Another Landlord Worry: Is the Elevator Kosher?

[Sledge]

You don't have to know what the right answer is to know that some proposed answer is wrong.

Are you a fortune cookie phrase generator that's managed to get online?

drkitten: If God doesn't care, and there are no consequences for not violating the rules, they're not rules, are they? See, the problem I'm having is that evidently some people take these superstitions very seriously. But if God doesn't care whether someone takes the lift, why should they?

Meadmaker: It's not projecting to say that Jews do things because their religion tells them to. I don't quite follow that line of thought. Ok, I think that those rules were made up for whatever reason by someone way back when, but the point of the religion is it's a bunch of stuff God said. That's why these rules have endured. I can come up with reasons that someone might stick with them ("I'll take the stairs today to get a bit of exercise"), but we're talking about people sticking to them because... what? Can you see the problem we're having understanding this? The rituals we're talking about, stripped of their religious trappings sound like OCD.

 

[Southwind17]

That's not just a standard part of Orthodox Jewish theology; that's a standard part of Jewish theology. Following the rules makes you a better person and makes the world a better place.

The point that I was getting at is that observance of those religious rituals obviously makes those atheists feel like they are somehow getting something out of the observance, and whatever they get out of the observance is probably the same thing that the majority of God-believing Jews get out of it.Divine favor or disfavor is something that Jews just don't talk much about. I just can't imagine a Jew being worried about God's wrath if he decided to press the button for the non-Shabbos elevator on the sabbath.

So why not observe constantly, then. Just think how much better the world would be then!

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

If people who observe religious rituals are “mentally imbalanced,” then the majority of the world's population is imbalanced. Which would require a complete and self-contradictory redefinition of “mentally normal.” Wouldn't it?


Also, it's a mistake to equate Jewish beliefs of Divine punishment with Christian beliefs. They're not the same.

The Jewish God is going to make his “Kingdom Come” whether anyone likes it or not. The role of the Jew is to follow the laws in order to make the transition relatively painless -- not to specifically benefit themselves and themselves alone.

Finally, a word about the Sabbath. My orthodox friends explain it this way: The entire universe inhabits a somewhat different state of being on the Sabbath. The Jew follows all these Sabbath rules to partake in that altered state of being. Again, not for personal gain, but to help bring the world a few more little steps closer to the kind of spiritual state required of God.

Observing the Sabbath all the time simply would not make sense in this scheme.

 

[drkitten]

drkitten: If God doesn't care, and there are no consequences for not violating the rules, they're not rules, are they?

There are consequences to violating the rules. The consequences aren't typically held to include "divine wrath."

For example, there is this "rule" that I was taught when I was a kid; you always put down a coat of primer before you put down the main coat. Dad took that one seriously whenever we were fixing fences and what not. You see, if you don't do that, the paint doesn't stick as well. It ends up not looking as good as it would otherwise, and it doesn't last as long, and it doesn't protect the wood nearly as well.

Does this mean that Dad would be angry if I were doing a project of my own and didn't bother to prime? Probably not. He might think I was dumb, or lazy, or simply didn't care about whether or not this particular project lasted any length of time. But he wouldn't be angry, and he certainly wouldn't punish me. Failing to prime the fence will carry its own punishment; I'll have to do twice as much work in the long run when the paint peels off and I have to replace half the boards.

Similarly, my mechanic has told me that I need to change the oil every 3000 miles. Will he be angry if I don't? Probably not. Heck, he'd probably be glad if I didn't, because it will result in major, expensive problems further along. He'd rather I drove the car into the ground and then paid him to do a complete rebuild. But he's nice enough, and professional enough, to offer me good advice.

See, the problem I'm having is that evidently some people take these superstitions very seriously. But if God doesn't care whether someone takes the lift, why should they?

Because they're not rules about what God wants. They're rules about how God made the world to work. God has said that following these rules will make the world a better place -- and who better than Him to know? God has said that following these rules will make you a better person. And my mechanic has said that regular oil changes will make my car a better car.

