Another Landlord Worry: Is the Elevator Kosher?

[Sledge]

There are consequences to violating the rules. The consequences aren't typically held to include "divine wrath."

For example, there is this "rule" that I was taught when I was a kid; you always put down a coat of primer before you put down the main coat. Dad took that one seriously whenever we were fixing fences and what not. You see, if you don't do that, the paint doesn't stick as well. It ends up not looking as good as it would otherwise, and it doesn't last as long, and it doesn't protect the wood nearly as well.

So the consequence of not using a primer is that the final paint job isn't as good. There's a consequence to breaking the rule. Glad to see we agree on this so far.

Does this mean that Dad would be angry if I were doing a project of my own and didn't bother to prime? Probably not. He might think I was dumb, or lazy, or simply didn't care about whether or not this particular project lasted any length of time. But he wouldn't be angry, and he certainly wouldn't punish me. Failing to prime the fence will carry its own punishment; I'll have to do twice as much work in the long run when the paint peels off and I have to replace half the boards.

But the consequence is still there: the paint doesn't last as long. Whether your father cares or not is irrelevant, the consequence of not following the rule still happens.

Similarly, my mechanic has told me that I need to change the oil every 3000 miles. Will he be angry if I don't? Probably not. Heck, he'd probably be glad if I didn't, because it will result in major, expensive problems further along. He'd rather I drove the car into the ground and then paid him to do a complete rebuild. But he's nice enough, and professional enough, to offer me good advice.

So again, making a rule to change your oil every 3000 miles is pretty sensible. There's a negative consequence to not doing so. So again, the rule has a consequence if you don't follow it.

Because they're not rules about what God wants. They're rules about how God made the world to work. God has said that following these rules will make the world a better place -- and who better than Him to know? God has said that following these rules will make you a better person. And my mechanic has said that regular oil changes will make my car a better car.

So what is the consequence if I use the lift on a Saturday, or eat milk and meat together, or violate any of the other rules God said would make the world a better place? See, if we're not obeying these rules out of fear that God will seek retribution, they must have a tangible purpose. So... what is it?

Sledge, I have tried to find intelligent questions and arguments in your posts. But you seem to be interested only in offering abuse. You have shown neither a knowledge of what you are talking about nor any desire to learn more about it, only a firm and unalterable opinion. I can't understand why you are participating in a skeptical Web site.

You started with an unsupported allegation against me and seem to have gone downhill from there. If you have an issue with the post you started in on, I'd be fascinated to hear it. Otherwise... meh.

 

[Meadmaker]

... or whether other people's religion (or indeed lack of) is too?

Exactly. Why bother with that question? From their perspective, it wouldn't make their lives any better.

I want to go back to the previous point. You said.

I find it odd that the observance of such bizarre laws doesn't lead such observer to apply some degree of critical analysis, if not logic, to his behaviour and at least question the sense in it,

I think there's a premise in your analysis that is leading you away from understanding their mindset. I think observant Jews are extremely good at critical thinking, and they constantly apply a great deal of critical analysis and logic to their behavior. They just don't do it in the way you think they ought to.

Let's think about that observant Jew standing in front of the elevator on Saturday morning, wondering whether or not to get on. He has to apply a great deal of analysis to that question, because he knows about the weight sensor. He has to consider a great deal of study and legal precedent and reference to other decisions that rabbis of old made about fires, and how modern rabbis have applied that to electricity. It's quite complex.

One reason this might confuse you is that you might not understand his intentions. You might think he wants to get to the third floor. Well, he does, but that's incidental and not all that important. What he really wants is to follow the religious law. His goal is to live a life in accordance with that law.

Of course, you would like him to question and apply analysis to that decision. However, why should he? He already has made that decision. Is there a God? It can't be proven. He has decided he will live his life as if there is. Did God give laws to the Jews? Again, unproven. He has already decided. Our hypothetical Jew already knows that leading the life of an observant Jew works for him and makes him happy. He's not going to question that part. The only question left for him of any consequence is whether observant Jews can ride that style of elevator on Saturday. That, to him, is an interesting question, unlike the ones you think he ough to waste his time with.

