Noam Chomsky - Right Wing Media = Nazis

[Fiona]

Again with that platitude?

If you do not believe that is true then can you explain why it is false please?

 

[Fiona]

All of this could lead to anything else as well. One could easily apply that list to any ideology, and make it look like its final destination could be the possible rise of communism in the USA, or the possible rise of Islam, etc. Nothing in that list is intrinsically a characteristic of nazism.

It depends on who is "connecting the dots". Here, it's Chomsky, but someone like Limbaugh could use that same list and come up with an entirely different outcome.

It's just fear mongering.

It could lead to a great many things, yes. I do not see where he says it could not. He does not say it will lead to nazism and I do not think that is what he means. I think Praktik has covered this in his post # 38 above. I think we do need to look at the ideological characteristics of totalitarian movements ( and I mean all totalitarian movements) so that we can better recognise them when they come along: and I think we do need to consider what conditions lead to their rise to power - that is why a hard look at Weimar Germany is helpful, though it is not the only place we can look.

Chomsky is addressing the latter question. He may be right in his analysis or he may be wrong: that is a matter for reasoned debate, as Praktik shows. But I do not accept it is fear mongering

 

[Brainster]

Chomsky's a dolt about current politics, just as he's a dolt about history:

Germany in the 1920s was at the peak of Western civilization. A decade later, it was at the pits of human history.

Yeah, the Weimar Republic sure was the pinnacle, assuming you were a wheelbarrow maker, since the people needed wheelbarrows to cart around the cash needed to buy a loaf of bread.

 

[Toke]

Umberto Eco made a list of characteristics of fascism.

http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

 

[Arcade22]

Umberto Eco made a list of characteristics of fascism.

http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

Strange, the Fascists i have spoken too wouldn't fit his definition...strange indeed.

 

[Travis]

So:
Is he wrong about there being widespread dissatisfaction?

No. I note that last night, again, Megan Fox did not appear and offer herself to me. Also my car is not an Aston Martin DB9. I'm very dissatisfied. My neighbor, he wants a bigger swimming pool. He's dissatisfied too.

Is he wrong in thinking that many people feel that neither of the existing parties will solve their problems?

I checked both the Democrats and Republicans for a "Get Travis some celebrity T&A with an imported luxury touring coupe" platform but came up empty. Same with the Libertarians, Green Party, Constitutional Party, LaRouche Fanatics, Farmers United Chicken Feed Party and the Moonies. It seems no one can help!

Is he wrong in thinking that where people are disillusioned in that way they are apt to look for alternative, often simplistic solutions?

The Travis for Booty and Horsepower Party will solve all my our problems!

Is he wrong to say that at least some of the right (and left) offer such solutions?

Some guy with no nose, wearing a hood and bearing ten horns says he'll totally fund my party!

Is he wrong to say that this is worrying?

Only if you oppose the dark lord.

Is he wrong to say that such a situation has led to bad consequences in the past?

Denying Travis 469 Horsepower @6000 RPM and 34-22-32 vixens has been known to wipe out entire species!

Is he wrong to think that drawing attention to aspects of a process might itself help to reinforce those factors which are protective for society

Watching Travis and various allied evil powers form a new party is actually kinda dull.

Is he wrong to think that it is reasonable to look for reasoned argument as to why the situation is not one which could lead to a rise in totalitarianism of whatever stripe?

Totalitarianism is our goal!

I don't think he is

My point is that

1) People are always dissatisfied, especially in materialistic societies
2) People are always casting the "other side" as more evil and caustic than they really are
and 3) Hyperbole does not help solve what real problems there are.

 

[Fiona]

Ah ok. So your point is that deep dissatisfaction is not a factor in the rise of totalitarianism

What factors do play a part, do you think?

 

[Pardalis]

If you do not believe that is true then can you explain why it is false please?

On the contrary, it's so true that it really is meaningless and dull to repeat it. That's what a platitude is.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Chomsky's a dolt about current politics, just as he's a dolt about history:

Yeah, the Weimar Republic sure was the pinnacle, assuming you were a wheelbarrow maker, since the people needed wheelbarrows to cart around the cash needed to buy a loaf of bread.

Check your facts. The period of hyperinflation ended in 1923. The republic saw great cultural (if not political) growth after that. It wasn't until 1933 that Hitler was able to get the Enabling Act passed, which is usually seen as the end of the Weimar Republic.

 

[Bill Thompson]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/oh-boy-noam-chomsky-compares-right-wing-media-to-nazis/

"Speaking to the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco, he alluded to right-wing media as “substantive content — crazy content, but it does give answers,” and warned that if Americans weren’t properly educated about what was really happening to them, they could be in for a repeat of the Nazi takeover of Germany in the 1930s"


So, Nazis are going to take over Germany again because of Right Wing radio in the US?

I always thought this guy was out of the playing field of reason. He said we earned and deserved 9-11-2001.

 

[Travis]

Ah ok. So your point is that deep dissatisfaction is not a factor in the rise of totalitarianism

No, it is a factor. It's just that saying the dissatisfaction in the US, at present, is on the same level as the kind you get when faced with famine, disease, threats of invasion and a mega economic depression is wrong.

What factors do play a part, do you think?

Famine, disease, threats of invasion and mega-economic depressions can cause people to panic and embrace totalitarianism of one type or another.

 

[applecorped]

I always thought this guy was out of the playing field of reason. He said we earned and deserved 9-11-2001.

He did?

 

[applecorped]

No, it is a factor. It's just that saying the dissatisfaction in the US, at present, is on the same level as the kind you get when faced with famine, disease, threats of invasion and a mega economic depression is wrong.



Famine, disease, threats of invasion and mega-economic depressions can cause people to panic and embrace totalitarianism of one type or another.

