Obama and the Gay Military...

[Yoink]

My wife and I wept; thank you.

That video should be deployed by every campaign working for gay marriage and the repeal of DADT and DOMA throughout the nation, don't you think?

 

[Undesired Walrus]

My apologies if this video has already been linked in this thread, but it seems relevant. An 86 year old veteran of WWII talks about the gay-marriage fight in Maine. If you can watch this without tearing up a little, you're made of sterner stuff than me.

Have you seen this Quad? This man fought against bigotry and oppression, and for freedom and dignity. How about honoring him by doing away with such trivial concerns?

 

[Quad4_72]

The problem with your argument is that it takes us nowhere. You seem to be saying that because it's easier for gay people to "pass" as straight than it is for a black person to "pass" as white, it's therefore o.k. to discriminate against gays. That's just nuts.

It's pretty damn easy for Roman Catholics to hide the fact that they're Catholics. Does that mean it would be acceptable to ban Catholics from serving in the military? After all, some Protestants are probably not happy serving alongside Catholics, so it could be bad for troop cohesion. And it's not like you're "born" Catholic--it's pretty obviously a choice.

So...is it acceptable to discriminate against Catholics?

I never made the argument you are suggesting. I said that the two should not be compared because they are completely different.

 

[Quad4_72]

Have you seen this Quad? This man fought against bigotry and oppression, and for freedom and dignity. How about honoring him by doing away with such trivial concerns?

I watched it. My views are still the same. I am also willing to bet that fighting for gay rights was probably the last thing on almost every soldiers mind during that war. I will also tell you that most of them probably shared the same views as myself. How do I know this? Because I have yet to meet a male soldier in today's Army that wants gays to be a part of the Army. Now I am not saying that there aren't other soldiers out there who disagree with me, but from my experience I have not met any that want gays in. I would also like to point out that todays generation is much more accepting of homosexuals than those back in WWII.

 

[Yoink]

I never made the argument you are suggesting. I said that the two should not be compared because they are completely different.

But the comparison to religious discrimination shows that they're not "completely different," doesn't it?

Many Jews in Nazi germany could easily "pass" as non-Jewish (hence the need for the yellow stars). Would it be outrageous to compare the discrimination faced by Jews in Nazi germany to the treatment of black people in the US under slavery and Jim Crow?

 

[Quad4_72]

Have you seen this Quad? This man fought against bigotry and oppression, and for freedom and dignity. How about honoring him by doing away with such trivial concerns?

Again, I noticed that you chose not to respond to this point:
"Going with the shower situation, it felt to me like the gay guy was taking advantage of a situation to see a bunch of naked men and have sexual fantasies about it. Ask a group of women how they would feel if a guy was staring into their shower room and getting an erection. I can bet you they would feel about the same way I did."

Do you agree or disagree with what I said here?

 

[Yoink]

Again, I noticed that you chose not to respond to this point:
"Going with the shower situation, it felt to me like the gay guy was taking advantage of a situation to see a bunch of naked men and have sexual fantasies about it. Ask a group of women how they would feel if a guy was staring into their shower room and getting an erection. I can bet you they would feel about the same way I did."

Do you agree or disagree with what I said here?

Just put the shovel down, man.

 

[Quad4_72]

But the comparison to religious discrimination shows that they're not "completely different," doesn't it?

Many Jews in Nazi germany could easily "pass" as non-Jewish (hence the need for the yellow stars). Would it be outrageous to compare the discrimination faced by Jews in Nazi germany to the treatment of black people in the US under slavery and Jim Crow?

I'm really not too sure what point you are trying to make here. Jews were required to wear stars and have paperwork to identify themselves as Jewish. That physical identification is how they were discriminated against, which is the point I am making. Some tried to blend in and succeeded. Others could not because if they were stopped and did not have the proper paperwork to identify themselves as non jews, they were taken away. Again, that comes back to the physical identification.