 

[timhau]

It's hard to be (observant) Jewish. There are a lot of rules and regulations that even the rabbis admit do not make a hell of a lot of sense, but they keep them anyway.

For some reason, I have a lot more respect for someone who says "This doesn't make much sense, but we'll do it anyway" than for someone who insults the intelligence of his/her listeners by twisting logic and making stuff up to justify their actions.

 

[zooterkin]

See, if we're not obeying these rules out of fear that God will seek retribution, they must have a tangible purpose. So... what is it?

Well, one reason is to identify who is in and who is out of your group. It can help bonding, particularly if you are living among people who do things differently from you. It also keeps you separate to some degree from the society around you.

 

[Southwind17]

I think observant Jews are extremely good at critical thinking, and they constantly apply a great deal of critical analysis and logic to their behavior.

"Extremely good". Meaning towards the top end of the critical thinking spectrum, presumably. The particular observent Jew that you describe as follows wouldn't happen to be one of those, though, would he?!:

What he really wants is to follow the religious law. His goal is to live a life in accordance with that law.

Of course, you would like him to question and apply analysis to that decision. However, why should he? He already has made that decision. Is there a God? It can't be proven. He has decided he will live his life as if there is. Did God give laws to the Jews? Again, unproven. He has already decided. Our hypothetical Jew already knows that leading the life of an observant Jew works for him and makes him happy. He's not going to question that part. The only question left for him of any consequence is whether observant Jews can ride that style of elevator on Saturday. That, to him, is an interesting question, unlike the ones you think he ough to waste his time with.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

You speak for yourself mate!

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but to be serious a moment, I think it's pretty evident that the vast majority of people throughout the vast majority of known human history have believed in some religion or another. Even though you, Southwind, are not a believer, this surely says something interesting about how even your disbelieving human brain is organized. Like it or not.

...snip...
So what is the consequence if I use the lift on a Saturday, or eat milk and meat together, or violate any of the other rules God said would make the world a better place? See, if we're not obeying these rules out of fear that God will seek retribution, they must have a tangible purpose. So... what is it?

This question wasn't directed at me, but I've tried to address it upthread, apparently not very successfully, so I'll take one more shot. Again, it's based on personal conversations with Orthodox friends. My understanding may not be 100%.

So, ever since the Adam and Eve fiasco, the world has been in a spiritually fallen state. We dug our hole, and we're wallowing deep inside it. The Bible -- more specifically the Torah -- is a set of instructions for how to dig back out. The Jew believes that every instance of following the law, no matter how small -- every so-called mitzvah, or “good deed” -- gets us a little closer to the top.

Now, one day God is going to descend and say, “Okay, kiddies, time's up.” He's going to wave his very magical wand, and bring the world to the state of spiritual perfection it was always meant to occupy. If we're still very far down the hole, we are going to get A LOT of thoroughly horrible “junk” tossed on top of us before we can reach the top. If we're high up the hole, our suffering will be proportionately less.

So a Jew alive today may or may not see the fruits of their labor, making the motivation highly altruistic, if you believe the mumbo jumbo. On the other hand -- and this may be crossing the line into kabbalah here -- but I believe the Jew can also expect what they call their “portion in heaven” according to how spiritually advanced they've become.

That aspect of the reward system, however, is greatly underemphasized (if it even exists at all, depending on the school of thought); and altogether, I find Judaism much more ennobling in the abstract than, say, Christianity.

 

[Southwind17]

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but to be serious a moment, I think it's pretty evident that the vast majority of people throughout the vast majority of known human history have believed in some religion or another. Even though you, Southwind, are not a believer, this surely says something interesting about how even your disbelieving human brain is organized. Like it or not.

I can't help being born with a brain that's somehow superior to that of a god botherer, at least in the "Woo Cortex". And believe me, that is being serious for a moment!

 

[drkitten]

So the consequence of not using a primer is that the final paint job isn't as good. There's a consequence to breaking the rule. Glad to see we agree on this so far.

