UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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This seems an awful lot like discussing how homeopathic remedies work.
 
IXP said:
1. All hypostheses are equal.
2. "Debebian child slave vessel" and "School bus" are hypotheses for what RoboTimbo saw.
3. "Debebian child slave vessel" and "School bus" are equal hypotheses.

Which line do you dispute?

IXP
Click to expand...

I demand an answer to this as well. The irony of Rramjet's present debating position burns like the exhausts of a thousand Denebian child slave vessels.
 
IXP said:
1. All hypostheses are equal.
2. "Debebian child slave vessel" and "School bus" are hypotheses for what RoboTimbo saw.
3. "Debebian child slave vessel" and "School bus" are equal hypotheses.

Which line do you dispute?

IXP
Click to expand...

lines 2 and 3, in the language of the Galactic Empire the pronounciation is Denebian, and has been since the planet Deneb (formerly Debeb) was conquered and taken over by the Sonoloytainmmisolian confederacy in 234:19:12
for IXP to have missed this is akin to the "Zimbabwean Ambassador" being introduced to delegates at the United Nations as "the representative to Rhodesia" and is a huge breach of intergalactic diplomatic law
i.e. a huge insult, I have informed the galactic federal police. they will be sending a spacecraft cleverly disguised as a blimp to pick you up shortly
...........
.......
....
No, I'm not kidding
 
Marduk said:
lines 2 and 3, in the language of the Galactic Empire the pronounciation is Denebian, and has been since the planet Deneb (formerly Debeb) was conquered and taken over by the Sonoloytainmmisolian confederacy in 234:19:12
for IXP to have missed this is akin to the "Zimbabwean Ambassador" being introduced to delegates at the United Nations as "the representative to Rhodesia" and is a huge breach of intergalactic diplomatic law
i.e. a huge insult, I have informed the galactic federal police. they will be sending a spacecraft cleverly disguised as a blimp to pick you up shortly
...........
.......
....
No, I'm not kidding
Click to expand...

Watch out when next you cross the street Marduk. I see a large yellow school bus heading in your direction. :scared:

At least I think it is a school bus . . . but it may be a circular blimp. :duck:
 
Rramjet said:
...However, YOU have NOT answered a critical question of mine
Click to expand...
I have repeatedly answered this question. My first post was the actual quote from the document and my last had the link to the document.
- which goes to the very heart of the issue. I have posted compelling evidence, from the Navy historians themselves - that state quite cleraly the dates and places and even number of blimps that operated on the West Coast. You say "Oh but NEW squadrons were created".

If NEW squadrons WERE created then you should be able to point to exactly WHERE they were based and what dates they occupied those bases and how many blimps and of what kind, etc.
Click to expand...
The linked PDF states just that - your continuing to ignore that is not my concern.
Can you do that? WILL you do that?
Click to expand...
Done and done, repeatedly, that you deny the existence of the document and quoted statement from same is no longer my concern.
Of course you will not, you will merely re-post assertions I have already answered (PLEASE look at my answers to your assertions in my previous post. It really was quite a detailed and comprehensive reply to your assertions).
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I suggest you look up irony in the dictionary, then reread the statement regarding post-war blimp squadrons.
During WW II, lighter-than-air (LTA) craft
were key components in the war against
the German U-boat, flying critical convoy
escort and antisubmarine warfare (ASW) patrol
missions. After war’s end, blimps continued to
serve in ASW and other roles, and in 1949 eight
new reserve LTA patrol squadrons (ZP) were
established. ZP-651 was based at NAS Akron,
Ohio; ZPs 751, 752 and 753 at NAS Lakehurst,
N.J.; ZP-871 at NAS Oakland, Calif.; ZP-911 at
NAS Squantum, Mass.; and ZPs 951 and 952 at
MCAF Santa Ana, Calif. These reserve ZP
squadrons were even more unusual than their
lighter-than-air brethren, as revealed by a closer​
look at ZP-911.
Click to expand...
The above from Naval History and HeritageCommand site, "The Naval History & Heritage Command is the official history program of the Department of the Navy".
Here's a wiki link that describes the United States Navy Reserve and one to the United States Navy.

Now.

During the wars, the LTA fleet were run by the Navy.
After the 2nd WW these Navy squadrons were deestablished.

THEN

After the 2nd WW, new LTA squadrons formed and run by the Navy Reserve.
Source as quoted is from the Navy's own History and Heritage Command.

Note the chronology. Fleet ran LTA during the war, Reserve ran LTA post-war.

The references YOU are using relate to the "regular" Navy squadrons that were deestablished after WWII. We have no argument over this as this is a fact.

What you seem to wish to ignore is the fact that LTA squadrons were formed in 1949 for the Navy Reserve and three of the 8 operated along the west coast of the US until the 60s. ETA: From the Naval Air Reserve Force site,
"The mission of Naval Air Reserve Force is to support the Fleet with ready and fully integrated units, equipment and individuals throughout the full range of operations from peace to war".

