UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

Status
Not open for further replies.
Getting to your main subject the Mexican Video.

Before I comment I would just like to state that I have only viewed the video and only read the following objections posted by StevenCalder and I entirely agree with Sanio: “Be suspicious of anonymous reports. Note oddities in the case; here, a daylight sighting of a huge craft in one of the most crowded cities in the world, but no witnesses until after televising the video.”

HOWEVER, there are some things about Klass' reporting of Sanio’s objections that, on face value, seem incongruous. For example Klaas states:

“…as the cameraman panned (seemingly) to follow the motion of the UFO there was expected smearing of the imagery of the apartment buildings in the foreground. But there was no corresponding smearing of the UFO imagery. “This indicates the UFO wasn’t in the video when the camera was shaking, but was added later,” according to Sainio.”

Well that is just plain incorrect. There is obvious pixilation of both the UFO and the buildings as the camera pans. Even the term “smearing” shows that the author (Klass) if not the investigator is not particularly familiar with common terminology used in photographic analysis.

It MUST be noted that to obtain the same degree of altering pixilation seen on both buildings and the UFO similarly would require an incredible amount of time and effort to produce - and Sainio seems to acknowledge that “…considerable effort was required by the hoaxer to superimpose the UFO imagery on the background.”

Note however the use of the word “was”. THAT is a categorical. A truly scientific investigator would NEVER use such a term. Scientists are very careful and precise in their use of language. They NEVER (if they can help it) use terms that the evidence does not warrant, yet here we have Sanio using the term “was required by the hoaxer” instead of the more correct terminology such as “would have been required by a hoaxer”. There is a world of difference and it indicates that Sanio had his mind already made up even while he was supposing to investigate this film.

I know that this will seem like “nitpicking” or playing with language to achieve the result one is aiming at - but believe me, I am a trained scientist and peer-reviewed published author in scientific journals and EVERY editorial comment I ever got in reply to my early submissions was to ALWAYS point out the very things I point out above. Editorial boards of scientific publications are fully aware of the critical nature of language use and semantics in such matters and if it is pertinent to them - it really should be pertinent to us as all.

Klass further contends:

“Another indication: as the camera pans, the viewing (aspect) angle to the buildings changes slightly (1.6 deg.) and should change similarly with respect to the UFO, but it does not, according to Sainio. This is difficult to detect because of the wobbling motion of the UFO.”

Now what on earth does this objection actually mean? I think that Klass has not quite understood what Sanio was actually saying. We have no way of knowing from Klass’ assessment what Sanio actually meant. The ONLY way to resolve the issue is to view Sanio’s original research. Does anyone actually know where we can do that…a link perhaps…

Finally Klass states:

“A third indication of a hoax: the altitude of the UFO, measured relative to protuberances of the nearby building, changes differently than it should if caused solely by camera “bounce” during panning.”

Now Klass does not attribute this objection to Sanio. Has Klass made it up for himself? Again we can not know until we have viewed Sanio’s original report.

So we see that what we REALLY need to do is go back to Sanio’s original report on the matter. Klass is clearly not quite accurate in his reporting of Sanio and moreover we cannot be sure if he has not even added an assessment of his own.

Thus we should NOT take this article seriously UNTIL we see the original research.

Now I DO note that Astrophotographer has referenced other links articles? I will need to look at them before making a further assessment.
 
I know that this will seem like “nitpicking” or playing with language to achieve the result one is aiming at - but believe me, I am a trained scientist and peer-reviewed published author in scientific journals...

Putting aside the hand-wavy rest of the post.

This jumped out at me :)

You were only a published author in the previous thread.

ETA: (psst It might be an idea before basing all you objections on a miss understanding of the term "smearing" and your claimed veracity of the reporting, to actually read the source in question, I Did! Otherwise you might look a bit silly.)
 
Last edited:
I have just realised something. We actually are NOT ready to move beyond my first contention that “UFOs exist.”