Except that I'm not sure we would have agreed on this when I was six. I thought it was stupid that in order to paint the fence white, I needed to paint it grey, first.

There's a huge difference between a rule having no consequences and a rule having consequences of which I am unaware, yes?

So what is the consequence if I use the lift on a Saturday, or eat milk and meat together, or violate any of the other rules God said would make the world a better place? See, if we're not obeying these rules out of fear that God will seek retribution, they must have a tangible purpose. So... what is it?

You don't need to know. You just need to know that God is smarter than you are and can see consequences that you can't. (That's a very explicit lesson from the Book of Job, start at chapter 38. E.g among many, "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? ")

You are operating under the joint assumption that you are capable of understanding things as well as God does as well as that God is willing to explain his understanding to your satisfaction. Neither of these assumptions can be really be justified, and in most Jewish traditions, they are not only not justified, but explicitly rejected.

You may not have found it satisfactory when your mother responded to you with "because I'm your mother, that's why," but your dissatisfaction doesn't mean that she was wrong and you were right.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Similarly, my mechanic has told me that I need to change the oil every 3000 miles. Will he be angry if I don't? Probably not. Heck, he'd probably be glad if I didn't, because it will result in major, expensive problems further along. He'd rather I drove the car into the ground and then paid him to do a complete rebuild. But he's nice enough, and professional enough, to offer me good advice.

You're saying god wants us to change oil every 3000 miles?

 

[Meadmaker]

"Extremely good". Meaning towards the top end of the critical thinking spectrum, presumably. The particular observent Jew that you describe as follows wouldn't happen to be one of those, though, would he?!:

Absolutely! He knows what he wants to do (follow the religious law). He knows why he wants to do it (because that is what observant Jews do, and he wants to be one of them). Now, he thinks critically about every aspect of his life to see if it gets him toward his goal. Do you pay attention to the details of your life to anywhere near the extent he does?

You have bizarre rituals in your life, too. I know that sometimes I want to convince people that they ought to give me money in exchange for me writing software. Before I go talk to those people, I wrap a strip of colored cloth around my neck. I might put on an extra layer of clothing as well, even in the middle of summer. By any rational, reasonable, standard, that is bizarre behavior. Surely, I must be mentally imbalanced.

That guy is just part of a different community, and so he has different rituals. Yes, his rituals correspond to a belief in God, but he's a lot more concerned about the neighbors. He follows the law because that is part of his identity, not because God will be angry with him if he doesn't.

 

[Southwind17]

You just need to know that God is smarter than you are and can see consequences that you can't.

You may not have found it satisfactory when your mother responded to you with "because I'm your mother, that's why," but your dissatisfaction doesn't mean that she was wrong and you were right.

You've hit the nail right on the pointy bit here. It doesn't mean that she was right either!

 

[drkitten]

You've hit the nail right on the pointy bit here. It doesn't mean that she was right either!

Of course not. But this is one of those "outsider"/"insider" distinctions. You consider believing that your mother was right to be not only wrong out of the box, but an active sign of mental aberration. There are theists that believe that even to consider the possibility that she is wrong is a sign of mental weakness.

Of course, you're both wrong. There is no rational basis for rejecting either statement, because the way the rules of the statement are set up, you don't have access to all necessary information, and no particular reason to assume you will ever have access.

And that's why rational people have held both positions more or less throughout history.

 

[Southwind17]

Absolutely! He knows what he wants to do (follow the religious law).

... no critical thinking required there then ...

He knows why he wants to do it (because that is what observant Jews do ...

... or there ...

... and he wants to be one of them).

... or there.

Now, he thinks critically ...

Ah ... eventually ... I see what you mean by "extreme" now ...

... about every aspect of his life ...

... apart from what lies behind his motivations, of course ...

... to see if it gets him toward his goal.

... like a blind sheep. A happy blind sheep, though, no doubt.

Do you pay attention to the details of your life to anywhere near the extent he does?

Or an OCD sufferer, to quote another extremity? No thanks.