 

[drkitten]

So why not observe constantly, then. Just think how much better the world would be then!

Because if a little bit is good, seven times as much must be lots better?

 

[Kritikos]

Are you a fortune cookie phrase generator that's managed to get online?

Sledge, I have tried to find intelligent questions and arguments in your posts. But you seem to be interested only in offering abuse. You have shown neither a knowledge of what you are talking about nor any desire to learn more about it, only a firm and unalterable opinion. I can't understand why you are participating in a skeptical Web site.

 

[Meadmaker]

So why not observe constantly, then. Just think how much better the world would be then!

Follow the sabbath rules when it's not the sabbath?

Huh? That wouldn't make any sense at all.

Now who's mentally imbalanced?

 

[bigjelmapro]

So one can have an opinion (that just happens to differ from yours), but when one expresses such opinion it's interpreted as trolling! I genuinely consider that observance of whacky religious customs (if not all religious customs) shows some mental imbalance. You might consider that such a view shows some mental retardation (you might, of course, just say that as a blinkered defense mechanism). Regardless, we're all entitled to express our opinions. If you don't like what you read you have choices: Stop reading or grow thicker skin. The last thing you should do, though, is suggest that people should not be entitled to express their opinions. That's one of the worst forms of religious custom I know, and a contributory factor to my having the opinion I do - possibly you yours. Remember - choices. Nobody's forcing you to respond (assuming you've read this!).

Nope. Your statements are, by definition trolling. Consistently stating that practicing religious customs = mental imbalance does nothing to contribute to this thread.

The statement I made in reaction to this trolling still seems to go a bit over your head.

So continue trolling all you wish, I'm just wondering how much you've convinced yourself that your replies actually aren't consistent with trolling and are somehow a basis for an opinion.

 

[Southwind17]

If people who observe religious rituals are “mentally imbalanced,” then the majority of the world's population is imbalanced.

Hey ho - you're learning fast!

Which would require a complete and self-contradictory redefinition of “mentally normal.” Wouldn't it?

Possibly - but not necessarily self-contradictory. But "mentally imbalanced" still has its place. Let's call it "mentally illogical", if you like, which can run consistent with "mentally normal" (new definition).

Finally, a word about the Sabbath. My orthodox friends explain it this way: The entire universe inhabits a somewhat different state of being on the Sabbath. The Jew follows all these Sabbath rules to partake in that altered state of being.

"The entire universe"! Now that's what I'm getting at. Set the controls for the heart of the Sun!

Observing the Sabbath all the time simply would not make sense in this scheme.

And observing it intermittently does make sense? By whose reckoning? Oh yes, I remember, not to worry.

Because if a little bit is good, seven times as much must be lots better?

Hey, we're not talking Aspirin here you know!

Follow the sabbath rules when it's not the sabbath?
Huh? That wouldn't make any sense at all.
Now who's mentally imbalanced?

It's hard to tell, with all this silly "nonsense" competing with the "sense".

Nope. Your statements are, by definition trolling. Consistently stating that practicing religious customs = mental imbalance does nothing to contribute to this thread.

Maybe not, but I feel better for it, so it has its upside. A small price to pay for the downside.

The statement I made in reaction to this trolling still seems to go a bit over your head.

Yes, that's a downside of being rational, I suppose, it tends to make one argumentatively "shorter".

So continue trolling all you wish, I'm just wondering how much you've convinced yourself that your replies actually aren't consistent with trolling and are somehow a basis for an opinion.

Allow me to satisfy your wonderment - I'm totally convinced.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

Hey ho - you're learning fast!

What can I say, I'm mentally balanced.

Possibly - but not necessarily self-contradictory. But "mentally imbalanced" still has its place. Let's call it "mentally illogical", if you like, which can run consistent with "mentally normal" (new definition).

I guess my bigger issue is really with the term "mental retardation" in this context. If you're willing to give that up, I'm willing to let you have "mentally illogical."

And to go a step further, I'd argue that one can be mentally healthy (not just "normal"), yet frequently illogical. In fact, that's pretty much the human condition.