The fact that the Navy Reserve LTA squadrons used the same bases (i.e. Santa Ana, Ca) as the "regular" Navy LTA squadrons should not come as a surprise. What you seem to want to stick to is that "In 1947 Santa Ana etal were disestablished and that was the last blimps flown".

That statement is only true for the war time Navy squadrons and has no bearing on the existence of LTA aircraft and flights undertaken by the Navy Reserve squadrons from 1949 to the 60s.

Squadron Designations for the relevant period.
ZP Airship Patrol Squadron 1942-1961
ZP Blimp Squadron 1942-1961
ZP Airship Patrol Squadron (All-Weather
Anti-Submarine) or Airship Squadron
or LTA Patrol Squadron 1942-1961
ZX Airship Operational Development
Squadron or Airship Development Squadron 1950-1957



ETA: Photographic proof that LTA squadrons were still operating in California in 1950.
"The following photos were submitted by another Bluffs' neighbor, Van Jacobsen, when he learned that we were going to publish David Wallace's blimp memoir. According to Van: "Here are some pictures I took with a 4x5 speed graphic when I was at Tustin in the Navel Reserve during the 50s.

"It was a great experience and a lot of fun. We loved flying over football games and looking at the girls up and down the beaches. We also had practice over coastal waters and islands chasing and bombing submarines with unarmed bombs."
"

Note the relatively small id letters and the size of the fins on the blimp. Detail easily missed at a distance, IMO.
 
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Gord_in_Toronto said:
Watch out when next you cross the street Marduk. I see a large yellow school bus heading in your direction. :scared:

At least I think it is a school bus . . . but it may be a circular blimp. :duck:
Click to expand...

I live in the UK

see list
1. there are no school buses, parents are responsible for making their children attend class
2. there are no school buses
3. do I need to go into the colour of non existent school buses

so if I see a yellow school bus bearing down on me, the odds are its going to be a Denebian slave vessel

but thanks for the warning
:p
 
TjW said:
Okay.

One hypothesis is that the described object is a school bus. Another is that it is a Denebian child slave vessel.
l
According to you, both of these hypotheses are equal, and should be assigned equal weight. If you believe these hypotheses to be equal, then you are as likely to believe that it is a Denebian child slave vessel as to believe that it is a school bus.

If, however, you do NOT believe that it is as likely to be a Denebian child slave vessel as it is to be a school bus, then you are not holding both hypotheses to be equal, and it is unreasonable to hold other people to a standard which you do not follow yourself.
Click to expand...

But, this is circular reasoning!

So, How do you get from These hypotheses are equal to

you are as likely to believe that it is a Denebian child slave vessel as to believe that it is a school bus.

You cannot logically do it. Can you! You people would argue black was white...no wait...you do! Illogical claptrap.
 
IXP said:
1. All hypostheses are equal.
2. "Debebian child slave vessel" and "School bus" are hypotheses for what RoboTimbo saw.
3. "Debebian child slave vessel" and "School bus" are equal hypotheses.

Which line do you dispute?

IXP
Click to expand...

This is idiotic.

I asked if anyone could explain how RoboTimbo got from

All hypotheses are equal

to You are likley to believe a debebian slave vessel is a school bus.

Can ANYONE do it? No. I did not think so.
 
EHocking said:
I have repeatedly answered this question. My first post was the actual quote from the document and my last had the link to the document.The linked PDF states just that - your continuing to ignore that is not my concern.Done and done, repeatedly, that you deny the existence of the document and quoted statement from same is no longer my concern.
I suggest you look up irony in the dictionary, then reread the statement regarding post-war blimp squadrons.

The above from Naval History and HeritageCommand site, "The Naval History & Heritage Command is the official history program of the Department of the Navy".
Here's a wiki link that describes the United States Navy Reserve and one to the United States Navy.

Now.

During the wars, the LTA fleet were run by the Navy.
After the 2nd WW these Navy squadrons were deestablished.

THEN

After the 2nd WW, new LTA squadrons formed and run by the Navy Reserve.
Source as quoted is from the Navy's own History and Heritage Command.

Note the chronology. Fleet ran LTA during the war, Reserve ran LTA post-war.

The references YOU are using relate to the "regular" Navy squadrons that were deestablished after WWII. We have no argument over this as this is a fact.

What you seem to wish to ignore is the fact that LTA squadrons were formed in 1949 for the Navy Reserve and three of the 8 operated along the west coast of the US until the 60s. ETA: From the Naval Air Reserve Force site,
"The mission of Naval Air Reserve Force is to support the Fleet with ready and fully integrated units, equipment and individuals throughout the full range of operations from peace to war".

