Is ours a Christian civilization?

[Darth Rotor]

I believe the Knights Templar got around it by charging some kind of fee for services that wasn't officially interest.

Which attracted the interest of a certain French King ...

 

[Hux]

Hey, who's up for some sinning? Anyone else feeling a strong impulse to go out and increase the amount of sin in the world? Anyone? Hands up if you want to sin with me!

I'm not sure. Can I see a picture of you first?

 

[KarlG]

I understand he wields a big hammer if that helps

 

[AWPrime]

Darth Rotor

“Would Western Civilization have developed democracy, capitalism and science without Christianity?”

Once the Romans conquered Europe and introduced their language and Christian superstition to the peoples they vanquished, Western Civilization and Christian influence have been intrinsically linked.

The christian influence came after the Roman one.

The English term “Alphabet” is not only derived from the names of first two letters of the Greek writing system, it is also derived from the Canaanite-Hebrew names of the first two letters of the Phoenician writing system: ’aleph beyth. Our English language appears to have many of its roots firmly planted in the Middle East and the Old Sacred Stories of the Holy Land.

Question: how can it be both? The Greek connection is clear, the hebrew connection seems to be lacking. If anything the resemblance could originate from earlier greek-hebrew interaction.

 

[pakeha]

Which attracted the interest of a certain French King ...

And gave rise to 'Friday the 13th'.

Still, I've always had the idea that the fall of Constantinople, with the influx of Arab translations of Greek knowledge to the West via refugees was the mainspring of the Rennaissance.

 

[Aepervius]

Sigh. Theory vs practice.

Those taboos (usury) didn't stop the Fugger and MEdici bankers, among others, from setting up an international fianancial network. Heck, a Medici became Pope.

DR

I believe the Knights Templar got around it by charging some kind of fee for services that wasn't officially interest.

But as you recognize in all the case it was a work around, or at least an obstacle.

So yeah, it developped, but it developped DESPITE christianity.

There isn't anything in christianity which make banking developpment a sure fire conclusion.

 

[Autumnman]

Christian influence & Alphabet origin

The christian influence came after the Roman one.


Question: how can it be both? The Greek connection is clear, the hebrew connection seems to be lacking. If anything the resemblance could originate from earlier greek-hebrew interaction.

AWPrime: After 312 CE Roman Emperor Constantine restructured the foundations of imperial power; gradually he transferred the empire’s basic allegiance from the gods of Rome to the foreign Christian God. When this reconstruction was complete (around 325 CE or so) Roman influence and Christian influence became synonymous. At least that is my understanding of this period of Roman and European history. If I am missing something, please point it out to me.

AWPrime asks, “How can it be both?” {referring to the English Alphabet being connected to not only the Greek writing system, but also the Canaanite/Phoenician writing system}?

Over thirty-five hundred years ago the original ’aleph beyth was invented by the Canaanite/Phoenician Semitic people. This Semitic ’aleph beyth became the model for hundreds of other alphabets{including but not limited to}: English, French, Latin, Greek, Latvian, Russian, Arabic, Turkish, Persian, Sanskrit, Hebrew, and Swahili (The Alphabet Effect, pg. 19). I hope that answers your question, “How can it be both?”

If I have not satisfactorily answered either of your questions, please feel free to press on for more clarification.

Autumnman

 

[AWPrime]

AWPrime: After 312 CE Roman Emperor Constantine restructured the foundations of imperial power; gradually he transferred the empire’s basic allegiance from the gods of Rome to the foreign Christian God. When this reconstruction was complete (around 325 CE or so) Roman influence and Christian influence became synonymous. At least that is my understanding of this period of Roman and European history. If I am missing something, please point it out to me.

Well the fact is that Roman was well spread (and thus also their influence) into Europe even before 312 CE. In fact at 98 CE cities in the Netherlands started to get Roman city rights.

AWPrime asks, “How can it be both?” {referring to the English Alphabet being connected to not only the Greek writing system, but also the Canaanite/Phoenician writing system}?

Over thirty-five hundred years ago the original ’aleph beyth was invented by the Canaanite/Phoenician Semitic people. This Semitic ’aleph beyth became the model for hundreds of other alphabets{including but not limited to}: English, French, Latin, Greek, Latvian, Russian, Arabic, Turkish, Persian, Sanskrit, Hebrew, and Swahili (The Alphabet Effect, pg. 19). I hope that answers your question, “How can it be both?”