"The entire universe"! Now that's what I'm getting at. Set the controls for the heart of the Sun!

Actually, I should have used the term "Creation." The difference is that Creation includes all the spiritual aspects of existence. And that's the realm where observing the Sabbath makes "sense." By which I mean, has a certain internal consistency.

 

[drkitten]

And observing it intermittently does make sense? By whose reckoning?

Any sensible person.

Keeping the Sabbath is at least partly about work/life balance. Explicitly so. It's not good for you to work all the time. Hence you are told to refrain from working, and also to refrain from working others (your children, your servants, your animals, and so forth).

The Japanese even have a word for this : "Karoshi," literally "death from overwork."

But it's also not good never to work. I'm not sure the Japanese have a word for this, but the Americans sure do.

I don't know how you'd get any work done if you kept the Sabbath every day.

 

[Southwind17]

What can I say, I'm mentally balanced.

Good for you.

I guess my bigger issue is really with the term "mental retardation" in this context. If you're willing to give that up, I'm willing to let you have "mentally illogical."

If by "give that up" you mean accept that it's not the same as "mental imbalance" (or now "mentally illogical") it's a deal. "Mental retardation" is not a term I introduced into the debate afterall. At the end of the day I'm neither a neurologist nor a psychologist (and I suspect you're not) so the terms we use here are largely arbitrary.

And to go a step further, I'd argue that one can be mentally healthy (not just "normal"), yet frequently illogical. In fact, that's pretty much the human condition.

Not sure what you mean by "mentally healthy" (other than not having an important chunk of your brain missing!) as opposed to "mentally balanced". Regardless, perfect logic is probably something that eludes all of us. Blatant illogicity (there's a cool word!), however, is usually obvious when it comes along and smacks you square in the face, as is the case for many religious practices and rituals, such as praying (and thinking it will have a tangible, physical effect). That's the kind of "mental imbalance" I'm alluding to.

Actually, I should have used the term "Creation." The difference is that Creation includes all the spiritual aspects of existence. And that's the realm where observing the Sabbath makes "sense." By which I mean, has a certain internal consistency.

Do you really mean "spiritual" or "mental" (or do you consider those two words interchangeable)?

Any sensible person.

Mmm ... I see that as begging the question, at worst, maybe oxymoronic, but just plain contradictory at best. I'm sure you'll disagree, though

Keeping the Sabbath is at least partly about work/life balance. Explicitly so. It's not good for you to work all the time. Hence you are told to refrain from working, and also to refrain from working others (your children, your servants, your animals, and so forth).

I have no problem with that concept. One doesn't have to be a Jew, though, to "keep the Sabbath", so to speak. It's how a Jew chooses to live the "life" part of such balance, or rather the lengths he'll go to to refrain from "working" that I find peculiar, though. BTW - don't Jews get weekends and holiday entitlements, like the rest of us?

I don't know how you'd get any work done if you kept the Sabbath every day.

You wouldn't need to work. The world would be such a wonderful place just to wile away your time in, surely!

 

[Meadmaker]

You wouldn't need to work. The world would be such a wonderful place just to wile away your time in, surely!

Of course, the sabbath is supposed to be different from all of the other days. If you kept the sabbath every day, you'd be breaking the sabbath.

Maybe we could do one day work weeks!

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

If by "give that up" you mean accept that it's not the same as "mental imbalance" (or now "mentally illogical") it's a deal. "Mental retardation" is not a term I introduced into the debate afterall. At the end of the day I'm neither a neurologist nor a psychologist (and I suspect you're not) so the terms we use here are largely arbitrary.

Not to rag on you, but “mental retardation” was, in fact, a term you introduced into the debate:

...snip...
I genuinely consider that observance of whacky religious customs (if not all religious customs) shows some mental imbalance. You might consider that such a view shows some mental retardation (you might, of course, just say that as a blinkered defense mechanism).
...snip...