Something has been bothering me about various people’s statements to the effect that “Everybody agrees that UFOs exist” or “Nobody is arguing that UFOs don’t exist”.

There was a certain sense in which these were false statements, yet if I stated directly it was not true that people held those views I would be shouted down so vigorously that it seemed that people really believed the statements to be true.

{snipped crappy UFO categorization, and some blah blah)


Then it hit me. People were saying that UFOs existed, but they were really NOT believing it. What they WERE believing was that UFOs existed ONLY because a mundane explanation had not been thought of at the time of examination of the report!That is the researchers were not thorough enough or simply did not have enough information at the time!

What people REALLY believed in was that UFOs are UNKOWN for now, but really all of then would have a mundane explanation if only all the information was available. And THIS is not the same as accepting UFOs as truly UNKNOWN.

And THIS is why people wanted to add their extra “Previously classified UNKNOWN but now KNOWN” speculative category and this is why people objected even to the UNKNOWN category outright.

People were saying “Oh yes, I believe UFOs exist – but only to the extent that they have yet to be classified as mundane"!


Somehow, I knew this was coming.

I knew you wouldn't happy with all of us agreeing with you that a specific sighting be safely labeled "UFO". You aren't happy with that because we skeptics have a classical definition of the term "UFO" and you have different one, and you need to make us understand that a UFO isn't just merely a flying object that can't be positively identified. That's what you came here to do, isn't it?

I think you had a very good idea of what this thread was going to be like before you started it, and it can't be going according to plan. So far, your many arguments have indicated that you expected us to disagree with you about the ultimate classification of "UFO" or "case closed". You anticipated that we would positively conclude the craft was one thing or another and all be in perfect harmonious agreement; you'd then launch your "double standards", "saying something is so doesn't make it so" and your "you can't prove it is, so it isn't" arguments, which all turned out to be very poor strawmen.

So I'll save you some time. All the rest of the sightings in your OP....we'll probably conclude the same thing about them too - UFOs. So what is it really all about? If you're trying to redefine the term "UFO" to something more befitting of your arguments - then good luck, I'm getting off here.

If not, and you want to provide some evidence, hard evidence, that these UFO's are exotic in nature, please start doing so...
 
Last edited:
Putting aside the hand-wavy rest of the post.

This jumped out at me :)

You were only a published author in the previous thread.

ETA: (psst It might be an idea before basing all you objections on a miss understanding of the term "smearing" and your claimed veracity of the reporting, to actually read the source in question, I Did! Otherwise you might look a bit silly.)

He got better.
 
Before I say anything else I'd like to echo this sentiment. I have been so far impressed with Snidely's conduct in this and the previous thread, we may not always agree but he has not ever reduced the tone or honesty of discussion.

And I have bucket loads of respect for someone who can retain a flexible and open position in a room of dissenting positions than those who turn to stone. I hope I could do the same, but I'm obviously always right about everything so I will never get to know :whistling



When Carl Sagan said 'Extraordinary' it is referring specifically to the Scientific view point, which is what I presume you are trying to get validated by. Whether or not a tribe in New Guinea think UFO's are likely to be of Alien origin or that radios work by Black Magic or Radio Waves is besides the point, unless they operate those inquiry's by scientific scepticism.

Obviously if your not looking to get validated by the sceptical methods of science, then we don't even need to talk about evidence. Just book some slots on day time TV and go wild :D

Just to be clear, if you have validating evidence, and people are still not accepting your theory that is not scepticism, we call those people pseudo-sceptics: ie GW Deniers, Holocaust Deniers etc These people often need a bump on the noggin in my honest opinion.