So we got it from the Greeks and they got it from the Semitics. Now remains the question of how much the Greeks developed it before others started from their version.

 

[Autumnman]

Well the fact is that Roman was well spread (and thus also their influence) into Europe even before 312 CE. In fact at 98 CE cities in the Netherlands started to get Roman city rights.


So we got it from the Greeks and they got it from the Semitics. Now remains the question of how much the Greeks developed it before others started from their version.

I am uncertain about the point(s) you are making in regard to the original question of this thread, "Is ours a Christian civilization?"

The English Language has been largely influenced by Greco-Roman-Christian conquest of Europe, as far as I have been able to understand. The biblical stories of the Old and New Testaments have a direct impact on the evolution of the English Language, as far as I have been able to ascertain. There is little or no sign of the ancient Greco-Roman gods having a profound impact on the evolution of the English Language as far as I know. Roman-Christianity and the "Universal" or "Catholic" Church of Rome continues to influence Western Civilization to this day.

Thanks for your response, AWPrime.
All the best,
Autumnman

 

[AWPrime]

I am uncertain about the point(s) you are making in regard to the original question of this thread, "Is ours a Christian civilization?"

The English Language has been largely influenced by Greco-Roman-Christian conquest of Europe, as far as I have been able to understand. The biblical stories of the Old and New Testaments have a direct impact on the evolution of the English Language, as far as I have been able to ascertain. There is little or no sign of the ancient Greco-Roman gods having a profound impact on the evolution of the English Language as far as I know. Roman-Christianity and the "Universal" or "Catholic" Church of Rome continues to influence Western Civilization to this day.

My comment was aimed to point at that christianity was one of the ingredients and it wasn't one of the first to be added.

The biggest contribution from Christianity in my eye was its quest for total power and the fall out that came from it (example: discrediting perfect authority). But then again if Christianity hadn't existed then that might have happened sooner.

As for the English language here is a clue -> Victory. Also, western civilization isn't based just upon the the English language.

 

[Mark6]

Hah, well, it's true. Of course, I don't see the age of reason as the motive behind it.

People want to do do their own thing, so they have just turned away from the Bible. They pick and choose what they want to follow, and society has suffered for it.

People are less happy now than they have been in half a century, and there is a reason for it. Human nature has screwed everything up, and will continue to do so.

I know you would like to think we are headed towards some sort of technological humanist utopia, but I think that is as much of a fantasy, as you do the second coming.

Look at the rise of depression in society, this world where we just strive for thing, and we become dead inside, and it's no wonder we turn to drugs, porn, mass consumerism, and narcissistic self satisfaction.

People are becoming more and more unhappy with this life, and nothing they do will fill the hole left by God.

I have seen nothing to lend credence to the idea that we will ever have any kind of better world outside of a God ruled one.

If you have evidence that says otherwise please show it.

My evidence otherwise is the almost perfect correlation between level of religiosity in societies and crime rate. The state in US with lowest crime rate is Oregon. It is also the least religious one, with 18% of people self-identifying as atheists. Mississipi is the state at the opposite end of BOTH statistics.

This holds worldwide too. Countries which are essentially atheist, like Norway and Japan, have extremely low crime rate. Very religious countries like Brazil and Nigeria have extremely high, second only to "failed states" like Somalia (which are pretty heavy on religion as well).

Sorry, Ham, but while your perception of depression may be right, your perception of its causes/correlations is dead wrong.

 

[Piscivore]

My evidence otherwise is the almost perfect correlation between level of religiosity in societies and crime rate. The state in US with lowest crime rate is Oregon. It is also the least religious one, with 18% of people self-identifying as atheists. Mississipi is the state at the opposite end of BOTH statistics.

This holds worldwide too. Countries which are essentially atheist, like Norway and Japan, have extremely low crime rate. Very religious countries like Brazil and Nigeria have extremely high, second only to "failed states" like Somalia (which are pretty heavy on religion as well).

Sorry, Ham, but while your perception of depression may be right, your perception of its causes/correlations is dead wrong.