You have bizarre rituals in your life, too. I know that sometimes I want to convince people that they ought to give me money in exchange for me writing software. Before I go talk to those people, I wrap a strip of colored cloth around my neck. I might put on an extra layer of clothing as well, even in the middle of summer. By any rational, reasonable, standard, that is bizarre behavior. Surely, I must be mentally imbalanced.

You could be argued to be mentally imbalanced because you equate universally accepted and still widely expected business customs to irrational religious rituals, but I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt. You might have noticed the increasing relaxation of such business customs in many walks of life, though. Do you see orthodox Jewish observence and such going the same way any time soon?

 

[drkitten]

Do you see orthodox Jewish observence and such going the same way any time soon?

You've not been paying attention, have you?

It's not a question of going the same way "any time soon." It has been going that way for nearly 200 years. That's what "Reform Judaism" is. And in response to the responders, "Conservative Judaism" was founded about 120 years ago.

To continue the business attire analogy, the Reform Jews are the equivalent of Google, willing to abandon traditional business customs. The Orthodox Jews are the equivalent of the white-shoe bankers and lawyers who still insist on formal business attire, and the Conservative Jews have gone "business casual" (but still won't let me get away with a T-shirt like I can at Google).

And nothing prevents a person from leaving his white-shoe law firm to take a position as corporate counsel at Google, or vice versa.

 

[Southwind17]

You've not been paying attention, have you?

I beg your pardon?:

Do you see orthodox Jewish observence and such going the same way any time soon?

 

[Elizabeth I]

Except that I'm not sure we would have agreed on this when I was six. I thought it was stupid that in order to paint the fence white, I needed to paint it grey, first.

There's a huge difference between a rule having no consequences and a rule having consequences of which I am unaware, yes?

You don't need to know. You just need to know that God is smarter than you are and can see consequences that you can't. (That's a very explicit lesson from the Book of Job, start at chapter 38. E.g among many, "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? ")

You are operating under the joint assumption that you are capable of understanding things as well as God does as well as that God is willing to explain his understanding to your satisfaction. Neither of these assumptions can be really be justified, and in most Jewish traditions, they are not only not justified, but explicitly rejected.
You may not have found it satisfactory when your mother responded to you with "because I'm your mother, that's why," but your dissatisfaction doesn't mean that she was wrong and you were right.

re: highlighted portion - I'm sorry, I don't understand. The assumptions were first justified, then rejected? If you were going to reject them, why bother to justify them first? (Those are serious questions, I'm not trying to be flippant or a smart***.)

 

[Sledge]

Ah, I think I finally see the problem, drkitten. My mother never justified any decision she made regarding me with "I'm your mother, that's why." From the time I was old enough to ask questions and understand the answers, things were explained to me. At the age of four, I came home from my first day at school and said "I don't want to go back there ever again." My mother sat down with me and we discussed what would happen if I never went to school again, starting with the local authorities investigating and moving all the way up to me being taken into care and my parents potentially being imprisoned. I grudgingly accepted that I would attend school. So I'm afraid your examples don't work very well for me. God in this example becomes a bad parent.

ETA:

Well, one reason is to identify who is in and who is out of your group. It can help bonding, particularly if you are living among people who do things differently from you. It also keeps you separate to some degree from the society around you.

And hasn't that worked out well for the Jews? God doesn't seem to understand human nature very well. "Guys, I want you to adopt practices that will make you stand out from everyone else. I'm sure this will in no way backfire and cause you to be viewed with suspicion by other groups."

 

[Eyeron]

Getting back to the original post, I thought being Kosher only applied to food.

 

[Toke]

Getting back to the original post, I thought being Kosher only applied to food.

So did I at some point, and since one of my favorite dishes is pigs heart finely cut and boiled with cream, onions and shredded tomatoes, I decided that that was one religion I would never take up.

 

[Southwind17]

So did I at some point, and since one of my favorite dishes is pigs heart finely cut and boiled with cream, onions and shredded tomatoes, I decided that that was one religion I would never take up.

Interesting. How've you fared with those you have?!