Getting to your main subject the Mexican Video. I've now had a chance and watched the video through a good many times, and read the articles you linked. I'm sorry to say I have to join the chorus and say I found it very unconvincing and the discussion you linked seemed almost mad. Setting aside the story for the moment as TjW has expanded on the obvious red flags there. I will quote Astrophotographer's links which will be able to describe the technical problems which pretty much make it a forgone conclusion that this was a fake far more eloquently than I. And for those who don't want to dig through the entire of that page :)



The PDF Astrophotographer links is what the article above references and goes into far more detail. Including how the above inconsistencies were confirmed by specifically written software. The results seem relatively unambiguous.

I'd like to take this time to post a very interesting link which gives another view on the supposed 'smear' in regards the Mexico City video...

http://www.brumac.8k.com/MexCityAug697/MexCtySmearAnalysis.html

I'd be very interested to hear opinions on the analysis, as it appears quite thorough, at least to this untrained eye...
 
Last edited:
My apologies to all, but I will be away from the site for several days, and will most likely be unable to post.

I look forward to re-engaging with you upon my return.

Snidely W
 
I know that this will seem like “nitpicking” or playing with language to achieve the result one is aiming at - but believe me, I am a trained scientist and peer-reviewed published author in scientific journals and EVERY editorial comment I ever got in reply to my early submissions was to ALWAYS point out the very things I point out above. Editorial boards of scientific publications are fully aware of the critical nature of language use and semantics in such matters and if it is pertinent to them - it really should be pertinent to us as all.


Speaking of extraordinary claims.....don't mean this as an attack, but I find this hard to believe and I wouldn't be a proper skepitic if I took this latest claim at face value.

Evidence?
 
Somehow, I knew this was coming.

Interesting. How could you have known it was coming if it had not been raised as an issue previously somewhere, sometime?

I knew you wouldn't happy with all of us agreeing with you that a specific sighting be safely labeled "UFO". You aren't happy with that because we skeptics have a classical definition of the term "UFO" and you have different one, and you need to make us understand that a UFO isn't just merely a flying object that can't be positively identified. That's what you came here to do, isn't it?

But you are plainly NOT agreeing with me. Correct me if I am wrong but when I say UFO I mean an “UNKNOWN” object. Full stop. When You say UFO you mean an unknown object that WOULD have a mundane definition if either the investigation was more thorough or new evidence came to light.

THAT I contend is the difference between “us” and it puts us in disagreement about what a UFO actually is. Do you deny this contention?

I think you had a very good idea of what this thread was going to be like before you started it, and it can't be going according to plan. So far, your many arguments have indicated that you expected us to disagree with you about the ultimate classification of "UFO" or "case closed". You anticipated that we would positively conclude the craft was one thing or another and all be in perfect harmonious agreement; you'd then launch your "double standards", "saying something is so doesn't make it so" and your "you can't prove it is, so it isn't" arguments, which all turned out to be very poor strawmen.

First, I DO expect to reach some consensus, otherwise what on earth would be my motivation for being here…? Of course I expected there to be objections to accepting UFOs exist…and I was right, but soon the argument shifted subtly to “Well, actually, you know, we really agree with you.” And it was THIS shift that initially puzzled me… until I realised that our definitions of UFO were conceptually worlds apart. For me, a UFO is categorised as such on the EXISTING evidence. For you a UFO is classified as such only with the caveat that future research or information would explain them all as mundane. See the difference?

So I'll save you some time. All the rest of the sightings in your OP....we'll probably conclude the same thing about them too - UFOs. So what is it really all about? If you're trying to redefine the term "UFO" to something more befitting of your arguments - then good luck, I'm getting off here.

So you simply deny that my arguments might have any affect on the way you think about or approach the subject and that I suggest represents a closed mind. It really is that starkly simple. Perhaps then you are better off “out of here”, because in your terms you will not be able to contribute anything to the debate beyond your initial contentions.

If not, and you want to provide some evidence, hard evidence, that these UFO's are exotic in nature, please start doing so...

But I have been doing so… there are a number of cases I have placed on the table (so to speak) that I argue support my contentions (shrugs). Perhaps you would like to address those cases?
 