Not to mention the perceived "rise in depression" might be bacause of increased ability to diagnose and treat depression, rather than the "bury your feelings and keep praying" strategy of past centuries.

 

[Autumnman]

My comment was aimed to point at that christianity was one of the ingredients and it wasn't one of the first to be added.

The biggest contribution from Christianity in my eye was its quest for total power and the fall out that came from it (example: discrediting perfect authority). But then again if Christianity hadn't existed then that might have happened sooner.

As for the English language here is a clue -> Victory. Also, western civilization isn't based just upon the the English language.

You are saying, "Christianity was one of the ingredients" but "it wasn't one of the first."
Point taken. What was one of the first ingredients added to western civilization that had as great an influence in fashioning what we now regard as western civilization?

You are correct, western civilization is not solely based upon the English Language. However, the English Language has become the most promenant language of western civilization. At least that is what I have been able to ascertain. What other language has more dominated western civilization than the English Language?

All the best,
Autumnman

 

[AWPrime]

You are saying, "Christianity was one of the ingredients" but "it wasn't one of the first."
Point taken. What was one of the first ingredients added to western civilization that had as great an influence in fashioning what we now regard as western civilization?

The first stage was the Classical West: Roman, Greek, Celtic, Germanic, etc. From them we gained literary, legal, scientific, political, artistic and philosophical legacies.

You are correct, western civilization is not solely based upon the English Language. However, the English Language has become the most promenant language of western civilization. At least that is what I have been able to ascertain. What other language has more dominated western civilization than the English Language?

The dominate position of English is relatively late. Most of the time there was a balance between languages or only a slight domination of the other languages.

 

[Piscivore]

You are saying, "Christianity was one of the ingredients" but "it wasn't one of the first."
Point taken. What was one of the first ingredients added to western civilization that had as great an influence in fashioning what we now regard as western civilization?

You are correct, western civilization is not solely based upon the English Language. However, the English Language has become the most promenant language of western civilization. At least that is what I have been able to ascertain. What other language has more dominated western civilization than the English Language?

All the best,
Autumnman

French? Latin?

 

[Autumnman]

The first stage was the Classical West: Roman, Greek, Celtic, Germanic, etc. From them we gained literary, legal, scientific, political, artistic and philosophical legacies.


The dominate position of English is relatively late. Most of the time there was a balance between languages or only a slight domination of the other languages.

AWPrime:
I think you are missing the point of this thread: "Is ours a Christian civilization?" that is the title of this particular thread. I am attempting to address the spread of Christian doctrine within "our civilization"; our civilization being "western civilization.
It is not my intent to diminish any other contribution (of which there are too many to mention), but to point to what appears to be a dominant Christian influence on Western Civilization.

All the best,
Autumnman

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Except that's not what the "Christian civilization" argument usually means. If you read even just the OP and the other questions from Tim, it's pretty clear that the apologists give Christianity a lot more credit than being one of the many ingredients.

 

[AWPrime]

AWPrime:
I think you are missing the point of this thread: "Is ours a Christian civilization?" that is the title of this particular thread. I am attempting to address the spread of Christian doctrine within "our civilization"; our civilization being "western civilization.
It is not my intent to diminish any other contribution (of which there are too many to mention), but to point to what appears to be a dominant Christian influence on Western Civilization.

Sure we had christian influence, but the contribution of Christianity to the success of western civilization is minor. When Christianity came into power it made a real attempt to destroy the classical legacies, thankfully it wasn't completely successful.

The western civilization didn't start out christian and thankfully wasn't destroyed by christianity but it managed to tame christianity just in time. If one wants to see a christian civilization, then look for a place where it isn't tamed.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Still, I've always had the idea that the fall of Constantinople, with the influx of Arab translations of Greek knowledge to the West via refugees was the mainspring of the Rennaissance.

I don't think so. The Crusades had already brought back plenty of info and interaction, and somewhat concurrent with that, the influence of "Muslim world" scholarship predated that conquest by a couple of centuries in Al Andalus. Cordoba, Toledo, Granada ...

The major influence of the fall of Constantinople was the guarantee three of centuries of the Caliphate's oppression/rule in the southeastern sectors of Europe, which in time led us to the genocides in Bosnia ...

DR

 

[pakeha]

Thanks for the analysis, darth.