It doesn't require a psychologist to identify mental retardation, only an IQ number (many of my observant friends are fiercely, demonstrably intelligent -- ivy league Ph.D.s, M.D.s, the works). Nonetheless, it sounds like you're disavowing the term, so we're all good here.

Do you really mean "spiritual" or "mental" (or do you consider those two words interchangeable)?

This is the heart of the matter for me. I don't think the mistake of the Jew is in going well out of their way to follow a set of seemingly irrational laws to achieve a consistent world view. The mistake is in believing there's a spiritual realm in the first place.

It's a single, fundamental error -- asserting a vast facet of existence without evidence -- and some lesser associated errors -- believing that existence is governed by Biblical rules.

So how illogical is it to believe in a spiritual realm? Thoroughly. But once you believe in it, following its laws -- however bizarre -- is less so.

 

[drkitten]

I have no problem with that concept. One doesn't have to be a Jew, though, to "keep the Sabbath", so to speak.

Um,.... you are aware, aren't you, that "sabbath" is a Jewish custom that the rest of the world has borrowed from it.

One doesn't need to be Jewish to keep the Sabbath, but the whole idea of a "weekend" is an extension of that particular custom.

It's how a Jew chooses to live the "life" part of such balance, or rather the lengths he'll go to to refrain from "working" that I find peculiar, though. BTW - don't Jews get weekends and holiday entitlements, like the rest of us?

Yeah, funny thing that. How many weekends and holiday "entitlements" do you really get? At least where I live and work, it's a routine practice for employers to demand various sorts of commitments on weekends and holidays. You picked a bad week to ask that question, actually. This Saturday, I have to deliver a set of talks at a university several time zones away, and I don't get back until Monday morning. I think my sweetie is supposed to spend the weekend crunching numbers and running financials, because the government only now gave the necessary budget figures that they were supposed to deliver three months ago.

And this is in the supposedly "enlightened" 20th century, where we do have laws restricting the length of the work week. In the first millenium BCE, there were no such laws. Gentiles had no weekend or holiday entitlements at all. In that sense, what we as secular society have done is given the Jewish religious requirement the force of law.....

 

[Southwind17]

Not to rag on you, but “mental retardation” was, in fact, a term you introduced into the debate

Not to rag on you (whatever that means!), but I think you'll really find, in fact, that this (Post #95) was the introduction:

I find it a sign of mental retardation with certain atheists that fail to comprehend that those who are religious observant actually give a hoot about what atheists think of them. [emboldening added]

It doesn't require a psychologist to identify mental retardation, only an IQ number (many of my observant friends are fiercely, demonstrably intelligent -- ivy league Ph.D.s, M.D.s, the works). Nonetheless, it sounds like you're disavowing the term, so we're all good here.

I'm not sure IQ is a measure of all of one's mental faculties, is it? Genuine question - you might well be right.

This is the heart of the matter for me. I don't think the mistake of the Jew is in going well out of their way to follow a set of seemingly irrational laws to achieve a consistent world view. The mistake is in believing there's a spiritual realm in the first place.

It's a single, fundamental error -- asserting a vast facet of existence without evidence -- and some lesser associated errors -- believing that existence is governed by Biblical rules.

So how illogical is it to believe in a spiritual realm? Thoroughly. But once you believe in it, following its laws -- however bizarre -- is less so.

Good point, and I'm inclined to agree with you. To this mentally balanced mortal, though, I find it odd that the observance of such bizarre laws doesn't lead such observer to apply some degree of critical analysis, if not logic, to his behaviour and at least question the sense in it, and hence whether the underlying driver actually has any real credibility. I guess religious blindness simply takes precedence.

Um,.... you are aware, aren't you, that "sabbath" is a Jewish custom that the rest of the world has borrowed from it.

Well, I am now (I have no reason to doubt you), but I wasn't. I suppose that's what comes of not having a religious gene in my make up and assuming that weekends are weekends simply because they always have been and, for me, have no religious conotation (not to mention that they seem to make perfect physiological sense - depending on how hard one works!)