Speaking of extraordinary claims.....don't mean this as an attack, but I find this hard to believe and I wouldn't be a proper skepitic if I took this latest claim at face value.

Evidence?

Indeed, you are correct. But I cannot provide that evidence without "blowing my cover" so to speak and inviting you all into my home and my workplace and THAT is something I am NOT about to do at this point, given the nature of some of the posts I have been the object of here in this forum. Perhaps if you had all "played nice" I might have considered it ... but as it stands... no thanks.

So I guess you will just have to take my word for it, and if not, I am not going to argue the point. It really matters not, I was simply trying to allow people to understand that I was speaking from experience when I talked about the policy of editorial boards of peer-reviewed publications. I suppose I could link to those policies at the journals in question, but all are expensive subscription services, and while usually a general editorial policy is publicly available, their specific detailed policies are usually not...

So, indeed you are correct to be skeptical, as I would also be skeptical of such a claim if I was in your in your position.
 
I'd like to take this time to post a very interesting link which gives another view on the supposed 'smear' in regards the Mexico City video...

http://www.brumac.8k.com/MexCityAug697/MexCtySmearAnalysis.html

I'd be very interested to hear opinions on the analysis, as it appears quite thorough, at least to this untrained eye...

Now that's what I call research. Dr. Maccabee has conducted a thorough analysis and presented his evidence and results and these directly contradict what Klass on Sanio was contending.

Indeed, I too would like to hear what others think of that research.

Dr. Maccabee's research report also contradicts one of my own earlier assertions about the terminology used in the assessment of this video in this video. I preferred the term "pixelation" over "smear". Clearly however, researchers were talking about in in terms of "smear" but the terms are somewhat confusing. Dr. Maccabee tries to get around it by using "smear/blur/diffuseness" as a single term. I can also see now how my term might not be entirely accurate either. I guess this points out the value of reading the actual research reports and not relying on second hand assessments such as those by Klass etc. to make judgement calls.

Anyway, I DO stand corrected and must retract that part of my objection above in consequence.
 
Interesting. How could you have known it was coming if it had not been raised as an issue previously somewhere, sometime?

Intuition? Nahhh...call it experience.


But you are plainly NOT agreeing with me. Correct me if I am wrong but when I say UFO I mean an “UNKNOWN” object. Full stop. When You say UFO you mean an unknown object that WOULD have a mundane definition if either the investigation was more thorough or new evidence came to light.
When I said we agreed, I was using a standard definition of the term UFO. You have a different definition of what a UFO is...so maybe we need to stop using this particular epithet for the purposes of this thread. But you need to understand that the current definition of a UFO does indeed include the possibility that the object is mundane in nature. From good 'ole Wikipedia:

"Studies have established that the majority of UFOs are observations of some real but conventional object—most commonly aircraft, balloons, or astronomical objects such as meteors or bright planets—that have been misidentified by the observer as anomalies while a small percentage of reported UFOs are hoaxes.[4] Only a small percentage of reported sightings (usually 5 to 20%) can be classified as unidentified flying objects in the strictest sense (see below for some studies)."

THAT I contend is the difference between “us” and it puts us in disagreement about what a UFO actually is. Do you deny this contention?
I guess ya got me there.


First, I DO expect to reach some consensus, otherwise what on earth would be my motivation for being here…? Of course I expected there to be objections to accepting UFOs exist…and I was right, but soon the argument shifted subtly to “Well, actually, you know, we really agree with you.” And it was THIS shift that initially puzzled me… until I realised that our definitions of UFO were conceptually worlds apart. For me, a UFO is categorised as such on the EXISTING evidence. For you a UFO is classified as such only with the caveat that future research or information would explain them all as mundane. See the difference?
Strawman highlighthed. Please stop arguing this way.

There was no shift; we've said from the start that you shouldn't be hoping for these cases to be resolved in this thread. We've admitted that the Rogue River UFO can still be safely classified as a UFO.