The fact that the Navy Reserve LTA squadrons used the same bases (i.e. Santa Ana, Ca) as the "regular" Navy LTA squadrons should not come as a surprise. What you seem to want to stick to is that "In 1947 Santa Ana etal were disestablished and that was the last blimps flown".

That statement is only true for the war time Navy squadrons and has no bearing on the existence of LTA aircraft and flights undertaken by the Navy Reserve squadrons from 1949 to the 60s.
Click to expand...

But the pages at the links you supply have nothing to do with blimps at all (let alone the question of when and where)!

Then you merely repeat your original assertions to which I can see I will have to re-post the refutations:

The reduction in LTA following the war left ZP-12 at NAS Lakehurst and ZP-31 at NAS Santa Ana as the only active squadrons. A detachment of ZP-31 continued at NAS Moffett Field. On November 15, 1946, ZP-12 was redesignated ZP-2 and ZP-31 became ZP-1. In the summer of 1947, ZP-1 made a home port and fleet change from NAS Santa Ana in the Pacific Fleet to NAS Weeksville in the Atlantic. The change was due to the reduction of NAS Santa Ana to a maintenance status and the elimination of the ZP overhaul mission at NAS Moffett Field. (http://www.history.navy.mil/download/lta-09.pdf)


More, we have from a book: “Oakland Aviation” By Ronald T. Reuther, William T. Larkins “Navy Reserve Squadron ZP-871 (Lighter than air) flew one after the war at Oakland from 1952 to 1958 (Note: this is a reference to the GoodYear type blimp). (This photograph shows…) It was used as a slow, low-flying billboard, with the words “JOIN THE U.S. NAVAL RESERVE, BE A NAVAL AVIATION CADET” on the side.

So there was ONLY ONE blimp at Oakland - and it was used solely as an advertising blimp over the city, between 1952 – 1958!

Add that to my original source: "Finally in August 1947, the Navy relocated ZP-1 to Weeksville, N. C. and all blimp operations on the West Coast ended."
(http://www.militarymuseum.org/MCASTustin.html)

So WHERE is your evidence about the "NEW" squadrons? You cannot supply it because it does not exist.
 
Rramjet said:
All hypotheses are equal

to You are likley to believe a debebian slave vessel is a school bus.
.
Click to expand...

Unless were describing some unimaginable attribute of hypotheses such as sex appeal, we are describing evidence when we talk about how "equal" or "unequal" hypotheses are. You seem to have now realised that hypothesis are not equal, and past research evidence can make one hypothesis vastly more likely than another, straight off the bat. So now you've backed yourself into a very strange position where your saying hypotheses are equal evidentially, but you don't treat them as if they are equal evidentially. Either that or you simply do not judge your world view based on evidence, in which case the rabbit hole just got a lot deeper.

My guess is your about to shift what attribute concerning the hypotheses your describing as equal. This should be good.
:popcorn1
 
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Now he's just lying. That takes the interest out, since nothing he says from here on is worth the time to read.
 
Rramjet,

I didn't think it would be possible to not understand the point that is being made, but somehow you managed.

This statement by you:

"You are likley to believe a debebian slave vessel is a school bus."

...indicates you correctly think giving the two hypothesis(a. school bus, b. Debebian child sex slave vessel) equal consideration is foolish. You would be right. As we say in the CT section - you've debunked yourself. Nice job.
 
Marduk said:
I live in the UK

see list
1. there are no school buses, parents are responsible for making their children attend class
2. there are no school buses
3. do I need to go into the colour of non existent school buses

so if I see a yellow school bus bearing down on me, the odds are its going to be a Denebian slave vessel

but thanks for the warning
:p
Click to expand...

So you think there are no blimps on the West coast yellow school buses in the UK?

Ha! Take a look at:
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&num=50&q=%22yellow+school+bus%22+UK&meta=&fp=83033b556f6dfe34

:p right back at ya! Don't say you weren't warned. ;)
 
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Rramjet said:
Then I post the Iranian case to point out that there are cases that seem to defy ALL mundane explanations [...]
Click to expand...


Yet there are mundane explanations. Some have already been offered. Your argument that it defies mundane explanations is an argument from ignorance and incredulity. Your lack of awareness and understanding, as well as your lack of ability to acknowledge reality in a rational, intelligent way, have nothing to do with supporting your convoluted argument or refuting any others.
 
Rramjet said:
But the pages at the links you supply have nothing to do with blimps at all (let alone the question of when and where)!
Click to expand...
You'll have to explain to me what part of this statement, from the links supplied, has nothing to do with blimps at all.
Naval History and HeritageCommand site,
"in 1949 eight new reserve LTA patrol squadrons (ZP) were established. "

Then you merely repeat your original assertions to which I can see I will have to re-post the refutations:
<snip reposts>So WHERE is your evidence about the "NEW" squadrons? You cannot supply it because it does not exist.
Click to expand...
Read the damned cite from the US Navy itself.

What part of "in 1949 eight new reserve LTA patrol squadrons (ZP) were established. ... ZP-871 at NAS Oakland, Calif.;...ZPs 951 and 952 at MCAF Santa Ana, Calif.", are you having difficulty with?

Note also these items (admitted added after I posted, so you may have missed them)

Squadron Designations for the relevant period.
ZP Airship Patrol Squadron 1942-1961
ZP Blimp Squadron 1942-1961
ZP Airship Patrol Squadron (All-Weather
Anti-Submarine) or Airship Squadron
or LTA Patrol Squadron 1942-1961
ZX Airship Operational Development
Squadron or Airship Development Squadron 1950-1957

Photograph of a Navy Reserve LTA still operating in California in 1950.
"The following photos were submitted by another Bluffs' neighbor, Van Jacobsen, when he learned that we were going to publish David Wallace's blimp memoir. According to Van: "Here are some pictures I took with a 4x5 speed graphic when I was at Tustin in the Navel Reserve during the 50s.

"It was a great experience and a lot of fun. We loved flying over football games and looking at the girls up and down the beaches. We also had practice over coastal waters and islands chasing and bombing submarines with unarmed bombs."
"
 
Rramjet said:
This is idiotic.

I asked if anyone could explain how RoboTimbo got from

All hypotheses are equal

to You are likley to believe a debebian slave vessel is a school bus.

Can ANYONE do it? No. I did not think so.
Click to expand...


Yours is an argument from ignorance and incredulity. Or if you aren't being ignorant and incredulous, your argument is another of your many lies.
 
Rramjet, your proverbial goose has been cooked. EHocking has posted demonstrative evidence, linked to authoritative sites, utterly debunking your contention that "no blimps were active on the West Coast after 1947". That claim is hogwash, and it's time you stepped up and admitted it.

If you don't, no one here will ever be able to enter into a fair and balanced discussion with you, because you will have proven yourself intellectually dishonest -- that is, willfully ignoring evidence or intentionally misconstruing it, in order to cling to preconceived notions unsupported by the facts.

Here are the facts, all well referenced by links in EHicking's posts, above:

"in 1949 eight new reserve LTA patrol squadrons (ZP) were established. ... ZP-871 at NAS Oakland, Calif.;...ZPs 951 and 952 at MCAF Santa Ana, Calif. "

There were Squadron designations for these reserve Naval airships:

ZJ Blimp Utility Squadron 1944-1945
ZK Kite Balloon Squadron 1922-1924
ZKN Kite Balloon Training Squadron*
ZKO Kite Balloon Observation Squadron*
ZNN Non-rigid Airship Training Squadron*
ZNO Non-rigid Airship Observation Squadron*
ZNP Non-rigid Airship Patrol Squadron*
ZNS Non-rigid Airship Scouting Squadron*
ZP Airship Patrol Squadron 1942-1961
ZP Blimp Squadron 1942-1961
ZP Airship Patrol Squadron (All-Weather
Anti-Submarine) or Airship Squadron
or LTA Patrol Squadron 1942-1961
ZRN Rigid Airship Training Squadron*
ZRP Rigid Airship Patrol Squadron*
ZRS Rigid Airship Scouting Squadron*
ZS Airship Anti-Submarine Squadron*
ZW Airship Early Warning Squadron 1956-1961
ZX Airship Operational Development
Squadron or Airship Development Squadron 1950-1957

There are photographs of blimps and blimp hangars in Newport Beach, California during the 1950s.​

Unless you care to challenge the veracity of these statements, based on whatever line of reasoning you care to construct, it has now been demonstrated conclusively that blimps were in operation in California from 1949, through the auspices of the Naval reserve, during the period in which you have claimed (based on information about the Navy, and not the Naval reserve, a separate entity) that no blimps flew.

It's time you owned up to your mistake, agreed with the irrefutable assertion that blimps were active during this time and in the location under discussion, and that, by extension, the Rogue River sighting can indeed be plausibly identified as a Naval reserve blimp on a test flight from Oakland or Santa Ana.

Anything less will continue to show you as intellectually dishonest and not worth debating.
 
And just to clarify (as if it needed it) LTA is 'Lighter Than Air' which was the common term attached to Blimps, Airships and Balloons.

Now unless Rramjet is going
lala.gif
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/Emoticons/lala.gif we should all be able to agree that the object at Rogue River is still Unidentified (how many more pages have been generated to get back to what EVERYONE knew all those pages ago?).

And that given that there were Blimps active (the Goodyear Blimp and the Navy RESERVE ones) on the West Coast, backed up with verifiable evidence and photographs of said blimps in several locations covering and within range of the Rogue River area, that we still can not rule out the possibility that the unidentified flying object could have been a blimp.

Agreed?
 
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