Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Hokulele]

This is a cop out. Bottom line is you made a derogatory statement about me and can't explain your reasoning. If you changed your mind you should admit it instead of playing games.

And you are demonstrating that you would rather whine about my comments than re-read pax's post for comprehension.

And please explain, how is pointing out your failure to comprehend pax's point a derogatory comment?

 

[paximperium]

And you are demonstrating that you would rather whine about my comments than re-read pax's post for comprehension.

And please explain, how is pointing out your failure to comprehend pax's point a derogatory comment?

It was terrifying. I had this nightmare that DOC was channeling me and putting words in my mouth...shiver...I'm going to curl into a ball now.

 

[Eyeron]

So then you must believe in an absolute morality outside of individual reasoning because I get the impression that if Germany and Japan and Italy had won the war and taken over the world you would still believe the Holocaust was evil.

A: I don't know what absolute morality outside of individual reasoning is.

B: I do not believe in absolute morality.

C: Whenever I hear the term "Absolute morality" I've only heard in context of religion, in that morality is absolute and it can only come from God, and absolutely no place else.

D: My statement was not a statement of my belief but an observation of the behavior of racists.

e: I believe any genocide is evil. Even when God does it.

 

[pakeha]

Superb.
DOC actually went back to a post made by joobz on 8 March 2009 (page 51 of this thread) to come up with this derailment ploy.
Granted, page 51 is an interesting read, but hardly 'evidence' for why we know the NT writers told the truth.
Unless there's some sort of hidden 'code' in the post texts?

So.
DOC still hasn't answered my repeated question as to why he felt the need to dredge up up a post from over 100 pages ago. Especially since it's about a topic which has it's own thread.
Still.
Let's see how this plays out.

 

[pakeha]

So then you must believe in an absolute morality outside of individual reasoning because I get the impression that if Germany and Japan and Italy had won the war and taken over the world you would still believe the Holocaust was evil.

DOC.
This scenario could make an interesting story or script or comic, but it's really out of place here.
Isn't reality quite sufficient without these off-base speculations?
Can't you argue without 'what ifs'?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I've sent some pointless bickering to AAH. Please refrain from sniping at eachother.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Professor Yaffle

 

[DOC]

Doc said "Also the very existence of the largest religion in the world, Christianity, can be considered evidence."

And more people are non-Christian than are Christian. And that can be considered as evidence.

Yes, but you left out my explanation for my statement which was that the Resurrection is the "main reason" Christianity even exists as a religion. It doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist if you take away the resurrection, so the fact that Christianity exists to the extant it does can be considered some evidence for the resurrection. This point is so obvious, but a lot of people never even think about it.

RE: "List of Christian Martyrs" evidence that Christianity is true?

Just as the deaths of lots of young men by suicide bombs is evidence of the truth of Islam.

The suicide bombers never lived with Mohammed for 3 years like the apostles did with Jesus. And political and nationalistic factors also play a part in their actions. A lot of people die for a cause that they think is true but is false, but nobody dies for a cause they know is false. The apostles who lived with Jesus for 3 years would have needed some evidence that Jesus in fact did rise from the dead. The fact that 11 of them were martyred at different times and places and none of them recanted when it could have saved their lives (especially after they demonstrated uncertainty and cowardice pre-Resurrection) shows me that those 11 apostles did in fact witness a Resurrected Christ.

ETA: The suicide bombers die for an ideology, the apostles died because of one historical event that happened in their city. They would have needed convincing evidence of that single historical event in their city for all 11 of them to be willing to die and be tortured at different times and places long after Jesus was gone.

 

[joobz]

Yes, but you left out my explanation for my statement which was that the Resurrection is the "main reason" Christianity even exists as a religion. It doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist if you take away the resurrection, so the fact that Christianity exists to the extant it does can be considered some evidence for the resurrection. This point is so obvious, but a lot of people never even think about it.

What ressurection? The one the bibe claims happened and has no other evidence of ever existing?

The suicide bombers never lived with Mohammed for 3 years like the apostles did with Jesus.

So?

And political and nationalistic factors also play a part in their actions. A lot of people die for a cause that they think is true but is false, but nobody dies for a cause they know is false.

Just like christianity.

The apostles who lived with Jesus for 3 years would have needed some evidence that Jesus in fact did rise from the dead. The fact that 11 of them were martyred at different times and places and none of them recanted when it could have saved their lives (especially after they demonstrated uncertainty and cowardice pre-Resurrection) shows me that those 11 apostles did in fact witness a Resurrected Christ.

no.

And considering Luke made up stories to support the narrative. Just ask Father Murphy-O'Connor.

 

[paximperium]

Yes, but you left out my explanation for my statement which was that the Resurrection is the "main reason" Christianity even exists as a religion. It doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist if you take away the resurrection, so the fact that Christianity exists to the extant it does can be considered some evidence for the resurrection. This point is so stupid and irrational obvious, but a lot of people never even think about it.

Corrected it for you.

The suicide bombers never lived with Mohammed for 3 years like the apostles did with Jesus. And political and nationalistic factors also play a part in their actions. A lot of people die for a cause that they think is true but is false, but nobody dies for a cause they know is false. The apostles who lived with Jesus for 3 years would have needed some evidence that Jesus in fact did rise from the dead. The fact that 11 of them were martyred at different times and places and none of them recanted when it could have saved their lives (especially after they demonstrated uncertainty and cowardice pre-Resurrection) shows me that those 11 apostles did in fact witness a Resurrected Christ.

Jones Town/Heaven's Gate/ Mormonism etc etc etc makes your claim irrelevant nonsense.

Here's an interesting question. What evidence is there that these mythical people were allegedly martyred again? We are talking evidence aren't we?

 

[pakeha]

Yes, but you left out my explanation for my statement which was that the Resurrection is the "main reason" Christianity even exists as a religion. It doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist if you take away the resurrection, so the fact that Christianity exists to the extant it does can be considered some evidence for the resurrection. This point is so obvious, but a lot of people never even think about it.

Ah. Circular reasoning.
Christianity's existence only makes sense with the resurrection therefore the existence of Christianity is evidence for the resurrection.
Perfect for the pulpit, I'm quite sertain, but just a bit lacking for a forum.
This wasn't the new evidence, was it?

The suicide bombers never lived with Mohammed for 3 years like the apostles did with Jesus. And political and nationalistic factors also play a part in their actions. A lot of people die for a cause that they think is true but is false, but nobody dies for a cause they know is false. The apostles who lived with Jesus for 3 years would have needed some evidence that Jesus in fact did rise from the dead. The fact that 11 of them were martyred at different times and places and none of them recanted when it could have saved their lives (especially after they demonstrated uncertainty and cowardice pre-Resurrection) shows me that those 11 apostles did in fact witness a Resurrected Christ.

I adressed this point earlier. Hagiology isn't history.
The alleged martyrdom of those apostles, something which can't be verified, can't be considered evidence of the truth of their faith.

ETA: The suicide bombers die for an ideology, the apostles died because of one historical event that happened in their city. They would have needed convincing evidence of that single historical event in their city for all 11 of them to be willing to die and be tortured at different times and places long after Jesus was gone

.

You're repeating yourself, DOC.
There's no evidence of these martyrdoms, at least there's no evidence that's been presented here.

Conviction and faith even unto martyrdom aren't proof of Islam's truth and it seems to me the same standard must be applied to Christianity.

And the new evidence, DOC?

 

[joobz]

You're repeating yourself, DOC.

IT's called special pleading. it's a page directly out of the Geisler playbook.

It would be like listening to someone explaining how superman comics are real, while all other comic books are merely fiction.

 

[DOC]

Corrected it for you.

Another no explanation post.

Jones Town/Heaven's Gate/ Mormonism etc etc etc makes your claim irrelevant nonsense.

No, they don't because Jonestown and Heaven's Gate were mass suicides that occurred at the same time and in the same place with their hypnotic leader and fellow believers right there to pressure them whereas the apostles deaths occurred long after their leader (who could of pressured them) was gone; and their deaths also were spread out in different times and places so they had plenty of time to think about there actions and the torture and death that was likely going to happen because of their belief in a historical event that happened in their city to a person they knew personally.

And I don't know of any Mormon martyrs other than Joseph Smith (the man who believed it was OK to marry still married women) and one of his followers. The Mormons in fact left populated areas to avoid persecutions and settled in the middle of nowhere, whereas the Christians went straight to Rome itself to preach (some might remember my thread entitled "It is quite certain Peter spent his final years in Rome")... I think the Mormons today do some good work but I just think they follow a twisted version of the bible. I also believe their belief that God (the Father) lives in physical human form near the planet or star Kolob is unbiblical. But all that is another thread.

 

[DOC]

There's no evidence of these martyrdoms, at least there's no evidence that's been presented here.

There is historical evidence. Do you think all this has just been made up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

 

[joobz]

There is historical evidence. Do you think all this has just been made up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

Any evidence for the resurrection outside the bible?

 

[paximperium]

Another no explanation post.

It's very self explanatory.

No, they don't because Jonestown and Heaven's Gate were mass suicides that occurred at the same time and in the same place with their hypnotic leader and fellow believers right there to pressure them whereas the apostles deaths occurred long after their leader (who could of pressured them) was gone; and their deaths also were spread out in different times and places so they had plenty of time to think about there actions and the torture and death that was likely going to happen because of their belief in a historical event that happened in their city to a person they knew personally.