So you simply deny that my arguments might have any affect on the way you think about or approach the subject and that I suggest represents a closed mind. It really is that starkly simple. Perhaps then you are better off “out of here”, because in your terms you will not be able to contribute anything to the debate beyond your initial contentions.
Not at all, I'd be ecstatic to see some evidence of extra-terrestrial life. You haven't put forth any. Don't expect anyone here to impressed by grainy pictures, fakes, hoaxes and anecdotes.


But I have been doing so… there are a number of cases I have placed on the table (so to speak) that I argue support my contentions (shrugs). Perhaps you would like to address those cases?
None which provide an acceptable level of evidence. Surely, you understand by now how unimpressed we are with anecdotes of flying saucers.
 

Hi Astrophotographer -

I have now looked at the original Sanio article.

Two quick points, first I think Dr. Maccabees research refutes the "blurriness" objections raised by Sanio. Second , I note that Sanio contends he has used "custom software not publicly available" to analyse the images...therefore we simply have to take his word for the accuracy or veracity of his research.

This is a critical and telling point. For if the research is not REPEATABLE under scientific conditions, then we must reject the results. You would do this for any research presented by me. I expect you to adhere to the same rules when the roles are switched.

I therefore contend this research by "Sanio" to be first at least in part refuted by further research by Maccabee and second in for the the rest of the report - unverifiable. Thus we must reject the conclusions and move on.

Any other objections to the video. So far it is pretty compelling...
 
But you are plainly NOT agreeing with me. Correct me if I am wrong but when I say UFO I mean an “UNKNOWN” object. Full stop. When You say UFO you mean an unknown object that WOULD have a mundane definition if either the investigation was more thorough or new evidence came to light.

THAT I contend is the difference between “us” and it puts us in disagreement about what a UFO actually is. Do you deny this contention?

Rramjet, I think your reasoning behind this assertion (as well as your former, longer post on the topic) is indeed very interesting. I wouldn't call it a straw man like Gord did. But the way you present it here makes it seem like such. Gladly, I'm prone to think the best of people and so I won't let how it seems to be be an obstacle in trying to understand what you actually mean...

...and I think I do understand. I think you might be right in regard to some posters here (I'll definitely allow myself to be corrected if I'm wrong). As for myself I can only assure you it ain't so. My definition of UFO is the same as yours. The only difference between us seems to be that I want to keep the possibility of a mundane explanation as an option at all times.

This is how I personally interpret most skeptics' views here as well.

For me, a UFO is categorised as such on the EXISTING evidence. For you a UFO is classified as such only with the caveat that future research or information would explain them all as mundane. See the difference?

I see the difference but don't agree on the highlited part being a 'caveat'. I think keeping a mundane option possible at all times is simply the most honest and objective and position as possible. With our knowledge of the world it is most of the time (as shown by all the cases of IFOs) also the correct position.

Anyway, at this point I'd like to quote SnidleyW.

My apologies to all, but I will be away from the site for several days, and will most likely be unable to post.

I look forward to re-engaging with you upon my return.

So thanks for now and 'meet' you in a few days!

:jedi:
:)
 
Indeed, you are correct. But I cannot provide that evidence without "blowing my cover" so to speak and inviting you all into my home and my workplace and THAT is something I am NOT about to do at this point, given the nature of some of the posts I have been the object of here in this forum. Perhaps if you had all "played nice" I might have considered it ... but as it stands... no thanks.

So I guess you will just have to take my word for it, and if not, I am not going to argue the point. It really matters not, I was simply trying to allow people to understand that I was speaking from experience when I talked about the policy of editorial boards of peer-reviewed publications. I suppose I could link to those policies at the journals in question, but all are expensive subscription services, and while usually a general editorial policy is publicly available, their specific detailed policies are usually not...

So, indeed you are correct to be skeptical, as I would also be skeptical of such a claim if I was in your in your position.