Here in the United States (Which is what we are discussing), gays are not required or never have been required to have any sort of paper work or have any physically identifying features to say that they are gay. At any point they can act as straight as they want to. Then with black people and women, right from birth they are given their permanent identification. They don't have any choice but to stand out as a minority or the opposite sex, hence there being a significant difference in the struggles they have experienced. Hope that clears things up for you.

 

[Quad4_72]

Just put the shovel down, man.

Still waiting for a response. Can't really dig a hole during an internet discussion if you cannot even get a response out of the other poster. Fail.

 

[quarky]

Homosexuality is gradually becoming 'normal' in society's mind. Other forms of sexuality, including asexuality, will soon be brought into the open, and the debate will continue anew.

Hopefully, we'll have the decency to draw the moral line at foot-fetishism. If I was a soldier, and ever caught glimpse of another soldier rubbing a shoe against his erect penis, I swear, I'd lose the will to keep the world safe from communism or even terrorism.

 

[linusrichard]

That video should be deployed by every campaign working for gay marriage and the repeal of DADT and DOMA throughout the nation, don't you think?

I do.

Just put the shovel down, man.

Heh. I missed the part where he explained how he knew the guy even had an erection. I know if I were showering with some guys, and one of them got an erection, I wouldn't even know about it, because if I were showering with some guys, I wouldn't be scoping out their wieners. That may just be me, I guess.

 

[funk de fino]

Elaborate. Give me a rebuttal to my assertion that it is easier to cover up being gay than it is to cover up being black or being a woman.

All gays dress like "homos" and act feminine eh? Caveman stuff.

The ones that I found out at a later time were gay, that I served with, were the last ones you would have thought were gay.

Your boners in the shower is just primary school stuff. If someone got a boner looking at my hairy arse (second hairiest in NATO at the time) I would pee my pants and rip the crap out of him. I am not bigotted or insecure. You know what they say about those that seem to have the biggest problem with it eh?

 

[quarky]

All gays dress like "homos" and act feminine eh? Caveman stuff.

The ones that I found out at a later time were gay, that I served with, were the last ones you would have thought were gay.

Your boners in the shower is just primary school stuff. If someone got a boner looking at my hairy arse (second hairiest in NATO at the time) I would pee my pants and rip the crap out of him. I am not bigotted or insecure. You know what they say about those that seem to have the biggest problem with it eh?

we can nearly define gayness as "the last one's I thought were gay".

Whomever you assume is totally not gay?.....That's who's gay.
The guys you assumed were gay, because they seemed so gay, are the totally not gay ones, and you'd do well not to leave them alone with your wife for long.

I'm close to understanding what is gay, but I'm scared to find out that I'm gay, because of being not gay and wanting to have sex with women and stuff, and not with guys, even a little bit.

My hormones are waning, and someone could probably convince me that I'm attracted to alpacas, which I am, but in a sexual way, not so far.

 

[yodaluver28]

Yes, I do disagree. Like I said, you can compare it to a woman having a man she doesnt know stare at her while she is showering. If she were to feel uncomfortable about that, would you call her a sissy as well? Here is the point I made and you dodged:
"Going with the shower situation, it felt to me like the gay guy was taking advantage of a situation to see a bunch of naked men and have sexual fantasies about it. Ask a group of women how they would feel if a guy was staring into their shower room and getting an erection. I can bet you they would feel about the same way I did."

This isn't the situation you described though. In your original post you said that the guy that you presumed to be gay was in a corner facing away from everyone when you saw his erection, not staring at you or anyone else.

As a woman, if I were using a co-ed communal shower (and I have) and there was a guy with an erection off in a corner, facing away from me and everyone else and minding his own business, I wouldn't give a damn. Heck, I probably wouldn't even know since I'd be busy washing up and leaving, not scoping out every guy's privates.