And I don't know of any Mormon martyrs other than Joseph Smith (the man who believed it was OK to marry still married women) and one of his followers. The Mormons in fact left populated areas to avoid persecutions and settled in the middle of nowhere, whereas the Christians went straight to Rome itself to preach (some might remember my thread entitled "It is quite certain Peter spent his final years in Rome")... I think the Mormons today do some good work but I just think they follow a twisted version of the bible. I also believe their belief that God (the Father) lives in physical human form near the planet or star Kolob is unbiblical. But all that is another thread.

Yawn:

IT's called special pleading. it's a page directly out of the Geisler playbook.

It would be like listening to someone explaining how superman comics are real, while all other comic books are merely fiction.

So any evidence of these mythic martyrs yet?

 

[Hokulele]

There is historical evidence. Do you think all this has just been made up.

Yes, most of those stories have been made up. The only evidence for Stephen's stoning is Acts, and once again, you cannot use the New Testament to prove the New Testament is true. There is no written record, none, of Paul's fate. It is assumed he was beheaded in Rome as there is no information about or from Paul once he went to Rome, but there is nothing stating explicitly what his fate might be.

Please provide non-Biblical evidence that any of these people died in the manner listed.

 

[pakeha]

There is historical evidence. Do you think all this has just been made up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

Yes, DOC, I think it's all made up.
Show me the historical evidence.
Posting up the wiki list yet again actually has the opposite effect that you somehow imagine it could have on the readers here.

Post up your evidence for those Christian martyrs, DOC.
I'd like to see it.

 

[Elizabeth I]

The suicide bombers never lived with Mohammed for 3 years like the apostles did with Jesus. And political and nationalistic factors also play a part in their actions. A lot of people die for a cause that they think is true but is false, but nobody dies for a cause they know is false. The apostles who lived with Jesus for 3 years would have needed some evidence that Jesus in fact did rise from the dead.

WHAT? A while back you claimed that Heaven's Gate, Jonestown, etc., could be hand-waved away because the leaders were right there with them making them drink the Kool-Aid or eat the applesauce or whatever. Now you adduce propinquity as an explanation for the martyrdom of the Disciples.

Oh, wait, here you go again with Jonestown and Heaven's Gate:

No, they don't because Jonestown and Heaven's Gate were mass suicides that occurred at the same time and in the same place with their hypnotic leader and fellow believers right there to pressure them whereas the apostles deaths occurred long after their leader (who could of pressured them) was gone; and their deaths also were spread out in different times and places so they had plenty of time to think about there actions and the torture and death that was likely going to happen because of their belief in a historical event that happened in their city to a person they knew personally.

And you still haven't explained the self-immolation of Buddhist monks, which is almost always a solitary act.

 

[Simon39759]

Another no explanation post.


No, they don't because Jonestown and Heaven's Gate were mass suicides that occurred at the same time and in the same place with their hypnotic leader and fellow believers right there to pressure them whereas the apostles deaths occurred long after their leader (who could of pressured them) was gone; and their deaths also were spread out in different times and places so they had plenty of time to think about there actions and the torture and death that was likely going to happen because of their belief in a historical event that happened in their city to a person they knew personally.

And I don't know of any Mormon martyrs other than Joseph Smith (the man who believed it was OK to marry still married women) and one of his followers. The Mormons in fact left populated areas to avoid persecutions and settled in the middle of nowhere, whereas the Christians went straight to Rome itself to preach (some might remember my thread entitled "It is quite certain Peter spent his final years in Rome")... I think the Mormons today do some good work but I just think they follow a twisted version of the bible. I also believe their belief that God (the Father) lives in physical human form near the planet or star Kolob is unbiblical. But all that is another thread.

Meh, once again, your evidence for The New Testament is only found in the New Testament... You have been explained before why that kid of circular reasoning was unconvincing, with drawings even. Animated ones too!


Anyway, what about the order of the Solar temple, then?
Several members did commit suicide almost six months after the actual mass suicide, that included the group leader. Not only were these members not pressured by the dead leader, but they had several months to reflect on it and still went ahead with the suicide.

The day of Manson's condemnation, it seems that several of the members of the family still believed enough in him to murder in his name.
Even years after Manson's condemnation, some of these people did try and kidnap Gerald Ford to trade for Manson, accepting significant personal risks in the process.
Surely, they knew Charles Manson well, having leaved with him for months and, surely, they would not have devised such a dangerous plan if they did not believe his claims...


See how your argument does not hold up?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Let's not forget that more happened surrounding Jonestown than what happened in the camp: A U.S. Congressman, Leo Ryan, and members of his entourage were murdered by Temple followers at the Port Kaituma airfield. Sharon Amos and her daughter Liane, on orders radioed to them from Jonestown, killed Sharon's two younger children Temple headquarters in Georgetown. Afterward, Sharon helped Liane take her own life then committed suicide herself.

But these people were coerced into committing these acts by Jim Jones, yes? I mean, there is just no way they acted on their own beliefs, right DOC?