I respect your privacy and wouldn't dream of demanding that you reveal your credentials if you don't wish them to be known, but....when you make that sort of claim, one which boosts your credibility and allows you to speak as an authority - except to have demands that you back it up. Just some friendly advice.
 
Intuition? Nahhh...call it experience.

You do realise you have just admitted the veracity of my original contention…


When I said we agreed, I was using a standard definition of the term UFO. You have a different definition of what a UFO is...so maybe we need to stop using this particular epithet for the purposes of this thread. But you need to understand that the current definition of a UFO does indeed include the possibility that the object is mundane in nature. From good 'ole
Wikipedia:

At first you say that we both have the same definition of UFO and then in the very next sentence you say the difference is exactly as I said it was between us!

And PLEASE don’t quote Wikipedia to me for definitions: Wikipedia is a glorified gossip site. The information might be correct, equally it could be wildly inaccurate. It just depends on who has the greatest resources to post what they want their own opinions to represent up there.

"Studies have established that the majority of UFOs are observations of some real but conventional object—most commonly aircraft, balloons, or astronomical objects such as meteors or bright planets—that have been misidentified by the observer as anomalies while a small percentage of reported UFOs are hoaxes.[4] Only a small percentage of reported sightings (usually 5 to 20%) can be classified as unidentified flying objects in the strictest sense (see below for some studies)."

Umm are you returning to the argument: All UFOs I have seen so far are mundane, therefore all UFOs can be explained that way (if only the research were better or more information were available)? Please don’t tell me you are doing that.

Remember the All crows are black fallacy? I thought we were past that.

I stated:
For you a UFO is classified as such only with the caveat that future research or information would explain them all as mundane. See the difference?

Strawman highlighthed. Please stop arguing this way.

Please stop arguing this way? Umm, if the argument fits… do you actually deny that the contention is not a correct representation of what you DO believe?

Not at all, I'd be ecstatic to see some evidence of extra-terrestrial life. You haven't put forth any. Don't expect anyone here to impressed by grainy pictures, fakes, hoaxes and anecdotes.

But there is your beliefs writ large. You simply deny that there is evidence at all. You think all UFO pictures are “grainy” (an old debunker fallacy). You categorise the eyewitness testimony as “fakes, hoaxes and anecdotes” yet there are many that are neither faked or hoaxed. Many reports are not strictly anecdotes either. Some a sworn testimony. I realise this is a fine point. However the real point is that in usng such dismissive language as you do you deny that “anecdotes” are useful to us in any terms. Quite plainly they ARE useful to us… and moreover you imply that you simply do NOT believe UFOs exist. Then you cap it off with:

None which provide an acceptable level of evidence. Surely, you understand by now how unimpressed we are with anecdotes of flying saucers.

But that is merely your own opinion based on your own pre-determined belief system. I would have thought that a true skeptic, a true critical thinker might not talk in such dismissive terms. You MIGHT be wrong. There REMAINS that possibility. And while that possibility remains, you should be willing to at least look at the evidence I present and comment directly on how you think your objections relate to it. Otherwise ...Yes, you guessed it …merely stating it IS so, does not MAKE it so.
 
I respect your privacy and wouldn't dream of demanding that you reveal your credentials if you don't wish them to be known, but....when you make that sort of claim, one which boosts your credibility and allows you to speak as an authority - except to have demands that you back it up. Just some friendly advice.

Sure. Point taken.
 
Rramjet, I think your reasoning behind this assertion (as well as your former, longer post on the topic) is indeed very interesting.

(...)

My definition of UFO is the same as yours. The only difference between us seems to be that I want to keep the possibility of a mundane explanation as an option at all times.