One doesn't need to be Jewish to keep the Sabbath, but the whole idea of a "weekend" is an extension of that particular custom.

Let's hope it gets extended further!

And this is in the supposedly "enlightened" 20th century, where we do have laws restricting the length of the work week. In the first millenium BCE, there were no such laws. Gentiles had no weekend or holiday entitlements at all. In that sense, what we as secular society have done is given the Jewish religious requirement the force of law.....

Let's hear it for the Jews! Yay!

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

I'm not sure IQ is a measure of all of one's mental faculties, is it? Genuine question - you might well be right.

You're right, one can have all kinds of mental aberrations and still have a high IQ. Which is one of the reasons I object to using religion as evidence of mental retardation (with apologies for accusing you of originating the idea here.)

Good point, and I'm inclined to agree with you. To this mentally balanced mortal, though, I find it odd that the observance of such bizarre laws doesn't lead such observer to apply some degree of critical analysis, if not logic, to his behaviour and at least question the sense in it, and hence whether the underlying driver actually has any real credibility. I guess religious blindness simply takes precedence.

That's what makes religion so interesting to me. The psychology. It may not tell us much about the ultimate realities of the universe, but it reveals volumes about us mortals.

 

[drkitten]

I'm not sure IQ is a measure of all of one's mental faculties, is it? Genuine question - you might well be right.

That's a very controversial question, but not really relevant in this instance.

While IQ doesn't, for example, measure mental "stability" (you can have a high IQ and be stark raving bonkers, as witnessed by John Nash), it does measure mental "retardation." This is because mental retardation is defined (more or less) by IQ scores.

In the same way that you can be a good athlete without being a fast runner (because there are types of athleticism that don't involve running), but you cant be a good sprinter without being a fast runner (because sprint performance is defined by running speed).

 

[Meadmaker]

To this mentally balanced mortal,

Mighty confident, aren't you?

though, I find it odd that the observance of such bizarre laws doesn't lead such observer to apply some degree of critical analysis, if not logic, to his behaviour and at least question the sense in it, and hence whether the underlying driver actually has any real credibility. I guess religious blindness simply takes precedence.

Sort of. A topic that has been touched upon in this thread is the internal consistency of most religious worldviews. From the outside, something looks bizarre and full of contradictions, but from the inside, it's completely consistent. Skeptics often fail to understand that.

People manage to lead good, happy, fulfilled, productive, lives despite being observant Jews. They couldn't do that if their actions were truly bizarre. The religious "blindness" is actually a symptom of a completely different way of looking at things. They are coming from a perspective of "If something works, don't fix it." Their lives and religion work well for them, so there's no reason for them to focus on whether or not their religion is actually "right".

 

[Southwind17]

That's what makes religion so interesting to me. The psychology. It may not tell us much about the ultimate realities of the universe, but it reveals volumes about us mortals.

You speak for yourself mate!

Mighty confident, aren't you?

When one is mentally balanced one can afford to be confident, maybe even mighty confident, if one is extremely mentally balanced!

A topic that has been touched upon in this thread is the internal consistency of most religious worldviews. From the outside, something looks bizarre and full of contradictions, but from the inside, it's completely consistent. Skeptics often fail to understand that.

Yes - and you know what I think the inside of god botherers' minds look like, so it's hardly surprising such people will find consistency. How could they possibly not?! "Outside". That's an interesting synonym for "the point of view of a rational observer" or "skeptic".

People manage to lead good, happy, fulfilled, productive, lives despite being observant Jews. They couldn't do that if their actions were truly bizarre.

"Truly bizarre" as distinct from what - "plain old vanilla bizarre"? You wouldn't happen to be Scottish would you?

The religious "blindness" is actually a symptom of a completely different way of looking at things. They are coming from a perspective of "If something works, don't fix it."

You mean like praying for a cancer cure, for example?!

Their lives and religion work well for them, so there's no reason for them to focus on whether or not their religion is actually "right".

... or whether other people's religion (or indeed lack of) is too?