish day of rest" and Monday the "Muslim day of rest", if that meant I was forced to stay at home and get paid for the privilege!

 

[Elizabeth I]

Southwind1 is taking the position that if he doesn't understand the significance of one of God's rules, then the rule must be invalid. He is explicitly rejecting the possibility that God might have a reason for His rule of which he (Southwind1) is unaware.

This is equivalent to assuming both 1) that he knows everything that God knows about the way the universe works and assuming that 2) he is as capable as God is of seeing the consequences of actions.

These assumptions cannot be proved false.

Jewish theologians, however, reject both of the assumptions listed above. In particular, they reject the idea that Southwind1 (or any human) can be as knowledgeable as God, and they also reject the possibility that Southwind1 (or any human) is as capable at reasoning and seeing consequences as God is.

And if the assumptions cannot be proven to be false, neither can they be proven to be true. That is, Southwind1 cannot prove the rabbis to be incorrect, nor can the rabbis prove Southwind1 to be incorrect.

My personal sympathies are with the rabbis. While I can't prove directly that Southwind1 is "not as smart as God" (because I can't prove that God exists), I can prove that Southwind1 is not infinitely knowledgeable. I can also prove that Southwind1 is not a perfect reasoner. Which in turn proves to my satisfaction that Southwind1 is not capable of perfectly judging whether or not a proposed rule is reasonable and/or should be followed.

The rabbis would therefore reject out of hand Southwind1's attempt to substitute his own decisions for God's.

OK, thank you. <<whew!>>

 

[Meadmaker]

There's nothing "irrational" about them either.

They are inconvenient, uncomfortable, and a needless expense. They force you to button your top button of your shirt in such a way that your neck is constricted. They might drag in your soup. They don't keep you warm. They are an abomination on good sense.

Furthermore, that is exactly why they are worn. It is proof that you thought this meeting was sufficiently significant that you were willing to endure some discomfort.

Moreover, look at neckties from the opposite angle. My software will not work any better if I demonstrate it while wearing a necktie. However, I will sell more software if I wear a necktie. This is utterly irrational on the part of the customer, and yet everyone knows that this is what is expected on the part of a participant in our culture.

I disagree. One is free to choose whether to wear a neck tie or not (I sometimes do and sometimes don't) without fear of scorn or ostracism. Admittedly, one's employer might have a dress code that requires the wearing of neck ties, but that's usually driven by Management's desire for visible outward "professionalism". One is always free to vote with one's feet, though.

This is preposterous. There are indeed people who heap scorn upon and ostracize non necktie wearers. As you note, you don't have to associate with those people, but there might be financial discomfort if you make that choice. The observant Jew is, likewise, free to vote with his feet. He chooses not to do so.

You might think that the analogy is bad, because the observant Jew is under some sort of delusion that God will be angry with him if he pushes that elevator button. That's not really the case. Maybe kind of sort of a little bit, but not really. That's a projection from Christian teaching, I think.

Until I married a Jewish woman and began participating in Jewish ritual and observance, I assumed that Christianity and Judaism had a lot in common. In the "Judeo-Christian" tradition, there was a basic sense of morality, but Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah, episode I. Now I know differently. Judaism has more in common with Buddhism than it has with Christianity. At least, that's my experience of both of them.

 

[Southwind17]

They are inconvenient, uncomfortable, and a needless expense. They force you to button your top button of your shirt in such a way that your neck is constricted. They might drag in your soup. They don't keep you warm. They are an abomination on good sense.

Jeez - I never realized somebody could become so negatively emotional about a simple ubiquitous fashion accessory. Thank goodness the mink version got phased out! I'll refrain from asking you how you feel about piercings and tattoos for fear of precipitating a coronary!

Furthermore, that is exactly why they are worn. It is proof that you thought this meeting was sufficiently significant that you were willing to endure some discomfort.

Please tell me you're trolling. You're seriously claiming that wearing a neck tie is tantamount to self-flagellation. You're more mentally imbalanced than I first thought!

Moreover, look at neckties from the opposite angle. My software will not work any better if I demonstrate it while wearing a necktie. However, I will sell more software if I wear a necktie. This is utterly irrational on the part of the customer, and yet everyone knows that this is what is expected on the part of a participant in our culture.

Clutching at straws now, me thinks. The literary length some people will go to to justify their irrationality to themselves.

This is preposterous. There are indeed people who heap scorn upon and ostracize non necktie wearers. As you note, you don't have to associate with those people, but there might be financial discomfort if you make that choice. The observant Jew is, likewise, free to vote with his feet. He chooses not to do so.

You might think that the analogy is bad ...

... because the observant Jew is under some sort of delusion that God will be angry with him if he pushes that elevator button.

To be clear, I'm not bothered whether it's fear of God or something else.

That's not really the case. Maybe kind of sort of a little bit, but not really.

Go on - admit it - you're teetering aren't you?!

Until I married a Jewish woman and began participating in Jewish ritual ...

She must be some special lady!

 

[AvalonXQ]

the Christian day of rest, Sunday

More accurately from a Biblical perspective, it's the Christian day of worship.

 

[Meadmaker]

Jeez - I never realized somebody could become so negatively emotional about a simple ubiquitous fashion accessory.

I never thought anyone could feel so strongly about someone taking the stairs on Saturday.

She must be some special lady!

Well, yes, but not enough to go all Orthodox about it. We're ultra-Reform. We light candles on Friday night, if we remember.

I actually wore a kippah today, but only because it was parent teacher conferences at the kid's (Jewish) school. I try to remember to put one on when I go there. You may not believe it, but they do a great job of teaching critical thinking there.