'Ohhhhhh, we're half way there
Oh, Oh, livin' on a prayer'

Bon Jovi

 

[Sporanox]

You have completely misunderstood what he is saying if you think he is accusing the jews and Bolsheviks. Listen to it again (around 2 mins 30 in the video).

Nothing of the sort was asserted. He compared the current political climate to the atmosphere that served as a culture to Nazism. There is a reason he mentioned the Nazis.

It is highly irresponsible.

 

[†= Crap!]

I don't believe what Chomsky said was "highly irresponsible". He drew an offhand analogy that he himself stated wasn't really a close one and not to be pushed too far.

This is obviously just my (and Chomskys) political bias, but I believe if America was ever to shift into a more authoritarian/totalitarian politics it would be the far-right doing it and the likes of Beck/Limbaugh/Coulter would probably be the cheerleaders for it.

That's not to say that the right wing in American politics is equivalent or even comparable to the Nazies. Just that if there is one faction in American politics that I would be particularly weary of leading us down the road to totalitarianism it's the right-wing fanatics and their media cheerleaders.

But again, that's obviously my political bias showing through.

I suppose that at some point down the line it could be the Democrats in danger of pushing us into some form of radical fanaticism, but in our current political landscape it's the right wingers I have my eye on.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

All I know is, we'll be a lot closer to a reasonable, substance based political system when one simple thing happens:

When representatives of an ideology tell us about their ideology, and what they want to do, and STOP telling us about their opponents ideology, and what they want to do.

Hear Hear!

 

[applecorped]

All I know is, we'll be a lot closer to a reasonable, substance based political system when one simple thing happens:

When representatives of an ideology tell us about their ideology, and what they want to do, and STOP telling us about their opponents ideology, and what they want to do.

Anytime I see anything advertised by the means of discrediting the competition, it's a red flag. Tell me what you do, don't tell me what your competition does wrong.

This is the biggest problem of all. Both sides just insist on constantly demonizing and destroying the other sides credibility. It's the pure focus of first attack for too many people. Exaggerated beyond ethical limits. Lies, misrepresentation.. whatever it takes... TO DESTROY!

You don't have any business telling me what my opinion really is, or what my beliefs really constitute. Tell me what you will do, and keep your rhetoric and deplorably dishonest hyperbole to yourself.

Cheers!

 

[pipelineaudio]

But on the fringes there is an active group (the minutemen, various militias, stormfront, etc) that reject democracy and forsee force as the only way to save the nation (the Turner Diaries crew).

In what way do the minutemen reject democracy?

You do realize that we are a democracy in a sense that we democratically elect leaders but we are a republic in the sense that we have constitutionally protected rights that are not supposed to be infringed upon by mob rule right?

 

[Fiona]

Nothing of the sort was asserted.

Really? How do you interpret this?

his own example of "it is the fault of the Jews and Bolsheviks"? He's being an accuser in his own right, no?

He compared the current political climate to the atmosphere that served as a culture to Nazism. There is a reason he mentioned the Nazis.

It is highly irresponsible.

There is a reason he mentioned the Nazis. They are the best known example of a totalitarian regime arising out of a democracy.

I do not think it is irresponsible to raise the questions he raises. I do not know if he is right, because I am not american and the differences in your culture make it extremely hard for an outsider to judge. From here your politics appear to be very polarised indeed: many on all sides seem to share a deep distrust of politics and politicians: I am not talking about those conspiracy theorists who believe in shadowy forces who are covertly in control: I am talking about those who believe that there is no honour or good intent in any politician at all.

Now most of my understanding of the american political landscape comes from JREF. I think most of the people here are good and intelligent individuals. Many seem to support Obama and to have hope that he can and will work for good ends.(ETA: I do not mean that only those who support Obama are good guys, I hasten to add: I am only saying that that trust is evidence of commitment to politics and a continuing belief that that is the way to solve problems) So it is obvious that the distaste and disillusion for politics as an enterprise is not universal or anything like it. And the enthusiasm of both sides seems to still be high if I am to judge from the rallies and conventions which have been reported here. I do not know what the level of engagement is, and I see that turnout in the 2004 and 2008 presidential elections was quite high compared to the preceding decades: that may be a legitimate measure of engagement and may well be evidence that Chomsky has read the political situation quite wrong.

But that does not reassure me for this reason: the mindset which seems more prevalent also seems to be growing in this country and I do think that this is in part a consequence of the influence of the right on our media in economic circumstances which have led to increasing inequality over a long period. We see a very small but growing vote for right wing parties such as the BNP: and I gather that right wing parties of that sort are also becoming stronger in some of mainland europe as well. There this may be accompanied by increasing support for very left wing parties too: but we don't have any of those left really. Though that too may change.

I can of course only judge from those I meet and speak to. Most of those are moderately left wing (raving commies from an american perspective perhaps; but moderate for here), and they consider that they have been disenfranchised. Of course this is a very small and skewed sample, so it may not reflect a wider trend. But it is not a comfortable place to be, and most of us will vote SNP in 2010: not because we are particularly in favour of independence but because there is no apparent alternative. I have no idea what the english or welsh people of the same stripe will do. But if they feel the same way they will do something, presumably. Some of the right wing who are suffering from the recession and from economic hardship also feel disenfranchised I think and this seems to be a source of support for extreme right wing parties. This is a small trend and not very scary as yet. But it is not nothing

There are protective factors, certainly: I do not expect them to fail. But to ignore this is what seems to me to be irresponsible.

 

[Oliver]

You don't even vote.

So you're neither a liberal or a conservative, you're literally "nothing".

Well, I actually voted in this years election - for the first time. And it was a liberal party.