 

[Dragoonster]

#3 Comfort. Let me ask you something. There are showers where I work. They are not co-ed. Shouldn't they be? Would it be alright to demand that women shower with men? That should be fair, right? That would be the right thing to do in a more prefect and fair world. I think most people would be perfectly OK with it. Oh sure, there might be a few cases where some crazy guy would attack a woman. But then, the law would come into play and deal with those rare situations. But, in reality, women would never allow for men to join them in communal showers. They would feel uncomfortable about the uncontrollable gazing eyes of men. It is exactly the same if you have to shower with a gay guy. In boot camp we all shower in the same room. We did that every day. Even with sensitivity training and instructiion for all the 80 guys in the company to be open-minded and accepting, no straight guy would ever feel 100% comfortable. And Generals have much too much to worry about and think about. If there is any slight addition to the equation, it is not worth it.

You've already showered with gays. That's the problem with most if not all of your arguments--gays are serving in the military and have for centuries.

Not sure how this discussion got to this point. I never made any statements about how soldiers should be kicked out for getting an erection in the shower. My anecdote was from college and I was using it as reasoning for why a straight man would be uncomfortable showering with a gay man. Most straight guys aren't cool with gay guys checking them out while they are naked. I compared this to a straight guy checking out a woman while she was naked and there was nothing she could do about it.

Straight soldiers already shower with gay soldiers. If DADT were repealed and the gay soldiers started catcalling or stroking during shower-time, they'd be reprimanded for sexual harrasement. Nothing else would change.

 

[ponderingturtle]

What's your definition of "gender"? Now I know that for some people "gender" is a fluid concept (it's a cultural construct!) and people can pick and choose their gender along a 24 axis continuum based on their mood, what they ate for breakfast, and last night's hockey scores. But for me, gender is, while not entirely binary, pretty straitforward for most people with standard XX or XY genotypes.

Ah people confusing sex an gender. Gender orriginates from describing language, and many laguages have more genders than male and female.

So why in say french do so many objects have gender, how do you know if the car is really male or female?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, I do disagree. Like I said, you can compare it to a woman having a man she doesnt know stare at her while she is showering. If she were to feel uncomfortable about that, would you call her a sissy as well? Here is the point I made and you dodged:

See you are moving the goal post. Staring vs simply being there is a rather significant difference. It would seem likely that you stare at women sexualy at any opportunity you get.

I never once stated I would be fine with them being discriminated against if they could conceal their physical appearance. You made this up. I was merely stating that women and black people have struggled much more than gays because it is pretty damn hard to cover up if you are a black person or a woman. If you are gay, all you have to do is stop acting feminine.

And stop having any sexual relations of any kind, and never talk about your sexual relations and never talk about your love life and...

No it seems that it is a bit more than being butch enough for the army.

 

[Quad4_72]

This isn't the situation you described though. In your original post you said that the guy that you presumed to be gay was in a corner facing away from everyone when you saw his erection, not staring at you or anyone else.

As a woman, if I were using a co-ed communal shower (and I have) and there was a guy with an erection off in a corner, facing away from me and everyone else and minding his own business, I wouldn't give a damn. Heck, I probably wouldn't even know since I'd be busy washing up and leaving, not scoping out every guy's privates.

I see I left out part of the story. He would look over his should occasionally at various individuals in the shower.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I see I left out part of the story. He would look over his should occasionally at various individuals in the shower.

How long were you in the shower after he moved to the corner? I mean, if you were that disturbed by it...wouldn't you exit the communal shower rather quickly?

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Again, I noticed that you chose not to respond to this point:
"Going with the shower situation, it felt to me like the gay guy was taking advantage of a situation to see a bunch of naked men and have sexual fantasies about it. Ask a group of women how they would feel if a guy was staring into their shower room and getting an erection. I can bet you they would feel about the same way I did."

Do you agree or disagree with what I said here?

I didn't reply as I hoped you would realise how poor this argument is. Men have been showering with gay men for centuries, not women.