Yes indeed. ALL possibilities must be kept open though, not just the mundane. For UNKNOWN is just that. We CAN legitimately hypothesise about what the UNKNOWNS might actually represent, but to be willing to hypothesise ONLY mundane explanations is not scientific, nor does it reflect an open minded critical approach. (not saying this is your position, just a general reflection)


I see the difference but don't agree on the highlited part being a 'caveat'. I think keeping a mundane option possible at all times is simply the most honest and objective and position as possible. With our knowledge of the world it is most of the time (as shown by all the cases of IFOs) also the correct position.

This is getting awfully close to the all crows are black fallacy. I am not sure you have been around for that particular little thorn in the side... just quickly

"All the crows I have seen are black:
Therefore all crows are black"
... is a fallacy. Moreover the insertion of words like "likely" to be black, or "probably" are black... does not help avoid the fallacy because these terms (value judgements presuppose that we know the limits of the likilihood range. Probability is a strange beast. If the toss of a coin has revealed five heads in a row, many people would be inclined to bet a more on a tail coming up next. But this would be incorrect. A fallacy. The odds remain exactly as they were, 50/50. The same could apply for UFOs. We simply do not know the true odds well enough to make a judgement call on the likelihood of whether sightings will be mundane or not.

Anyway, at this point I'd like to quote SnidleyW.
So thanks for now and 'meet' you in a few days!

:jedi:
:)

Echo the sentiment. Happy holidays SnidelyW!
 
Just when I thought you were coming around....the (lack of)reading comprehension and strawmen strike again.


At first you say that we both have the same definition of UFO and then in the very next sentence you say the difference is exactly as I said it was between us!
Where did I say that? Please quote it and highlight it.


Umm are you returning to the argument: All UFOs I have seen so far are mundane, therefore all UFOs can be explained that way (if only the research were better or more information were available)? Please don’t tell me you are doing that.
Where did I say that? Please quote and highlight it.


Remember the All crows are black fallacy? I thought we were past that.
Me too..


Please stop arguing this way? Umm, if the argument fits… do you actually deny that the contention is not a correct representation of what you DO believe?
No, it's not. Do you know something about my beliefs that I don't?


But there is your beliefs writ large. You simply deny that there is evidence at all. You think all UFO pictures are “grainy” (an old debunker fallacy). You categorise the eyewitness testimony as “fakes, hoaxes and anecdotes” yet there are many that are neither faked or hoaxed. Many reports are not strictly anecdotes either. Some a sworn testimony. I realise this is a fine point. However the real point is that in usng such dismissive language as you do you deny that “anecdotes” are useful to us in any terms. Quite plainly they ARE useful to us… and moreover you imply that you simply do NOT believe UFOs exist. Then you cap it off with:
Since you seem to know more about my beliefs than I do, let me let you know where I think I stand on the issue. Let me know where I'm wrong, ok? :rolleyes:

I believe there are UFO's.
I believe most to be easily explainable.
I believe there are some which will remain a mystery.
I believe some are fake, hoaxed, or highly embellished accounts.
I believe that most people reporting UFO's are sincere in their belief of what they saw.
I believe that physical evidence trumps eyewitness accounts.
I do believe that there is extra-terrestrial life somewhere in the universe, but...
I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to prove the existence of extra-terrestrial UFO's having visited earth.

But that is merely your own opinion based on your own pre-determined belief system. I would have thought that a true skeptic, a true critical thinker might not talk in such dismissive terms. You MIGHT be wrong. There REMAINS that possibility. And while that possibility remains, you should be willing to at least look at the evidence I present and comment directly on how you think your objections relate to it. Otherwise ...Yes, you guessed it …merely stating it IS so, does not MAKE it so.
It's not a belief system. It's called having high standards of evidence. I've looked at your evidence, it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. I realize that I might be wrong, and that aliens have visited earth in spacecraft, but I've seen no strong evidence that it's happened. I'm not saying it absoluetely hasn't happened or cannot happen...it's all about the evidence. So, I guess if you insist on calling it a belief system, you can consider me an agnostic on the issue. I'm open to evidence and I'd love for nothing more to see proof of alien life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom